Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center

Episode 44 - Training, Humility, and Learning from Others

Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:02:13 -0700

Erik Apland talks with Lindsay Amundson about the importance of a culture of humility and open communication in training and mentorship. They also discuss the challenges of working with interagency qualifications while not being in a fire or land management agency.

Episode 43 - How to Use Next Gen Task Books

Mon, 01 Dec 2025 09:00:00 -0700

Travis Dotson and Erik Apland share crucial information on how to be successful and use all the support material that comes along with NWCG Next Generation Task Books. IPTM overview: Incident Performance and Training Modernization

Episode 42 - Outliers

Tue, 30 Sep 2025 08:13:32 -0700

Erik Apland and Travis Dotson explore “outliers” in wildland fire – unusual incidents that highlight less-discussed hazards and how we prepare ourselves to respond to events we don’t expect.

To read more about each of the incidents mentioned, follow the links below:

Three Creeks Fire Electrical Shock: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/three-creeks-fire-electrical-shock-2025

Oregon Mop Up Electrical Shock: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/oregon-mop-up-electric-shock-2025

Ninetyeight Fire Boating Accident: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/ninetyeight-fire-boating-accident-2025

Controller Bay Airboat Incident: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/controller-bay-airboat-incident-2025

Aggie Creek Fire Spike Camp Hit by Tree: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/aggie-creek-fire-spike-camp-hit-by-tree-2025

Trees Falling on Tents Blog Post: https://wildfirelessons.wpcomstaging.com/2025/08/26/trees-falling-on-tents/

Episode 41 - Lessons on Structure Protection Operations

Mon, 04 Aug 2025 08:00:00 -0700

Structure Protection Specialist Hunter Bell III discusses his unusual career trajectory into wildland fire, and shares lessons on structure protection principles and the use of sprinklers to effectively protect structures without causing water damage.

This discussion is a follow-up to Hunter’s blog post: https://wildfirelessons.wpcomstaging.com/2025/06/02/structures-get-flooded-can-we-rethink-our-tactics/

Download Hunter’s Structure Protection Handy-Dandy: Structure Protection Tactics Guide | Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center

Sprinklers for Wildland Fire Structure Protection Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QloMXNhsBA0

Episode 40 - Humble Accountability

Fri, 30 May 2025 08:00:00 -0700

Crew Captain Ben McLane describes what values-based leadership in the wildland fire service can look like in 2025. Listen in for some tangible tips on leading in a way that produces high-quality performance and maximizes well-being. This discussion is a follow-up to Ben's blog post: https://wildfirelessons.wpcomstaging.com/2025/05/20/humble-accountability/

Episode 39 - The Importance of New Perspectives

Tue, 22 Apr 2025 09:00:00 -0700

Orlando Genao and Erin Hurley discuss their recent multi-month detail experiences at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC) with Travis Dotson, the LLC’s Analyst. Orlando served as the LLC’s Acting Director, and Erin worked as the LLC’s Acting Operations Manager. Listen as they share their expectations, experiences, and takeaways from time spent working at the LLC.

Episode 38 - Lessons from 2024

Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:00:00 -0700

Erik Apland and Travis Dotson discuss stories and insights collected by the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center in 2024. This episode focuses on the specific takeaways highlighted by events in the field over the past year.

Episode 37 - Unplanned Leadership Moments

Tue, 22 Oct 2024 09:00:00 -0700

Travis Dotson, Erik Apland, and Rebecca Sorensen discuss “unplanned leadership moments;” decisions that need to be made when the boss isn’t there.

Episode 36 - 30 Years of Growth: The Wildland Fire Service After 1994

Mon, 10 Jun 2024 13:51:13 -0700

Kelly Woods visits with Larry Sutton, Jim Cook, and Chris Wilcox to capture their reflections on the 30 years that have passed since the watershed 1994 fire season when the wildland fire community lost 34 firefighters in the line of duty. That season changed the trajectory of the wildland fire program and was a catalyst in the development of many things we take for granted today. Larry, Jim, and Chris provide their perspective on what was happening culturally at that time and as these significant changes began. They also share lessons on how to be an agent of change.

Episode 35 - Mental Health: First Steps to Getting Help

Fri, 24 May 2024 09:00:00 -0700

Kelly Woods and Travis Dotson visit with Riva Duncan and Dr. Patty O’Brien about some considerations when deciding to seek therapy, how to find a therapist, and how to get the most out of the experience when working with a therapist. The conversation covers many topics about mental health, including personal experiences related to therapy and the importance of having a support network.

Episode 34 - Lessons From 2023

Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:17:15 -0700

Travis Dotson and Kelly Woods talk about lessons the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center received in learning reviews and reports in 2023. Travis highlights some themes and shares his unique insights on data. Throughout the conversation, Travis and Kelly reference the Annual Incident Review Summary and the latest issue of Two More Chains which feature many of the lessons discussed and provide links to the source material. These documents can be downloaded at lessons.wildfire.gov.

Episode 33 - Firefighter Cancer and Wellbeing

Fri, 15 Mar 2024 09:00:00 -0700

Erik Apland talks with Erin Phelps and Kat DuBose about wildland fire presumptive illness legislation, some lessons associated with filing a cancer-related claim with the Department of Labor’s Office of Workers’ Compensation Programs, and firefighter exposure to environmental hazards. Erin and Kat define what presumptive illness means for wildland firefighters and share their insights on when someone should file a claim, how and when additional illnesses may be added to the list, and what the agencies are doing to address wildland fire health and wellbeing.

Episode 32 - Chance, Pain, Healing, and Hope

Wed, 07 Feb 2024 14:36:23 -0700

Kelly Woods visits with Tyler Doggett in a candid conversation about some of the mental health difficulties that often accompany a career in wildland fire. Tyler openly shares his story which includes a chance search and rescue, a shattered femur, battles with alcohol, and the loss of loved ones. It also includes the power of gaining perspective, seeking help, healing, and hope.

If you or someone you know is experiencing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, contact the Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24/7 at 988.

Incidents central to Tyler’s story:

South Canyon Fire 1994: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/south-canyon-fire-entrapment-fatalities-1994

Bishop Fire 2020: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/bishop-fire-seat-fatalities-2020

Episode 31 - Two More Chains – Fire Workers

Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:00:00 -0700

Travis Dotson and Erik Apland discuss the most recent issue of the quarterly publication Two More Chains centered on the wildland fire worker. Travis and Erik talk about the history and explore a few of the hot buttons we face today as fire seasons and the workforce change. Download the issue at: https://lessons.wildfire.gov/two-more-chains

Episode 30 - Data Points – Your UTV is on Fire

Mon, 20 Nov 2023 15:08:54 -0700

Kelly Woods and Travis Dotson discuss the latest edition of Data Points that focuses on UTV fires. Data Points is the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center publication designed to highlight a collection of similar events that signal a need for specific action. The action recommended here: Equip all UTVs with an accessible and serviceable fire extinguisher. Data Points can be found on our website: www.lessons.wildfire.gov. Click on the products tab on the menu bar.

Episode 29 - Two More Chains – Lessons from Firing Operations

Fri, 29 Sep 2023 08:56:00 -0700

Kelly Woods and Travis Dotson discuss incidents featured in the latest issue of Two More Chains, the quarterly publication produced at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center. Each of the featured incidents involves firing operations. Their lessons are diverse and meaningful. More information on each of these incidents can be found on our website, www.lessons.wildfire.gov. Click on the Incident Review Database tab and start searching.

Two More Chains | Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (wildfire.gov)

Episode 28 - Lessons from 2022

Fri, 19 May 2023 11:00:48 -0700

Kelly Woods and Travis Dotson discuss lessons collected at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center in 2022. The centerpiece of the conversation is recent analysis of incident reports and learning reviews submitted by the field. Listen in to discover new information, action you can take, and nuances to facilitate learning.

Episode 27 - Learning and Leaving a Legacy

Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:00:00 -0700

Kelly Woods talks with Sarah Fisher and Chad Fisher about what learning in the wildland fire service means to them. Sarah and Chad describe their different experiences landing them both near the top of their respective organizations. They each discuss their path and the lessons they learned along the way. Throughout the conversation, Sarah and Chad highlight their perspectives on learning and legacy. They also provide a glance into their world balancing careers and family time.

Episode 26 - When Options Run Out: The Human Side of an Entrapment

Fri, 26 Aug 2022 09:52:25 -0700

Travis Dotson talks with Brian Crowley about his experience during the entrapment and fire shelter deployment on the Bridger Foothills Fire in Montana in 2020. Brian offers some perspective, not only on surviving as options disappear, but also on supporting each other during the tough times.

To read the Bridger Foothills Facilitated Learning Analysis visit: Bridger Foothills Fire Entrapment and Shelter Deployment 2020 | Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (wildfire.gov)

Episode 25 - Fireline Lessons - Tangible Take-Aways from Recent Incidents

Thu, 26 May 2022 08:00:00 -0700

Kelly Woods talks with Travis Dotson about lessons gathered from wildland fire incidents occurring in the 2021 fire year. This conversation centers around the Annual Incident Review Summary, a yearly publication based on an in-depth review and analysis of accident reports from the previous fire year. Tune in for some wild stories and a few handy lessons from real-life events.

Follow along or plan your next training day with the 2021 Incident Review Summary

Episode 24 - Family Business – Two Generations Talk Fire and What’s Important Through the Years

Thu, 16 Dec 2021 12:06:15 -0700

Kelly Woods talks with Beth Lund and her daughter Allison Lund about the dynamics of two generations of the same family forging careers in wildland Fire. They highlight how even though things have changed across the years, that which grounds them remains the same. Beth and Allison also offer insights on leadership, identity, difficult decisions, and family.

Episode 23 - Reading, Reflecting, and Changing Behavior

Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:36:52 -0700

Kelly Woods talks with Erik Apland about his assignment to read all of the entrapment reports housed in the LLC Incident Review Database. Erik provides perspective on the evolution of reports spanning over a century. He highlights how old reports contain modern topics and he also provides some unique thoughts on PPE. In addition, Erik discusses how reading the reports has changed him and will affect his future actions.

Episode 22 - An Entrapment Survival Story: Before, During and After

Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:45:22 -0700

In a conversation with Travis Dotson, Chris Fry shares the powerful story of his entrapment and shelter deployment on the 2006 Mudd Fire. We learn several key details about what happened that day. Chris discusses the lessons he has gained during his healing process and how the post-deployment mental health aspects of his experience are what truly motivates Chris to share his story.

To see more documentation on the 2006 Mudd Fire:

Mudd Fire Engine Entrapment 2006 | Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (wildfire.gov)

Episode 21 - Tree Felling Accidents...What The Numbers Say

Thu, 22 Apr 2021 12:19:01 -0700

Travis Dotson and Alex Viktora discuss the Tree Felling Accident Analysis – a report comparing 53 different tree felling accidents.

Topics covered include:

Predicting Tree Reactions
Hung-Up Trees
Helmets
Two People at the Base
Area Control
Escape Routes
Accidents During Training

If you have anything to do with chainsaws on the fireline…tune in.

Download the report at: Tree Felling Accident Analysis | Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (wildfire.gov)

Episode 20 - Command Presence

Mon, 03 Aug 2020 07:49:40 -0700

A conversation with Monica Morrison on Command Presence.

What is it?

What does it look and sound like?

How do you get it?

Episode 19 - Transitions

Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:00:00 -0700

Travis Dotson and Brit Rosso have a great discussion about transitions, both on and off the fireline.

For more on this topic, check out the Fall 2018 issue of Two More Chains.

Episode 18 - Slow and Steady: A Conversation Between Travis Dotson and Andrew Addey

Wed, 29 May 2019 13:41:35 -0700

Andrew Addey is currently a Forest Training Officer, a position he landed after ten years on the Sawtooth Interagency Hotshot Crew.

Travis and Andrew chatted about a ton of important topics, including:

Growing our perspective on the job of a Line Officer.
Expanding our training beyond the "traditional" courses.
The San Antonio Fire Hit by Tree and Medical Extraction.
Preparing more than just radio drivers for emergency command roles.
Learning from Military Crew Advisor assignments.

Episode 17 - Entrapments

Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:00:32 -0700

Why Talk About Entrapments?

In January 2018, as part of work on the 2017 Annual Incident Review Summary, LLC staffers Travis and Alex recorded this discussion about entrapments. Listen to their wide-ranging conversation to find out more about entrapments, what they really are, why we're reluctant to use the term “Entrapment”—and why we should use this term more often.

To read more about entrapments in 2017, check out the 2017 Annual Incident Review Summary (Download Now).

Curious to know more about the Wagon Box incident that is discussed in this podcast? Check it out here.

Episode 16 - Bad Apples

Mon, 28 May 2018 09:49:33 -0700

In this podcast, Travis Dotson and Brit Rosso introduce the concept of the "Bad Apple" as it applies to the business of wildland fire. To do so, we take a close look at one of our heroes, Paul Gleason, and some decisions Paul made back in 2000 on a fire some of you may have never heard of.

For more on the topics of Bad Apples, Paul Gleason, and this mystery fire, be sure to check out the Spring 2018 Issue of Two More Chains.

Episode 15 - The Importance of Identity

Wed, 06 Dec 2017 11:52:44 -0700

In this podcast, we hear from Travis Dotson--a regular on the podcast--and Brit Rosso, the Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center and podcast newcomer.

In the discussion, we try to make sense of the super complex and convoluted topic of "Identity." Travis and Brit tackle a wide range of topics, including:

What does it mean to be "All-In?"
What are all the ways your identity can get "smashed"?
What do we struggle with when we leave the fireline?
Do you "throw rocks" at folks struggling with retirement?

For even more on the topic of Identity, be sure to check out the Fall 2017 Issue of Two More Chains.

Episode 14 - Nuttall Fire Series: Thomas Taylor, Flagstaff IHC Sawyer

Tue, 04 Jul 2017 02:00:00 -0700

For the 2017 Week of Remembrance, the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center is focusing on a single shift on a single fire from July 2004, the Nuttall Fire, which burned on the Coronado National Forest in southeastern Arizona.

In the final episode of the Nuttall Fire podcast, we hear from Thomas Taylor. Thomas has had a remarkable fire career. He was at H-4 when the Nuttall Fire came to life. Thomas takes us through July 2, 2004 and beyond in this podcast.

Check out the Nuttall Fire video series on our YouTube channel!

Read about the Nuttall Fire on our Blog: www.wildfirelessons.wordpress.com

Be sure to also listen to the entire Nuttall Fire Series of Podcasts!

Episode 13 - Nuttall Fire Series: Jason Virtue, helicopter crewmember

Mon, 03 Jul 2017 02:00:00 -0700

In this episode, we hear from a firefighter who was assigned to the Nuttall Fire as a helicopter crewmember, Jason Virtue. Jason shares his perspective from Helibase and H-6, and provides us with a few key lessons from July 2, 2004

Check out the Nuttall Fire video series on our YouTube channel!

Read about the Nuttall Fire on our Blog: www.wildfirelessons.wordpress.com

Be sure to also listen to the entire Nuttall Fire Series of Podcasts!

Episode 12 - Nuttall Fire Series: Dan and Corey from Flagstaff IHC

Sun, 02 Jul 2017 02:00:00 -0700

In this episode, we hear from two former Squad Leaders from the Flagstaff Interagency Hotshot Crew, Dan Martin and Corey Robinson. Dan and Corey share their experiences and lessons from July 2, 2004 on the Nuttall Fire.

Check out the Nuttall Fire video series on our YouTube channel!

Read about the Nuttall Fire on our Blog: www.wildfirelessons.wordpress.com

Be sure to also listen to the entire Nuttall Fire Series of Podcasts!

Episode 11 - 2017 Week of Remembrance: Why Talk About Nuttall?

Wed, 28 Jun 2017 17:47:53 -0700

For the 2017 Week of Remembrance, the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center is focusing on a single shift on a single fire from 2004- the Nuttall Fire, which burned on the Coronado National Forest in southeastern Arizona.

Why?

Listen in to found out!

Episode 10 - How NOT to Catch Your UTV on Fire.

Wed, 07 Jun 2017 07:27:51 -0700

What if your UTV caught on fire? Yeah - it happens. In this mini-episode we get right to the point - why you need to take a real close look at the underside of your UTV.

Listen to this 5-minute episode - then go inspect that UTV!

Episode 9 - Burn Injuries, Why They’re a Big Deal

Fri, 19 May 2017 07:23:26 -0700

In this episode Alex and Travis chat about wildland firefighter burn injuries.

Why are they a bigger deal than we might think?
What can we do to make sure we get the treatment we need?
What are the lessons from past incidents?

Get the answers by listening!!

On the Blog:

Burn Injuries - Wrong Hurts!

Socks Matter

Other Related Materials:

NWCG Memo on Drip Torch Burn Injuries

Video: Drip Torch Fuel on Pants

Episode 8 - Fuel Geysers: A Conversation with Ralph Gonzales

Thu, 06 Apr 2017 14:19:57 -0700

Unfortunately, when it comes to fuel geysers, there are many popular misconceptions.

True or False:

"Fuel geysers only happen when it's hot.”

“Fuel geysers only happen with chainsaws.”

“The recent chainsaw recall will fix the fuel geyser issue."

In this Podcast—that features the latest insights from Ralph Gonzales, an engineer with the U.S. Forest Service—we focus on separating fact from fiction.

Listen to this conversation. Take the Quiz!

Read about one fuel geyser event mentioned in this podcast: Willow Peak Fire Burn Injury

Episode 7 - Drip Torch Leg Burns

Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:53:47 -0700

2016 marked the eighth year in a row that the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center has received at least one report of a serious burn injury on the leg related to drip torch use. This podcast is just 7 minutes long - a little booster shot of awareness on this topic with a couple of pointers to consider.

Put fire on the ground...not on your calf.

Torch Leg Burns

2015 Burn Injuries

Episode 6 - Scouting...High Risk?

Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:41:48 -0700

Do you like scouting? Do you acknowledge the risk involved? Chances are you take on more exposure than you realize whenever you "go take a look". Some super dialed-in folks have died scouting:

Sawtooth Rx Entrapment (2003)

Devils Den Fatality (2006)

Frog Fire Entrapment Fatality (2015)

Episode 5 - The Bull Fire Entrapment

Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:14:18 -0700

What is it actually like to "Wag Dodge" it? What does it feel like to realize you are in a bad spot? What are some things you can do to prepare for that moment? In this episode we hear it all directly from the survivor of an entrapment on the Bull Fire in Arizona. Don't just listen - use this story, the lessons shared, and the material linked below to learn something...it could save your skin.

Bull Fire Entrapment FLA Would You Hesitate To Use Your Fire Shelter?

Episode 4 - Lessons and Data

Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:59:41 -0700

Where do the lessons live? In this episode we discuss the relationship between lessons and data and why it matters. Along the way we wander through the following topics:

Clocks & Clouds
Knowing where the Medical Incident Report lives
The need for humility
Communication with Medivac Helicopters
The responsibility for relevance

Data from past years: Annual Incident Review Summaries

Episode 3 - The Contractor’s Dilemma

Thu, 06 Oct 2016 11:27:32 -0700

In this episode we tackle the "Contractor's Dilemma" - the idea that contract fire resources face different pressures that make some conversations about assignment risk more difficult. Is this an issue? Is it not? Take a listen and share your experiences with us. Tune in to get dialed!

2014 Incident Review Summary (pg. 9) (has a general description of the "dilemma")

Episode 2 - Emerging Lessons - 2016

Fri, 23 Sep 2016 12:05:52 -0700

Alex Viktora and Travis Dotson discuss emerging numbers and lessons from the year so far. Topics discussed include early season physical training medical emergencies, equipment burning up (including lessons about parking in the black), and tire failures. Tune in to get dialed!

2016 Incident Review Summary

Episode 1 - Chainsaws and Fire Season 2016: A Chat with Travis Dotson

Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:28:14 -0700

Travis Dotson, Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center Analyst, has been crunching the numbers on chainsaw incidents during the 2016 fire season. Listen in to hear his thoughts on chainsaws, and what sawyers and crew leaders might do differently based on what he's seen so far this season.