I wanted to have Anne-Marie on because I, admittedly, wasn’t familiar with legal incubators when she first mentioned it to me and I thought it was a great resource to share with all of you. 

In this episode, we discuss:

- Anne-Marie’s personal journey from traditional practice to a solo tax law practice to mentoring & coaching

- Legal incubators and how they might help you   

- Strategies to start and scale solo law firms  

- The potential in the untapped legal market 

- The rewards and hurdles of unconventional legal practice

- The power of intentional decision-making for your career trajectory

- Navigating career changes so you don’t let yourself get stuck

Connect with Megan!

2024 Focus Session: https://megansmiley.com/2024-focus-session

Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839

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Connect with Anne-Marie!

Website: https://www.modernjuris.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annemarierabago/

We explore her professional journey, from drama school to working with primates (yes, seriously - she got to sign with chimps), to law and beyond.

Kate shares with us how she's navigated the pressures of the legal profession, her adventures in legal tech marketing, and the ongoing career transition she’s navigating.

It’s an open and honest conversation that highlights that the road is rarely linear, and getting comfortable with change and uncertainty is the name of the game.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Kate's unorthodox leap from primate studies to law.  
• Kate’s path through various legal jobs, compassion fatigue, and burnout.
• Challenging the norms and status quo of the legal industry. 
• The crisis of identity that can come with career evolution.
• The tension between personal ambition and family and financial realities.
• Kate's success in landing and acclimatizing to a legal tech marketing role through humor and honesty.
• Tips on networking and seeking career advice, even if reaching out feels out of your comfort zone.
• Learning to trust your gut over outside opinions.   
• Kate's current thoughts around starting her own business and doing contracting work.
• The importance of taking conscious breaks and finding hobbies that reinvigorate you.
• The liberating yet anxiety-ridden process of forging a path without a clear career roadmap.
• Insider baseball discussion of keeping up with our podcasts

Connect with Megan!

Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Kate!

Legal Burnouts Website: https://www.thelegalburnouts.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-bridal/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Sejal realizing that litigation was a bad fit; she wanted to build workplace culture, not clean up messes
• Following your interests to build skills and open doors
• Leveraging your legal background in a business 
• Leaning into a growth mindset to move through imposter syndrome 
• Balancing purpose-driven work, family and finances 
• Navigating a non-linear path from employment to entrepreneurship
• Relying on your resourcefulness and self-trust rather than avoiding all risks
• The importance of networking and planting seeds for your long-term career growth

Connect with Megan!

Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Sejal!

Website: http://www.trainxtra.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sejalthakkar/

She also hosts the podcast Vixen Voice where she shares stories of Gen X women that have shed the traditional definition of success to pursue their life’s true passion.

April shares with us all of the twists, turns, and lessons she learned in her personal and professional journey.

Key Takeaways from April's Journey:

(1) Being open and flexible: Be open to your career path taking different turns, for both personal and professional reasons. As a person, you become more self-aware and you evolve. And life happens. So, be flexible and resourceful and continue to check in with what is right for you in each season.

(2) Overcoming setbacks and embracing growth: April opens up about her divorce and the challenges she faced during that time. Through self-reflection and connecting with other female entrepreneurs, she learned to embrace failure and rebuild an abundance mentality. Sometimes, the most difficult moments can inspire us to grow and find new paths to success.

(3) Balancing your feminine and masculine energies: April highlights the importance of understanding and embracing both feminine and masculine energies in work and life. It isn’t about gender, but instead about archetypal energy - like yin and yang. She invites us to balance the logical, action-oriented side of ourselves with our more intuitive, flowing intelligence.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The influence of parents on April’s career choice
• The pros and cons of being a young lawyer 
• April’s realization that the substance of work and lifestyle were not aligned with her values
• Leaving law practice and the country with April’s Italian husband
• Returning from abroad and to practice
• Navigating a career amidst personal upheaval 
• Recognizing your unique superpowers 
• Managing fear and embracing abundance 
• April’s transition to financial advisor
• Balancing masculine and feminine energies

Connect with Megan!

Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with April!

Website: https://www.vixengathering.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprilrroberts/

Vixen Voice Podcast: https://www.vixengathering.com/podcast

Prior to coaching, she was a Special Assistant to the President at the White House, a senior level appointee at the U.S. Department of Justice, an equity partner in two large, global law firms, and in-house counsel at a publicly traded company. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• How to be brave in your career moves
• That taking a risk to do something different teaches you that there’s not one “right” path
• Laura’s moves between private and public sector work 
• Laura’s advice on moving into government 
• How Laura enjoys the business side of practice and sees that it’s an area lawyers need support navigating 
• Understanding what the long game at big firm actually looks like 
• How to make informed decisions and not be an ostrich with your head in the sand

Connect with Megan!

Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Laura!

Website: https://www.lauraterrell.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauralterrell

We talk about the importance of keeping your personal true north in mind as you pivot. For Emily, that has meant centering freedom, flexibility and her interest in health & wellness in each stage of her career. 

She also reminds us that you don’t have to make one huge jump and stay there forever. Think about taking steps closer and closer to what you really want to do and/or finding jobs that give you space to explore different possibilities on the side.  

Finally, she gives us an insider view into the pluses and minuses of being a legal recruiter, for anyone who might be thinking about that as a possible career move.

Connect with Megan!

Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Emily!

Website:  https://www.whistlerpartners.com/team/emily-witt

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilywittslegalpath/

Podcast: https://beyondthelegallens.libsyn.com/

The Advocate’s Mic: www.advocatesmic.com

It looks different for each of us. Yet, our society (and our industry) tend to have a pretty narrow and uniform definition.

That's how so many of us get stuck climbing one particular type of success ladder. 

I encourage you to give yourself permission to personalize your definition of success. And in this episode, I’m giving you some tips on how to start doing that.

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Connect with Megan!

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megansmileyesq/

Her work is about fulfilling her client’s greatest potential by cultivating a way of being that energizes, strengthens, and enlivens every aspect of their life, including their mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health and well-being, relationships, finances, life experiences, creativity, and the desire for meaningful work.

We discuss Leah’s journey to embracing the calling of her creative side. She tells us about balancing her pragmatism with her more “irrational” life’s work, and how following the breadcrumbs of her inspiration has led to her running a multi-dimensional business that she finds incredibly fulfilling. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• How intentional reflection on different roles helped Leah discern what she did and didn’t enjoy doing
• Leah realized how essential creativity is to her happiness 
• A lot of us have a creative energy that’s calling us to be expressed, and not just in traditional artistic ways
• The fear of owning a creative and spiritual side in a world of lawyers
• Leah didn’t feel like fitting her creative side into small pockets on the side was enough
• Balancing pragmatism with taking a more creative/entrepreneurial path
• Leaning into what lit her up brought her back to life and seeing possibilities 
• It’s ok to protect your dream and keep it to yourself for a while
• The importance of expanding your circle of influence to include more creative/alternative thinkers
• Leah’s creative work has evolved into The Art School, a holistic container for creativity 

Connect with Megan!

Inner Wisdom Workshop: https://chiarawoods.com/inner-wisdom-workshop

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Leah!

Website: https://www.leahcb.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leahcb1/The Art School Podcast: https://www.leahcb.com/category/podcast/

We tackle the question of how lawyers and other left-brainers can engage with the world of woo.

Those of us in this category are grounded and practical people. We think critically, and aren’t off the deep end woo-woo…

But we’re curious. We’re open to thinking about the world and ourselves in new ways.

Many of our friends and clients seem intrigued by some of these modalities.

So - we decided to both have this conversation and create a workshop series.

A kind of primer for the woo-curious.

The workshop will be an education on the tenets of these modalities, and a discussion of how you might leverage them for your personal and professional growth.

We’re talking intuition & meditation, astrology, human design, hypnotherapy, and mediumship.

We start on May 31!

Inner Wisdom Workshop: https://chiarawoods.com/inner-wisdom-workshop

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Chiara!

Chiara's Website: hhttps://chiarawoods.com/

Dorna is on the Legal Services Corporation Emerging Leaders Council and a member of LAFLA's Advisory Board. She was named an ABA Legal Rebel and is on the Fastcase 50 list. 

In this conversation, we discussed:

• Dorna’s initial interest in the law was human rights issues
• She ended up in BigLaw and actually enjoyed it!
• Dorna did a lot of pro bono work with domestic violence victims, which prompted her to develop a platform to make legal services more accessible to them; and that evolved to Documate
• Getting to the point where she couldn’t run the business and work at the law full-time
• Her firm offered for her to go part-time, but she decided she wanted to focus completely on her business
• Dorna felt comfortable taking a leap knowing she could always go back to practice
• She experienced a huge learning curve, but found it easy to self-educate with all the resources available 
• Getting comfortable with what other people think of you making the jump from law to entrepreneurship 
• The fear of regret was larger than the fear of failure
• The importance of building a team that deeply believes in the core mission
• You don’t need to go to business school to start a successful business
• Working hard feels different when your heart is fully in it

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

~

Connect with Dorna!

Gavel’s Website: https://www.gavel.io/

And in this episode, I argue that it's still worth.

It has a lot to do with the fact that a heart-centered business is more than a job, it's a life project. And when you look at it like that, the journey is more than worth the cost.

~

The Sick of Being Stuck Workshop Series (Starts October 12): https://megansmiley.com/sick-of-being-stuck-workshop

There are so many nuggets of wisdom in this episode for anyone thinking about taking a leap into entrepreneurship. 

Specifically, we discuss:

• How the pandemic brought up some existential questions about how Janelle was spending her life
• Trusting in your ability to figure things out and be resilient 
• Immersing yourself with people doing what you want to do
• How Janelle publicly shared what she was doing, which helped get her business off the ground and grow organically
• Getting coaching support will help catapult you to the next level
• Janelle’s true north is the lifestyle she wants, not a particular business model
• Health insurance does not need to be a deal breaker

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

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Connect with Janelle!

Janelle’s Website: https://janellenicole.co/

It does. It depends on the coach, their approach, the intended outcome, the timeline, etc.

And I know how confusing and unhelpful that can sound. In a world where you’re already lacking clarity and feeling overwhelmed, I’m hoping to help bring some transparency to it - at least with respect to how I work.

So, in an attempt to demystify what it looks like in this episode I discuss:

• What coaching is versus consulting, and how my work is a mix
• What kinds of goals and challenges my coaching is tailored to  
• How to know if you’re a good fit for coaching
• How to identify if coaching isn’t for you, at least yet (just as important!)
• When it is time to explore coaching support
• The right energy and mindset to approach coaching with

~

Connect with Megan!

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

In this conversation, we discuss:

• How to embrace, rather than resist, your evolution
• How to connect with your personal values and desires
• How to explore and experiment without judgment 
• How to let go of other peoples' expectations and all the "shoulds" that weigh on you
• How it’s never too late to switch gears and honor your authentic self

Melanie sees this topic through the lens of personal style.

I see it with people who realize the practice of law (or traditional employment generally) isn’t aligned with who they are and how they want to live their next chapter.

It’s a really rich conversation that I know will resonate with so many of you.

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

~

Connect with Melanie!

Melanie’s Website: https://www.melanielippman.com/

Melanie’s Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/showupandbeseennow

Melanie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melanielippman/

In this episode, I share some ideas for how you can set yourself up for success and make this the year you get off the carousel of doom in your current career, find clarity, and make progress on the path to your new life.

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

I also shared some wise, if salty, words from my mom. 

It would be her birthday today. 

I recently came across a submission she made to her alumni magazine for her 25th reunion. Parts made me cry. Parts made me smile. And parts made me think I really would have enjoyed her. At 11, she was still just “mom” - not a whole person with interesting world views…

Anyway - here she is wrapping up her entry to the alumni magazine with a mic drop challenge to traditional success:

“I suppose that in conclusion, I should mention how essential my Wellesley experience was in shaping my life. Actually, I don’t think it was. I went through the four years longing to be out, and I’m sure I wasn’t taking advantage of all the intellectual possibilities. But I have learned that there are a lot of smart, achieving people in the world who didn’t go to Wellesley or anyplace like it and I get worn down by the self-congratulating, ‘aren’t we all great, we went to Wellesley’ attitude that comes through so oppressively in the pages of the alumna magazine.”

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

In this episode we discuss:

• Kristen realized that traditional law practice wasn’t the lifestyle she wanted to live
• She didn’t hate practice, but hated the system
• How Kristen decided to start her own firm
• Running the business and doing the legal work on her own didn’t worry her, but the fear of not finding clients and failing weighed heavily on her
• She decided she wanted this enough to fail trying
• There are some unknowns, but you can trust yourself to learn and figure things out
• Kristen tells us how she found her first clients
• There’s a growing trend of starting solo practices

Connect with Kristen!

Kristen Gyolai Website: https://kristengyolai.com/

Lure of Law Website: https://lureoflaw.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lureoflaw/

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

In this episode, we discuss:

• That Lauren followed her intuition to quit and travel
• How Lauren thought there was only one way to practice law, and it wasn’t for her
• The confusion of disconnecting from the label and identity of “lawyer”
• Lauren’s realization that freedom was her top value, and how that helped her create and follow aligned opportunities 
• Finding legal work on a consulting basis
• How Lauren’s personal growth journey led her to understand her interests and purpose more
• Human Design basics

Connect with Lauren!

Legally Different Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/legally-different/id1536355826

Book a Human Design Session: https://calendly.com/legallydifferent/human-design-foundational-1-hour?back=1&month=2022-06

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/legallydifferent/

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Getting into law to make a positive impact, but then taking a BigLaw job
• Feeling misaligned with your work, and coming to not care about it at all
• Prioritizing taking writing classes even with a crazy schedule
• Taking a bridge job to allow the time and space to pursue more writing
• Realizing that a lot of the roadblocks to making a change aren’t as immovable as we tell ourselves they are
• How to build a writing career
• How the Enneagram plays out for lawyers and writers 

Connect with Mary:

Website: https://maryadkinswriter.com/

Apply to The Book Incubator: https://www.thebookincubator.com/apply-novel-writing-program

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adkinsmary/

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

I had the pleasure of having Erika in a program I ran last summer, and seeing the leap she’s made in less than a year is really inspiring. Not surprising to me (as you’ll hear), but definitely inspiring. 

For anyone questioning whether you’re too deep into practice to leave now, or if there’s really time for a second act - this episode is for you.

Connect with Erika:

Website: https://www.erikacole.com/

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

In today’s episode, we discuss:

• How we define a heart-centered approach (to a job search or entrepreneurship)
• How this approach leads to more alignment and purpose
• Making internally informed decisions, rather than having your plans be externally dictated
• How to explore your creative or off-the-beaten-path interests
• How your lawyer brain gets in the way
• The mindset shifts people need to make to approach their career this way
• The Great Resignation 
• The importance of community and support

Find Elena:

Elena’s website: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/ 

Book a Consultation with Elena: https://will-online.teachable.com/a/aff_0d5ngvx3/external?affcode=97439_ds-nv8nb

Free Gift: High Five Miracle Morning Checklist

https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/high-5-miracle-morning/

FREE Masterclass: How to Leave (big) Law with Ease:  https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/leave-with-ease/

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

~

Books referenced:

William Ury, The Power of a Positive No

Elizabeth Gilbert, Big Magic

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

In this episode, Jessica talks about:

• What exactly a financial advisor is, compared to other financial professionals
• There’s no shame if you’re not on top of your finances (that’s the case for a lot of people)
• The process Jessica takes her clients through
• Strategies for people with student loans
• How to plan specifically when you’re considering entrepreneurship 
• It’s possible to plan, even when there are unknowns
• FIRE movement planning
• How much house you can afford

You can find Jessica at:

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call

Website: https://www.megansmiley.com

In this episode we discuss:

• Having work-life balance in government wasn’t enough for Marni
• She still woke up wishing her day away
• Marni followed her interest in real estate and got her license 
• Her approach was to give it a shot - and let it take you where it will
• She has now launched two businesses with her sister and a third on her own, leaning into her multiple interest areas 
• It’s ok to be multi-passionate and to evolve your career intuitively 
• Human Design can be a great tool for permission and validation 

You can find Marni at:

Blank Studio: https://www.blankstudionyc.com/

The Blank Farmhouse: https://www.theblankfarmhouse.com/

Work Related: https://www.work-related.co/

Well Plan: https://www.marniblank.com

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Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://bit.ly/yourcatalystcall

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Sigalle’s story really highlights the ability to carve your own path, define success by your own metrics, and create a career you love.

You can find Sigalle at:

Lawyer’s Who Lead Podcast: https://lawyerswholeadpodcast.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sigalle/

~

Connect with Megan!

Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://bit.ly/yourcatalystcall

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Emily followed her long-standing interest in psychology into coaching
• Emily wanted more control over her work and life, and realized self-employment was the best route for her

• The progression from thinking about a big jump to committing to it
• It’s possible to start while you’re still employed and before you’re fully “ready”
• Get clear on what your bottom line, sufficient income number is
• The early entrepreneurial experience

You can find Emily at:

Accessible Coaching Campaign: https://www.hirsekorncoaching.com/accessible-coaching

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilyhirsekorn/

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Connect with Megan!

Private Podcast Waitlist: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/6192f9743a0e5bcf6f54234d

Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://bit.ly/yourcatalystcall

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Seth talks to us about his evolution from medical school student to big law associate to independent law firm owner and entrepreneur. His story really shows how you can design a multi-faceted career around your interests if you have the courage to go for it.

You can find Seth at:

Free Gift - The Freedom Blueprint: https://sethpaulbradley.lpages.co/freedomblueprint/

Passive Income Attorney Website: https://passiveincomeattorney.com/

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sethpaulbradley

~

Connect with Megan!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

In this episode, we discuss:

• Morgan had both firm and governmental jobs
• She considered trying to become a judge
• After giving it every possible shot, she accepted that it wasn’t just a job problem, it was a career problem
• Morgan initially considered some JD-preferred jobs as an obvious next step, but quickly realized that none of those appealed to her
• Morgan went back to the drawing board thinking about her interests
• She felt drawn to technology and the start-up world, particularly because of how different the mentality is to the legal world
• Morgan was worried her family would be disappointed, but also knew she had to make a change - she’s the one who has to live her life
• She told anyone who would listen that she was looking to get into tech, leading to connections and information
• Morgan kept coming back to tech sales, which leveraged transferable skills and checked a lot of boxes for her
• She had confidence in her capacity to learn because she was both committed and interested
• She found a way to effectively communicate her unique story as a positive to potential employers
• You will be your biggest hindrance, so learn to get out of your own way

You can find Morgan on…

https://www.linkedin.com/in/morganlthomas/

~

Connect with Megan!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

In this episode, we discuss:

• Marie had been hoping to do environmental law in some capacity, but that didn’t pan out
• She ended up at the Customs & Border Protection Agency for a decade
• Working within such an entrenched bureaucracy eventually got too stifling 
• She developed anxiety and depression (it’s not just big law that can impact you in that way)
• Her family moved and she decided to take time off to focus on raising her son 
• She got into part-time freelance grant writing, testing it first with some volunteer jobs
• Marie worried about finances and wanted to do something that could sustain her family, if needed, but also be flexible 
• She transitioned to content writing for law firms 
• Freelance writing is a great thing to experiment with on the side, and build up some extra funds
• She’s built a life and career around her values and priorities

You can find Marie on…

https://www.facebook.com/groups/woolies 

~

Connect with Megan!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Heather came out of college feeling adrift without a clear path to follow
• She went to law school somewhat on a whim, because it was at least an extension of learning
• Heather ended up working for legal aid in Hawaii
• Her best professional experience was based on a highly collaborative environment
• Heather decided to move to the Bay Area and ended up having to take a firm job 
• She felt deeply misaligned doing big corporate work
• Heather quit from her honeymoon
• She went back to the core of what she enjoyed in previous roles and her core values
• Heather decided to teach high school, and has been happily doing it for a decade
• The best piece of advice she ever got was “you are never stuck; you always have choices”

Connect with Megan!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

In this episode we discuss:

• Rachel largely enjoyed her practice first as a public prosecutor, then at the Board of Elections 
• Rachel came to a place in her personal life where she hired a life coach, and that ended up changing her trajectory 
• Rachel became a certified life coach on the side 
• She didn’t leave law because she didn’t enjoy practice, but because she felt drawn more strongly to something else
• Although other people warned her otherwise, she always felt she could go back to law after coaching
• Rachel’s practice has evolved from relationship coaching for lawyers to more general practice around embracing your full self and owning it
• You don’t have to have a huge problem or official diagnosis to justify getting help
• Trust if you’re called to something that it’s worth pursuing

Connect with Megan!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

~

You can find Rachel on…

https://www.rachelcollcoaching.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/rachel-coll-coaching/about/

https://www.instagram.com/rachelelizabethcoll/

In this episode, we discuss:

• How David got into academia as non-tenure track professor
• Tips on getting into adjunct teaching 
• David started an online course (MOOC) that ended up getting licensed to Microsoft
• If you want to do something, don’t think too hard about where it’s taking you. Just do it.
• Specific tips on applying design thinking to career and personal development
• The importance of enduring, engaging, and embracing ambiguity 
• Bill Gates’ quote: “People overestimate what they can do in 1 year, but underestimate what they can do in 10 years”

You can find David Johnson on . . .

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/djohnsonllc/

Blog: https://climate-activist.com/

~

Connect with Megan!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

The 8-week Lawyer’s Escape Plan group program begins next week, so if you’re interested in joining us, sign up before doors close on Friday, June 18 at midnight EDT!

8-Week Group Program: https://pages.megansmiley.com/lawyersescapeplan

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/  

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

I'll be walking you through the 5-Step Lawyer's Escape framework that you can follow to go from stuck and uninspired to confident and planning your move.

Sign up for the free webinar here: https://pages.megansmiley.com/webinar-signup-page

In this episode, we discuss:

• Risa went to law school 12 years out of college because she was bored
• She decided she was interested in entertainment law from the IP angle
• She was counting down the days in her summer associateship, which was the first sign that she didn’t love the work
• She hated being beholden to other peoples’ timelines and unnecessary fire drills
• She ultimately took a job in an environmental compliance role in the UC-system
• When she moved to DC for her husband’s job, she had a hard time finding a legal job
• Not loving law anyway, she stopped to ask herself what she actually wanted to do
• She reached out to some local wedding planners and offered to work as an intern
• She started working as a paralegal part-time to help support her as she built her business
• Risa has started a product brand photography business as an exit strategy, because weddings can be grueling after a while

Challenge Sign-Up: http://bit.ly/4stepscloserchallenge

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/  

Lawyer’s Escape Type Quiz: https://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

In this episode, we discuss:

• Eimear originally decided not to practice law after school
• She was a freelance writer for a few years
• How particular the structure of the US legal education system is in keeping us trapped
• Eimear ended up circling back to law, working in immigration and human rights 
• She had to go back to private practice after her organization’s funding was lost, and she realized just how draining it was
• At the same time, the immigration work had taken an emotional toll, and Eimear felt it was time to move on  
• She found herself interested in legal tech because of its environment of innovation and flexibility
• Breaking into a new field may not be easy, but it’s about reframing your experience
• Eimear emphasizes importance of finding the kind of work that truly motivates you 

Get on the VIP List for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/  

You can do hard things. It's just about getting started, strategizing, and taking one step after the other.

Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Jen had a vague intention to get into entertainment law, and ended up in general litigation
• Went to a smaller firm, which allowed her more time to explore other interests
• Jen somewhat randomly reached out to help market a small fragrance business she liked
• Jen realized she enjoyed work with a tangible result, that had an immediate positive impact on a business
• She started exploring the various routes within PR, starting by working with a solo firm and then going out on her own
• She did battle with this idea that she left law because she couldn’t hack it, but she realized it was just a complete personality mismatch
• Jen wanted to build a life where she loved her work, made good money, and had time for family

Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/  

Jeneration PR: https://www.jenerationpr.com/

Agency Accelerator: https://www.jenerationacademy.com/agency-accelerator

First, they start by asking what job they think they can get, rather than asking what they want.

Second, they don't prioritize themselves and the process of figuring out the next best career step. 

Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Robert went to law school to practice criminal law, which he then actually did
• But, after realizing it wasn’t the right fit, Robert transitioned to civil litigation
• He enjoyed trial, but the rest of the package was unappealing 
• The stress of the environment started really weighing on him
• Robert then moved into estate planning. It was less stressful, but also more boring
• Listening to a podcast made it click that he could actually do anything he wanted 
• Robert realized he needed to leave law, but wasn’t sure what the next thing would be
• Played around with a few different business ideas, and started his own podcast
• Robert then started helping other lawyers launch podcasts
• He battled with the thought “who am I to do this random thing?” and found it hard to tell his network he was taking such a different path
• Robert went to a podcast conference, where he was surrounded by people making a living in this field 
• It can be transformative to be around people who believe in the possibilities rather than only seeing the pitfalls 
• When you enjoy what you do, you don’t mind working hard

Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/ 

Lawpods: https://lawpods.com/

Turns out it's not magic. There are some habits these people have that put them in the path of luck more frequently:

• Putting themselves out there
• Listening to their gut
• Having a positive attitude and believing that good things are coming
• Resilience

Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/ 

In this episode we discuss:

• Loan repayment options
• The opportunity cost of your money 
• The importance of looking at real numbers; you might actually end up better by going the loan forgiveness route
• Setting a budget can be uncomfortable, but it allows you to execute a plan (something you probably want and are naturally good at)
• The risks and potential upsides of legislative changes

Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/  

Student Loan Planner: https://www.studentloanplanner.com/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Lisa felt that the conflicts of interest inherent in the billable hour system was misaligned with her values and integrity 
• Lisa followed her interest in environmental issues into carbon credit work 
• Lisa found work that was intellectually challenging, but wasn’t technically practicing law
• Eventually, her position evolved into a general counsel role
• Lisa raised her hand when the Chief Operating Officer role opened up and transitioned to that 
• The importance of resourcefulness  
• Failure is part of the path to your goal
• Lisa has come to realize that what she enjoys is operating a company

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/   

In this episode, we discuss: 

• Francesca went to law school because of interest in social justice
• Coming out of law school, she worked for solo practitioner which she didn’t love
• Francesca started looking for other jobs, and didn’t limit it to legal positions
• She was comfortable with change, but was worried about other people’s opinions about leaving practice - particularly lawyers
• She ended up in a business development and marketing role for legal services 
• Francesca then moved to tech recruiting and Ediscovery software marketing
• She was on a journey to find the right match, and wasn’t averse to trying different things
• Francesca moved to Taiwan when husband was relocated and had to rethink her career yet again
• She started travel writing and worked as a tour scout
• Francesca has now also begun a life coach business for lawyers

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/    

Francesca’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/attorney_on_a_journey/

In this episode, we discuss:

• A lot of family and social pressure around leaving medicine  
• Leaving her home and her profession meant letting go of a portion of who she was
• Her passion was coaching people informally when she was still practicing  
• At 30, Dr. Aisha was working part-time minimum wage jobs in Canada to take the time to figure out her new path
• Total clarity didn’t come all at once; it came bit by bit
• The world is very loud, so it’s hard to know what you really want
• We’re running on autopilot most of the time
• The problem of feeling misaligned in life is solved by looking inwards, not outwards
• One way to start reconnecting with yourself is to disrupt your energy at the start of the day before you’re even fully awake (trampoline, hula hoop, dancing, anything that is a pattern interrupt)
• It may take a while to go through this process, but time is going to pass anyway - may as well be making progress
• It’s ok to change at any age; we are in constant evolution 
• “You can only connect the dots looking backwards” - Steve Jobs

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/   

Dr. Aisha’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/changespecialist-co/ 

In this episode, we discuss:

• Rho enjoys practicing trademark law, but it isn’t her sole priority 
• Rho moved to a reduced hour schedule when she became a mom
• She wanted to work even fewer hours, but had to balance the finances first
• The school debt between her and her doctor husband was significant
• The vision of the life they want has kept them motivated to pay it down
• She found examples of people doing this, which proved to her that it’s possible
• Rho started a blog about their debt journey, which has evolved into her starting her own financial coaching business
• The side business organically grew out of her natural interests 
• Rho has been successful at setting boundaries at work so she doesn’t burn out
• The pandemic has shown her she can slow down, have her business, be a mom, and still practice

Rho’s Website: https://www.rhothomas.com/coaching/

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Human Design Chart: https://www.jovianarchive.com/get_your_chart

In this episode, we discuss:

• Working hard along the path isn’t the same as working hard at figuring out a path
• Kat enjoyed the clarity of mission working in-house and the ability to be more herself, have room to innovate and be creative 
• In-house practice at a Silicon Valley company is still an intense place to work
• Kat was really burned out physically and emotionally
• She realized that she had to take self-care more seriously and set real boundaries at work
• You can start being the person you want to be before you leave your job
• The more she took care of herself, the more it made her question “what are we all doing?”
• As she shifted, she was more out of sync with her colleagues
• For Kat, she came to decide that she didn’t need to have the answers before leaving her job
• She left with no plan for a year - other than that she’d planned out the money piece with her financial advisor
• She sold her home, sold most of her things, and traveled for a year
• The first year was not about figuring it out - it was about allowing herself to reset and live differently
• She then spent another year traveling the US in an airstream, but more focused on thinking about next steps
• She’s now in the early stages of building her own wellness & nature retreat

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/    

Kat’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wildkatwandering/

But here's the thing: you can't wait for total confidence and clarity to take action because it's the action taking that grows your confidence and clarity.

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Vanessa went straight through from undergrad to law school into a litigation practice
• As the child of immigrants, the idea of being a professional working in a big fancy building seemed like the ultimate achievement 
• Vanessa realized she really wanted more interaction with people, and more emphasis on relationship-building in her work
• She also started to realize she wanted to build something, she just wasn’t sure what yet
• Vanessa moved to NY for a year for her husband’s job and decided to explore other interests rather than practice
• Ultimately, Vanessa went into higher education, working in student services at a law school
• As part of her job, Vanessa got the Gallup CliftonStrengths certification 
• She ended up consulting on strengths on the side and realized this was the business she wanted to build
• In leaving her job to do her new business full-time, Vanessa realized how true it is that courage isn’t absence of fear, it’s taking the leap despite your fear
• It may look from the outside like a move was sudden and easy, but it’s just because you don’t see all of the the thought and processing going on behind the scenes
• Strengths coaching walks you through 3 stages: awareness, appreciation, application
• You often can’t see your strengths because they are so inherent to who you are
• It’s a much higher return to invest in your strengths than try to improve on your weaknesses

Vanessa’s Website: www.BloomRiseCo.com

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/ 

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/    

In this episode, we discuss:

• Vicki’s parents had pushed her towards law as a stable and lucrative career

• Vicki’s practice ranged from a clerkship, to BigLaw litigation, to small firm litigation

• Vicki saw the partners at the small firm be so passionate about the work and having fun

• That’s when she realized law practice was probably just not her thing

• Somewhat serendipitously, Vicki came across a job in law school career services 

• Although it was a bit of an impulsive move and Vicki thought she might return to practice in some form, she’s now 25 years into higher education

• She enjoys the scholarly environment

• At some point, Vicki felt she was outgrowing career services, but was able to pivot to a more strategic area of the law school in online program development

• Vicki realized she liked the business strategy and operations, which is what she’d liked from the small firm

• Higher education can be very slow to evolve and bureaucratic 

• Vicki followed her passion for dogs and started training them and volunteering at the humane society

• Her natural talent for dog training came through, and she now has a small side business

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/   

In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Many of Elena’s clients want to do work that’s more meaningful to them
• Try saying “I do lawyering” versus “I am a lawyer” 
• We are all creative, we just have to access it
• The power of the StrengthsFinder test
• The concept of zone of genius 
• We often don’t recognize our own strengths because they are so natural to us

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/    

Elena’s website: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Jay had a relatively positive experience as a big law associate, but found he had the entrepreneurial bug
• Jay jumped into a marketing business with his wife, a graphic designer
• The company provided him with an outlet for more writing, which he enjoyed
• The benefits of taking a chance before the golden handcuffs and family obligations take full hold
• During the Great Recession, as a hedge, Jay started doing some bankruptcy work again, which snowballed into a small law firm
• 3 years into that, he burned out on doing both law and marketing
• The way Jay decided which route to take was by deciding what he wanted his life to look like 
• Jay and his wife decided their priority was moving to a small town where they could get outdoors often. So, that led him to lean into the marketing business, but do it remotely
• Jay now has portfolio career of marketing, consulting, trainings, and writing
• Find the time to prioritize yourself, or you’ll stay stuck

Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/ 

Jay’s Website: https://www.hcommunications.biz/

Lawyers’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq

In this episode we discuss:

• Art was always a part of Geoffrey’s life
• Geoffrey knew that big law wasn’t for him
• Geoffrey tried to combine his practice with his interest in art for many years
• Eventually Geoffrey went all in on his art career
• It was a gradual process to identify fully as a painter, not a lawyer

Lawyers’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq 

Geoffrey’s Website: https://www.geoffreystein.com/

Lawyers’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq

• Alli was pretty clear from the beginning that she wasn’t happy in firm life
• In the process of planning a wedding, Alli fell in love with photography
• Alli initially gained experience by offering to work for photographers for free  
• She was able to build her business before quitting
• As life evolved, she didn’t want to work on the weekends and started considering another pivot
• She was able to jump back into practice helping other creative business owners 
• Alli considers herself a lawyer-entrepreneur 
• Working for herself makes all the difference
• The traditional law industry is so antiquated, it’s become a bad fit for more people  

Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq 

Alli’s Website: https://www.influencerlegal.co/

I also give a few tips on how you can leverage this information to get some of these same benefits, even when you work in a boring gray box.

In this episode, we discuss: 

• Stacey reflects on how her experience in the early years of practice were colored by being very young
• You can be dissatisfied in law even if you don’t have horror stories
• She felt like her creativity was stifled
• Her identity as a lawyer and the weight of her loans held her back for a little while
• Stacey ultimately reframed things and realized she was more concerned about losing time than the financial challenges
• Stacey used the Designing Your Life book exercises for self-observation and discovery
• She found a start-up company she liked and then applied to an open job she thought she could fit into
• The key is knowing you can learn quickly. If so, you’ll be fine in any new position
• Don’t just jump into the next thing without the reflection on who you are and what you’re really looking for

Illegal Design: Leaving Law made Fun Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/leavinglawmadefun 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq 

Leaving Law Made Fun Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/leavinglawmadefun

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq

We have a great conversation about creativity, limiting beliefs, and prioritizing taking the time for exploration. For anyone who has thought about chucking it all to become a writer, I think you’ll love this interview.

In this episode we discuss:

• Amy started in a smaller law firm, then moved to big law for a decade thinking that’s what you do if you have the chance
• Having kids was a respite from a grueling practice
• Amy was offered a 1 year sabbatical offer during the great recession 
• Amy used the year to gain clarity on her next step
• Amy did freelance writing for a start-up publisher
• Law is basically designed to stamp out your creative and innovative sides
• Amy reconnected with her interest in writing
• A legal background helps you in so many business ventures
• Craft exit plan by spending a year of intentional exploration
• You have time - you just have to draw boundaries and take it

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyinteriors/ 

Amy’s Website: https://www.amyimpellizzeri.com/

• Calms the mind
• Sparks creativity
• Connects you to what you enjoy doing

I also talk about the 4 main types of play:

• Physical
• Ritual
• Imaginative
• Discovery

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyinteriors/ 

• Vanessa ended up doing freelance legal work
• Freelance work opened up time and space to start a travel business 
• Vanessa incorporated her interests by including a global health philanthropic element in her travel business
• You don’t have to be all or nothing in your approach to exploring your interests
• Vanessa has balanced exploring different career options with the reality that she’s her own sole breadwinner  
• It’s ok if something ends up not working - it’s all still a worthwhile experiment 
• Let go or be dragged

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyinteriors/

In today’s episode we discuss:

• Being good as a litigator was going to run against Kim’s natural grain
• Being a lawyer is like becoming a professional pessimist...possibly negative
• Competition isn’t a natural strength for everyone
• Kim initially landed in legal publishing 
• The next career pivot was the scary part for Kim
• Kim’s interest in mindfulness, yoga, and fitness guided her next steps
• Kim realized people make money outside the legal/corporate world
• Kim’s curiosity and confidence combined into courage
• We have the skill of advocacy, we need to start advocating for ourselves
• Kim has created a portfolio career of mindfulness, leadership, and life coaching
• Kim specifically teaches continuing legal education on wellness and mindfulness

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign 

Kim’s upcoming CLE: https://www.lawline.com/course/the-role-of-attorney-wellbeing-in-your-legal-practice

Kim’s Website: https://kimnicol.com/

• Quality Chair
• Lighting
• Declutter & Organize
• Plants & Nature
• Personalize

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

In today’s episode we discuss:

• Sarah and I geek out on our shared brain
• So many of us are under-educated on the realities of being a lawyer
• In applying to smaller firms, Sarah realized she didn’t want those jobs either
• Sarah’s anxiety disorder made her a great lawyer, in many ways, but also made the law a particularly bad fit 
• Sarah left big law and took a job making 1/6th what she made
• Eventually, Sarah went on to become an appellate court staff attorney
• This was the best legal job she could have had, so it made it extra clear she didn’t want to practice at all
• Sarah and her husband had a long-term plan for her to leave the law completely, after paying off their loans
• Sarah explored her interests in the name of figuring out who she was, if not specifically for figuring out her next career
• Side hustles work for some people, not everyone
• Sarah left her job to start the podcast and business that had been in her head for years
• Sarah also runs the Former Lawyer Collaborative, a confidential community supporting lawyers moving into new careers

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

Former Lawyer Website: https://www.formerlawyer.com/

Join the Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

• Annette worked for Department of Labor for 20 years
• The stable lifestyle of the job was worth the trade-offs for her 
• After 20 years, when she started thinking about a shift, she didn’t know what her options would be
• In a moment of serendipity, Annette heard about legal marketing writing 
• Annette built a side business, which for her was a reasonable balance between risk and stability 
• She baby stepped to a new career
• Going down this road lead Annette to learn all sorts of new skills in digital marketing 
• There’s still a long time left in your career. Even if you’re 20 years in!

Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

Megan Smiley Interiors: https://www.megansmileyinteriors.com

Law Quill: https://lawquill.com

In the episode I talk about:

• Getting stuck in my second career
• Having no idea how to start to take the next step
• Getting help thinking through my confusion
• Considering ayahuasca on the advice of a career coach
• Doing all of the things trying to find a clue to my next career step 
• Identifying my core values
• Starting and then pivoting a new interior design business
• My Illegal Design Facebook Group (free)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign

https://www.megansmileyinteriors.com

In this episode we discuss:

• Being focused on checking all the boxes
• Gaining clarity that your goals and priorities may have shifted
• Letting go of your identity as a lawyer
• Embracing your new identity
• Finding a more aligned career felt like a weight lifted
• It’s an evolution finding what feels right
• Building your business around your life, not the other way around

Shunta Grant’s Website: https://shuntagrant.com/ 

Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/

Podcast Website: https://www.thelawyersescapepod.com/

In this episode we discuss:

• The limited view of career options many of us have
• Jess’s career in international criminal law
• At the end of the day, practicing law is still practicing law - even in an interesting context
• Looking down the career path, Jess realized she wasn’t excited to practice forever
• Watching Jon Stewart inspired Jess to combine her interests in politics and comedy
• She took a huge risk and went all in on comedy

Jess Salomon’s Website: https://jesssalomon.com/

Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/

Podcast Website: https://www.thelawyersescapepod.com/

In today’s episode we discuss:

• How a big firm career seemed like the only responsible option right out of law school as a single mother of twins 
• It’s great if a firm supports parents with free, onsite childcare, but there are still always challenges of balancing work and family time
• When faced with the possibility of partnership, Jessica was forced to admit to herself that she didn’t want to continue down that road
• Working for the SEC was a big improvement in terms of work/life balance, but also made it clear that practicing law was not Jessica’s forever dream
• It’s hard to decide what to do when you’ve spent your whole life chasing one career path
• In thinking through possible alternative careers, intuition told her that financial counseling (a “fun” hobby for her) felt right and aligned
• It was hard to walk away from practice - both for prestige and financial security
• Jessica did this on her own timeline, one that made sense to her
• Entrepreneurship works different muscles, but you can learn new skills
• Jessica now helps big law associates who are both “underwhelmed and overwhelmed” by their situation
• Having a financial plan in order allows you to think more broadly about new career path options
• Talk to people outside of your immediate work environment; include non-lawyers in your friend group
• Competitive karaoke singers remind you that life doesn’t all have to be so serious

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Guest Website: https://www.jessicamedinallc.com/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Charlotte was on the traditional path in employment law, finding success
• When faced with the opportunity to be made partner, she stopped for the first time to ask “is this what I actually want?”
• Charlotte was a food blogger on the side, which exposed her to a different, creative universe  
• A move to California from the UK gave Charlotte an opportunity to reconsider her path
• Pulling together her various interests, she landed as a partner at a creative agency 
• Finding that position was serendipitous: but that only happens when you’ve laid some groundwork
• The transition was not all smooth sailing; clarity does not always come in a straight line
• Charlotte did deep dive on her purpose; worked with a career coach
• It is important to identify and push through limiting beliefs
• Life is too short to be unhappy or to play small
• Charlotte highly valued autonomy - and realized she had to design a life with that in mind
• She started her own coaching business - Life Design For Lawyers
• Remember the mantra: Everything is possible

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Guest Websites:

• https://www.charlotte-smith.com/
• https://limitless-lawyer.com/

• Sometimes your best laid plans for your career don’t pan out
• Pay attention to the things you enjoy about your job for clues
• Some people make moves in big jumps, and others in smaller steps
• Even sun and surfing in California doesn’t always make practicing tolerable :)
• Entrepreneurship often requires even more hours than law, but if you enjoy what you’re doing - it’s much less painful

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Jan shows us how to take a scientific, systematic approach to leaving law and finding a new career. This process is an experiment: outline your ideas, try them out, learn from the feedback. Don’t expect to have all the answers all at once. But, if you stick with it - you’ll eventually find a good career fit.

Jan has very generously offered 3 free 45-minute sessions to listeners who reference this podcast. So, I’d highly encourage you to jump on that!

In this episode, we discuss:

• Jan knew from Day 1 that law school wasn’t the right fit
• “You really don’t have time to think about why you’re there, you’re just trying to survive”
• The law firm bubble leads you to feel like this just what working life is
• Don’t listen to nay-sayers who haven’t realized there are alternative paths yet
• Networking and mentorship can make all the difference
• Test out different options/interests and learn from the feedback
• Jan actively tried out psychology, wedding photography, and dive instructing to learn what would be the best long-term fit
• It’s ok if the first experiment doesn’t solve all the problems
• Some issues can be solved by a better practice area or geographic fit
• You can make money doing something you enjoy
• Thinking through the costs and benefits of an additional degree
• Don’t let the stress and dissatisfaction grow; it can become a more wide-spread problem
• You have to get your mindset, thoughts, and emotions under control before having the space to dive into larger questions

Jan Newman Coaching: jannewmancoaching.com

Jan Newman Resources: https://drjannewman.com/resources

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

In this episode, we discus:

• Heather wasn’t miserable, she just realized there was a better fit in another roll
• It can take some time and reflection to realize you have unique strengths; something you may think everyone is good out might actually be your particular zone of genius
• Overthinking a change may keep you stuck
• Law practice can be seen as a building block rather than something you abandoned 
• Lawyers make it so hard on ourselves 
• We are black and white thinkers, which puts undue pressure on us to find the “right” answers 
• Mindfulness and thought work help people reframe their thinking
• You need to give yourself time and space to gain perspective
• You’ll take your baggage with you, so do the work upfront 
• Heather offers a variety of services and also hosts a podcast: Hustle & Flow

Heather Hubbard: https://www.heatherjoyhubbard.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

• Being a litigation associate is nothing like what it looks like on TV
• Look at the associates and partners ahead of you and think whether their job/life is something that appeals to you
• Trying different practice environments can help you identify whether your dissatisfaction is with the type of practice, or with being a lawyer all together
• Alex even started his own firm, which highlighted to him that he loved the sales and marketing work more than the law practice
• Identify the core of what you enjoy; for Alex it was working with people
• Look back at what has come naturally to you in the past; you have a unique set of skills
• Really devote some time and effort to introspection to identify your skills and challenges 
• You might find your answer faster by slowing down
• Finding success in a legal career doesn’t mean it’s the best fit for your skills or your happiness
• Lots of real conversations are happening on LinkedIn
• Don’t get overly focused by moving up the ladder in any field; it may not lead you to a position that plays to your strengths
• Keep an open mind
• Follow your own internal guide, not a set of job listings

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

• Sometimes the life you carefully built no longer makes sense to you
• It’s ok to make a change, even if you feel like you're too old to
• Get your eat, pray, love on
• Explore your artistic side, you might find you have one
• You can leverage your legal skills through contract work to fund a break, exploration stint, etc.
• Longer term, there are staff attorney roles at law firms that allow you to balance being a lawyer, making money, and exploring an interest/passion
• You can balance careers, but it requires holding your boundaries clearly
• You can gradually let go your attachment to the lawyer identity 
• Covid-19 may present opportunities to advocate for a new balance for yourself

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Former Lawyer: https://www.formerlawyer.com/collab/

We discuss:

• Try to identify your “through-line”, the thing that seems to pull you to your next step
• If you make a step, and realize it’s still not a fit, just keep moving; it’s not a sign of failure
• The pillars of diversity and inclusion (D&I) are recruiting, retention, and promotion
• “Best practices” is a tricky term because is can sometimes just mean “minimum baseline requirement”
• D&I can’t be treated as a separate office; to be effective, its principles have to be at the core of every decision made
• This moment in history could be an opportunity to push firms to incorporate these policies/practices more pervasively
• Law firms fall on a spectrum of how deep this work goes; how committed they are to changing not only statistics, but their internal culture
• The practice of only hiring from the top law schools has the effect of eliminating a pipeline of strong candidates (many of whom are minorities) who have selected other law schools for financial, family, or other reasons 
• Firms are risk averse and not inclined towards early adoption; but someone has to start changing this limited hiring system
• Addressing affinity bias in work allocation, promotion, mentoring is key
• We each have to do real self reflection on our own implicit bias: who we interact with, what our hard-wired reactions are to people, etc.
• Get uncomfortable
• The challenge is to keep engaged with this work even though we don’t “have to”
• We, as lawyers, need to put our money where I mouth is with our commitment to justice

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

We discuss:

• Big firms are generally cutting salaries over laying off lawyers 
• Will some of these structural changes, like remote work and flexible hours, become permanent or more prevalent?
• Will law firms lean on people working from home to be available 24/7?
• It’s ok to feel disoriented, off-balance, and anxious
• How people are proceeding with exit planning in a world of uncertainty
• Be kind to yourself - don’t judge yourself more harshly than you would someone else
• Some people need a break from making big moves, others might find they have the time and space to give it more attention
• Don’t let this totally derail you from your hopes and dreams
• Take the time to speak to people and network
• We’ve spent our lives trying to keep “stable” jobs, just to find out that nothing is truly risk-free

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

In this episode, we discuss:

• It is possible to enjoy the people you work with, but still hate practicing
• Inertia keeps you in place, and life circumstances can make you feel particularly stuck
• Timing is everything - be open to windows of opportunity
• Pursuing your interests as hobby can remove the pressure of perfection
• Your interests can lead to a new full-time career in the long run (or just a few years)
• You aren’t likely to be great at a new thing right away - that’s ok
• Be bold and make connections
• It’s hard to throw yourself into work that you ultimately don’t care about
• Someone else suggesting you take a leap can somehow make it feel more realistic 
• Fear holds you back
• Be realistic about how long it takes to build a full-time business, even when you’ve been doing a side hustle. Don’t be discouraged too early 
• Everything becomes easier when you get clarity on what you want to do 
• Prestige is a matter of interpretation/perspective 

Chris Gillett Studios: https://liketherazor.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

• Some people actually enjoy practicing
• Life can intervene to change your path
• Living somewhere more affordable opens up a lot of options for alternatives that pay less
• Leaving practice to become a stay-at-home dad
• Coordinating careers, family, and location
• Nothing is permanent. If you change things up and it doesn’t work, just change things again
• Letting go of the idea of being a lawyer opens up options
• Law school and practicing build so many transferable skills
• Think of your law degree as a selling point to open up opportunities, not as handcuffs
• Jumping back into the job market after 12 years at home with kids has its challenges
• Always leverage your network
• Think creatively about pitching yourself to new jobs in new industries

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Balancing cultural and family expectations around careers
• Building a side business while still practicing
• Identifying your biggest life pain point could spark inspiration for a new path
• Angela’s recovery from an eating disorder made it clear to her that health and wellness were core values to her
• Becoming a personal trainer while in law school
• Being a lawyer by day, personal trainer by night 
• It is possible to find a legal job that allows you the time and flexibility to have a side hustle 
• No one is going to hand you flexibility or an unconventional working arrangement. You have to ask. Advocate for yourself.
• Think proactively and purposefully about building a life (both career and personal) that you want
• Angela’s two jobs are complementary: being a lawyer helps her serve her clients
• It is possible to make space for health and fitness, even with a crazy schedule

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Fit to Practice podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fit-to-practice-with-angela-han/id1463128400

Designing Your Life - https://designingyour.life/the-book/

Topics we discuss:

• Student loan debt does not be an albatross
• Federal loans do not always have to be paid back
• The answer is not always to trap yourself at a big firm until 100% of your loans are paid off
• Consider income-based repayment options with loan forgiveness at the end of the term, even outside public interest work
• Tax deductions, simple interest, and a simple savings plan can help you account for a balloon payment at the end of your loan term, even at a lower income level
• You can set it up so your debt is a percentage of your taxable income (whatever that is) - not a flat number, which means you aren’t as stuck as you may feel
• There are some situations in which your loan forgiveness wouldn’t be taxable at all
• A slight difference in your savings rate can translate to retiring 10-15 years earlier
• You have more control over your living expenses than you may feel
• Public service loan forgiveness programs are available, do not be discouraged. If you have pre-2010 loans, you may just need to consolidate to have the right kind of loan
• Public service forgiveness has a shorter timeline and isn’t taxable
• Refinancing makes sense in some circumstances, but be sure to shop around

Student Loan Planner for Lawyers - https://www.studentloanplanner.com/category/lawyer/

Refinancing Loans -https://www.studentloanplanner.com/how-to-refinance-law-school-loans/

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Switching practice areas can almost feel as daunting as switching careers
• The process of thinking about how to leave practice took 1.5 years 
• Ultimately, life is too short to do something that makes you unhappy
• Clara considered recruiting, but didn’t get traction. But, she kept exploring.
• Look to the hobbies and interests that you love 
• There may be career options you dismissed as before because they didn’t seem like realistic, responsible options
• Clara figured out the basics of the industry, and what kind of financial adjustments need to be made - but didn’t wait until she knew 100% before jumping in
• You can’t know you’ll be successful in a new field until you try it
• Think of going back to practice as a safety net, if it helps you to make a jump. 
• We do all have different financial realities to account for. Don’t let it derail you, it may just push your timeline
• Project management and attention to detail are hugely useful transferable skills
• Owning your own business is a particular challenge, but comes with the payoff of more flexibility and independence 
• You may have to let go of the pride of being a fancy lawyer
• Thinking of practicing law as a useful chapter, rather than a huge life mistake 

Banner Day SF: http://www.bannerdaysf.com/

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

In this episode, we discuss:

• Taking care of your physical and mental health
• The difference between working for lawyers and working with lawyers
• There are easily accessible, low-investment programs that could be a starting point for you
• If you prioritize the deeper self-reflection, clarity can come quickly
• Turning an epiphany into action is challenging; it’s tempting to fall back into the status quo
• Lawyer-brain is a thing; it will make you focus on all the possible negative outcomes rather than positive possibilities
• The fear of making a mistake can be paralyzing; you have to work through that
• You can change your thought patterns to break away from the limiting stories you tell yourself 
• Identifying your core values
• Identifying the place you want your career to fill in your life
• What would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail?
• The process may be non-linear. And that’s ok
• Resilience is a skill, you can build it

JD Nation: www.thejdnation.com

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Top 6 Lessons:

(1) You are smart. You can learn how to do something new, and to succeed.

(2) Take Action. As lawyers, we are thinkers, planners, researchers. But the only way to really make a change is to act. 

(3) Let go of your death grip on certainty. You don’t have to know exactly what your career will look like from now until retirement before you make a change.

(4) Your legal training isn't a waste, it's your super power. Going to law school and being a lawyer will serve you well no matter where your career path takes you. 

(5) You need to take care of yourself - physically and mentally. 

(6) You are not alone.

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Topics covered:

• The disconnect between what you study and what you practice
• Coming into law school with an idealistic idea of environmental law; but realizing most jobs in the field are on the corporate side
• Adam gave it a shot at many different firms and practice areas to see if there was anything that he enjoyed, but he still wasn’t happy
• Career options you would not have thought of in a vacuum present themselves to you along the way if you’re paying attention
• You don’t have to be completely certain that the next job is perfect; sometimes you just need something good enough to get you moving
• Consider ancillary aspects of a job like flexibility - it could allow you to get your “it” somewhere else
• Adam started his own recruiting company out of the gates, believing he could figure out the job on his own
• Building strong relationships along the way can pay off in critical moments along your journey
• Without having practiced, Adam couldn’t have ended up starting either of the companies he has
• Risk is in the eye of the beholder: Adam felt like staying at a firm was riskier than leaving 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

We discussed:

• Why going straight to law school after undergrad is a bad idea
• The difficulty of navigating a career so young, with so much debt
• An initial interest in politics was derailed by the need to get a higher paying job
• Coming out of JD/MBA program meaning to practice law, but never actually doing so
• Being open to learning new things and following your interests
• How there is time to pursue even a credential-intensive career after law school
• Sometimes a fulfilling career path is found in unexpected places 
• Leaving practice isn’t failing; it’s just moving on to learn something new
• It isn’t self-indulgent to keep reaching for something that brings you fulfillment 
• Take a sabbatical; write a screenplay 
• Embrace your creativity 
• Remember how lucky we are to have choices; you do have freedom

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Topics we discussed:

• Lean on mentors, although ones within your firm may not have sufficient perspective 
• What to do when you realize that partnership is not your goal 
• Experimenting with different practice settings
• Different things make sense in different seasons of your life 
• “Achievement without fulfillment is the greatest failure” - Tony Robbins 
• Seeking alignment between your beliefs and actions; especially in light of trying to teach kids lessons
• We often lean on excuses (reasonable as they may be) to avoid the discomfort of taking risks 
• You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable for a minute
• There may be moments of questioning your decision, but that just comes with the territory 
• Its challenging, scary, fun, and doable to figure out how to do new things
• Even with the risks, he wish he’d made the change earlier

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

In this episode, we discussed:

• Changing firms allows you to narrow down what it is you do and don’t like about practicing and could give you clarity about whether practicing at all is right for you
• Junior associate work is inherently rough, but do you look ahead and want to do what the senior associates or partners are doing?
• There are still real challenges to being a woman in a firm
• Just because you’re doing the job well and getting positive feedback doesn’t mean it’s the right fit. Hint: if you’re bawling regularly at work, it’s probably not a good fit
• “Quitting is brave and empowering”
• There are pull-off-the-BandAid moments when shifting careers, just do it and move on
• Put yourself out there and meet new people; even if you hate the idea of networking
• Don’t be discouraged when looking at dream positions if you don’t have the exact list of qualifications
• Find a place where you can grow and have some control over your career trajectory
• You can restart multiple times
• Coaching is a great resource that can help you clarify what you want and get un-stuck
• Do 3 small things a day to move yourself forward, whether it’s asking someone to coffee, setting up a coaching sessions, or reading a relevant book
• What you’re doing and who you are need to be aligned

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

The topics we touch on:

• Going to law school because it seemed practical, not because he felt uniquely drawn to it
• The mission of your organization matters in your satisfaction level; but so does the underlying daily work and environment
• You might find yourself in a position that opens your eyes to something new; and if you’re intrigued - lean into it
• If you find something you love to do, even when you aren’t being paid, really consider if that could be turned into a full-time job
• Assume you can learn new skills, because you can and you’ll probably love the process
• Many fields are less credential-oriented than law and relatively easy to break into  
• A lot of us are traumatized by navigating the legal job market, but don’t let that scare you off from trying something new
• Having the emotional support of your spouse, in particular, can make all the difference
• People do this - leave the law for new careers. There’s no reason why you can’t be one of them. 

Website: thelawyersescapepod.com

In this episode we discuss:

• That the area of law that attracted you is often not where you end up practicing 
• How, even if you work with nice people, it may not be enough to keep you going if you’re working insane hours
• Looking at the lawyers ahead of you, does their work/life balance seem any better? Is that the path you want to stay on?
• Feeling hesitant to leave practice because of the time and money commitment
• Taking the time to go for a walk, and giving yourself space to actually think about what you might want to do next: Then write it down!
• Getting clear on what it is that you do and don't like about practicing - it can be different for each of us
• That legal publishing can be a way to lean into the academic side of law you might have liked without the client-based work
• Talking to people about your potential career shift is important - it is likely to open doors to new ideas and new contacts 
• How you can pursue two things at the same time. A side hustle is a great route to pursue a passion
• How it makes no sense to be miserable for the next 40 years because in your early 20s you decided to go to law school