Robert traces the growing privacy challenge from early internet tracking to today’s complex ecosystem of smartphones, online services, and AI systems. While many users understand that they’re trading data for convenience, few grasp how widely their information is distributed—or how easily supposedly anonymous data can be re-identified. As AI accelerates the ability to combine and analyze datasets, those risks are growing quickly.

Then the conversation turns to what designers can do about it. Robert outlines practical ways UX professionals can improve privacy outcomes, from collecting less data and avoiding deceptive patterns to improving language transparency and giving users meaningful control over their information. Despite the scale of the problem, Robert argues that designers have more agency and influence than they realize. Thoughtful design decisions can help protect users while also strengthening trust and long-term business success.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

• Why privacy concerns have intensified with smartphones, AI, and online tracking
• How “anonymous” data can often be re-identified through data aggregation
• Why users have conflicting attitudes about personalization and data tracking
• The role UX designers can play in improving privacy protections
• How deceptive design patterns (including cookie banners) manipulate user consent
• Why clearer language and better privacy tools can give users meaningful control over their data

Quick Reference Guide: 0:15 - Meet Robert, Lou’s neighbor 1:51 - How Robert got into the privacy field 5:06 - Perceptions of privacy and the concessions we make 8:01 - Terms of Service - we accept them blindly - and why that can be risky 15:54 - 5 Reasons to use the Rosenverse 18:39 - What designers can do about data privacy 28:08 - Privacy tools and potential tools for users 32:38 - Robert’s gift for listeners

Resources and Links from Today's Episode:

• Design for Privacy: Keeping Personal Information Private by Robert Stribley https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/design-for-privacy/
• Block Party app https://www.blockpartyapp.com/
• 404 Media https://www.404media.co/
• The Capture https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8201186/

Quotes:

• “We have created these patterns that make it very easy to get involved with those experiences, all the while you're surrendering your data.”
• “I don't think most people understand the degree to which that information is spread around and with whom it's spread around.”
• “Whenever you are utilizing people’s data, really think about what you’re doing with it and be able to justify it.”
• “When you understand deceptive patterns as manipulative, you can’t stop seeing them everywhere.” 

Jeff explains that most transformations fail because incentives still reward shipping outputs, not creating real value. Meaningful change tends to emerge only in pockets led by leaders willing to experiment and treat ways of working as something to test and evolve.

They also explore how AI is shifting risk upstream—from engineering to vision, validation, and decisionmaking—making design and research more critical than ever. Along the way, they reflect on consulting as organizational therapy, the need to prove design’s value in the AI era, and why companies that relentlessly embrace new technology are best positioned to endure.

• Why Agile, OKRs, and similar frameworks often fail to create real change
• The critical shift from measuring output to measuring outcomes
• The two traits shared by successful pockets of transformation in large companies
• How to run small, time-boxed experiments to change ways of working at scale
• Why AI makes design, research, and product thinking more valuable
• How to explain and prove the value of “thinking before the prompt” in AI-driven organizations

0:10 - Meet Jeff Gothelf; Lou and Jeff discuss bridging the gap between ritual and cultural change

7:44 - Good ideas without a clear understanding of why

9:42 - What it takes for organizations to successfully communicate and incentivize 

15:21 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

17:37 - Consultants validate insiders; AI shifts risk toward design clarity

24:20 - AI speeds output, but critical thinking, research, and testing prove designers’ value

27:50 - Jeff and Lou speculate on Amazon’s future

30:49 - Jeff’s gift for listeners

Books by Jeff Gothelf https://jeffgothelf.com/books/ 

Ignorance by Milan Kundura https://www.amazon.com/Ignorance-Novel-Milan-Kundera/dp/0060002107 

“The types of conversations that we're having about good design, about good information architecture, about good research, about agility and customer centricity and all of those types of things, for some reason, those continue to be difficult conversations in organizations today.”

“The risk of engineering is no longer a risk, not like it was not five years ago. It's going to get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. Where's the risk? The risk is in definition, vision, clarity, validation. In other words, it's in design, discovery, research, product management.”

“The differentiation, the uniqueness, the creativity, the innovation is going to come from the critical thinking of the designers and the researchers who are actually doing the thinking before the prompt.”

Jen challenges designers to go beyond the narrow scope of their titles or craft. Instead of trying to “convince” other industries of design’s value, she argues that designers must step outside their professional comfort zones, learn new languages—especially finance—and see themselves as co-conspirators in systemic change.

With today’s precarious job market and the erosion of traditional design roles, Jen offers a compelling vision for designers to build collective practices, join interdisciplinary communities, and find purpose in transforming complex systems like health, energy, and finance. Her advice to students and early-career professionals? Focus on a system that needs fixing and start connecting with others who care.

• Why a degree in comparative religion gave Jen an edge in global finance
• How working on Wall Street pushed her toward systems-level design work
• Why design can’t change the world without engaging with business
• The importance of shifting from a role-based professional identity to a personal design practice
• How to build a resilient career by focusing on systems, not job titles
• Why transdisciplinary design programs may offer a model for the future of education

0:15 - Meet Jen van der Meer 

3:17 - Escaping finance for design

7:35 - Why designers should learn finance

11:44 - The challenges of blurred roles and learning the language of your sector and practice

14:33 – Jen’s job advice for students

19:57 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

22:18 - Transdisciplinary design trends 

29:11 - Possibilities within Jen’s Parsons program

32:33 - The realities of higher education today and scaling the transdisciplinary model of education

36:12 - Jen’s gift for listeners

Parsons Studio https://www.newschool.edu/parsons/faculty/jen-van-der-meer/ 

Jen van der Meer’s website https://jenvandermeer.org 

Rosenverse https://rosenverse.rosenfeldmedia.com/ 

“Comparative religion is a fantastic entry point to navigating the world.”

“That’s what I’ve been working on for the last 10 years. How can I see finance as design territory?”

“We’re not here to convert people. We’re here to work together with other people to transform the systems that we’re in.” 

“I think design pedagogy, studio practice, surveys, all of it is the answer to university education.”

The discussion explores how tool vendors are evolving toward integrated platforms, why taxonomy and information architecture are even more essential in an AI-driven world, and how research operations professionals are becoming critical connectors across teams and technologies. Rather than replacing researchers, AI may free them to focus on identifying knowledge gaps and proactively generating insight. Kate ultimately offers an optimistic perspective: the future favors makers and experimenters—professionals willing to play, adapt, and help shape how AI is used responsibly within research practice.

• Why research workflows are shifting from linear processes to interconnected systems
• How AI is enabling “insights lakes” that make organizational knowledge searchable and reusable
• The growing importance of taxonomy, metadata, and information architecture in AI-driven research
• Why research ops roles become more critical—not less—in an AI future
• How research tool ecosystems may evolve into both integrated platforms and specialized stacks
• Why experimentation, play, and maker mindsets are key skills for researchers navigating rapid change

1:19 - Meet Kate Towsey

2:27 - About the UXR Tools Summit

3:56 - Participant recruitment is just one piece of research ops

9:01 - Research tooling shifting toward ecosystems, not single solutions

13:50 - Knowledge management evolves into AI-powered insights infrastructure

19:56 - 5 Reasons to use the Rosenverse

22:20 - AI sparks creative renewal for makers

28:13 - Kate’s gift for listeners

Kate Towsey’s website https://katetowsey.com/

Research That Scales by Kate Towsey https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/research-that-scales/

Cha-Cha Club https://chacha.club/

Research Ops Review https://www.theresearchopsreview.com/

UXR Tools Summit https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/program/#tab=day-3

A Work in Progress by René Redzepi https://www.amazon.com/Work-Progress-Journal-Ren%C3%A9-Redzepi/dp/0714877549

“Even with the power of AI, brilliance is going to be needed.” 

“People who are makers by nature are having a whale of a time. They’re seeing lots of space for opportunity, for building, for reinventing.”  

“It’s less about whether you’re a researcher or designer and more about whether you’re a maker and an experimenter.”

“There needs to be an element of play — making mistakes and building things that don’t work.”

Maria shares what it means to lead research at NN/g and how her experience as a UX researcher in the UK Home Office shaped her perspective on research maturity and real-world practice. They explore how research repositories help organizations surface knowledge, avoid duplicate work, and support collaboration—and why people and culture remain just as important as the tools. Maria also discusses how AI could make repositories more powerful by surfacing connections and insights.

• What the Director of Research role at Nielsen Norman Group involves
• How government UX work shaped Maria’s perspective on research maturity
• Why research repositories help organizations reuse and share knowledge
• Why research librarians and curators remain essential even with AI
• Where AI could improve research repositories in the future
• A book recommendation on qualitative research analysis

0:10 - Meet Maria Rosala and learn about the UXR Tool Summit

3:23 - What it’s like being the research director of Nielsen-Norman

7:58 - Gauging and comparing research quality

10:18 - How the volume of research at Nielsen Norman compares to the Home Office in the UK

15:54 - What’s special about the Rosenverse and the Rosenbot

18:10 - What research repositories do for organizations

22:08 - Why we need both tools and a culture that is curious and collaborative

27:07 - Thoughts on surfacing and utilizing AI in defined, constrained spaces but with a human architect

33:31 - Maria’s gift for listeners

The Coding Manual for Qualitative Researchers by Johnny Saldana https://www.amazon.com/Coding-Manual-Qualitative-Researchers-Third/dp/1473902495 

Advancing Research 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/ 

“Because we're very small, we do have a lot of oversight of the research that we're doing.”

“People would go through and critique the design and say, ‘Why have you designed it like that?’ And you would need to have a good reason.”

“It's about ensuring that research can be consumed by not just the immediate team that are doing it to inform some of the key decisions that they're trying to make, but that it could potentially benefit others who might be thinking about that problem in a slightly different lens.”

“I think people are going to continue to play an important role, regardless of AI implementations in curating and drawing connections.”

They discuss collapsing response rates driven by constant, low-value feedback requests and the growing sense that many surveys are performative rather than useful. Caroline argues for fewer, smaller, more targeted surveys that respect people’s time and actually lead to change. The conversation also tackles AI in research tools, from synthetic users to automated analysis, and why human judgment still matters.

Caroline shares the key questions she plans to ask survey-tool vendors—especially around accessibility and panel management—and why researchers need better integration across tools and methods. She closes with a literacy-focused resource from the British Council tied to her passion for designing for people with low literacy.

• Why survey response rates keep dropping—and how bad “always-on” feedback requests damage the whole method
• How to make surveys feel less performative: smaller, targeted surveys and “question of the week” approaches
• Why the best surveys are often the ones you never see (because they’re sent to the right small sample)
• Caroline’s take on AI in research tools, including the risks of synthetic users and AI-only analysis of open ends
• The top questions Caroline wants survey-tool vendors to answer, especially about accessibility for researchers and respondents; and panel management and integration
• Why tool integration across methods (surveys + repositories + testing + recruitment + experimentation) matters—and what researchers should push vendors on

0:13 – Meet Caroline and learn her role in the Advancing Research Conference

5:13 - Recent trends that have impacted how research should design and run surveys

8:15 - When surveys feel routine and performative

10:18 - Areas of improvement in uptake and responses 

13:58 - How AI is making a difference in designing surveys and analyzing data

18:55 - How vendors view the utilization of AI

23:58 - Why you need the Rosenverse

26:12 - Caroline’s questions for survey tool vendors

31:11 - Integration and triangulation

36:20 - Caroline’s gift for listeners

Forms That Work - by Caroline Jarrett and Jerry Gaffney https://www.amazon.com/Forms-that-Work-Interactive-Technologies/dp/1558607102

Surveys That Work - by Caroline Jarrett https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/surveys-that-work/

Advancing Research and the UXR Tools Summit - March 10-12, 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/

British Council’s LearnEnglish’s restaurant menu page https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/skills/reading/a1-reading/restaurant-menu

“This problem of being over-invited under usefulness of the survey experience is threatening the whole of survey research, and that trend has now started to affect national statistical agencies.”

“A really well-designed survey will go to the smallest sample that is appropriate for the effect that you're trying to achieve.”

“Do smaller surveys more often. Keep it small. Keep it frequent.” 

“If you’re selling to people, you’re going to have to actually engage with people.”

Yet out of the ashes, a new civic design seeds are taking root. Christian and Dana reflect on what it means to build systems that endure, how to design for accountability, and where the next generation of mission-driven designers, researchers, and creators might focus their efforts. There’s urgency here, but also a throughline of resolve and resilience: the belief that better government is possible—and that good people are still fighting for it.

• How design and research teams inside U.S. government agencies were dismantled under political pressure
• The tactics used to erase DEI and disability-facing efforts and language from federal operations
• Why civic tech and design teams need to plan for resilience—even under hostile leadership
• What it looks like to “exfiltrate” ethical infrastructure during a transition of power
• How former public servants are reshaping the civic tech ecosystem post–government
• Why designing for accountability matters as much as designing for access

0:34 - Meet Christian and Dana

1:41 - A year ago, Dana resigns head of customer experience for DHS

3:03 - Christian’s experience with 18F and his firing by TTS

8:09 - Why Dana resigned from her position with the federal government

11:46 - Considering the motives of the current administration

17:31 - Why running public services like a business is a bad idea

26:06 - Advancing Research - March 10-11, 2026

27:07 - Stewart Brand’s pace layer model theory

30:09 - The future of product design in the public sector

39:30 - Dana’s and Christian’s gifts for listeners

University of Global Health Equity in Rwanda https://ughe.org/ 

https://www.linkedin.com/school/ughe/ 

Girl Scouts USA https://www.girlscouts.org/

Order Girl Scout cookies from trans girl scouts https://open.substack.com/pub/erininthemorn/p/2026-trans-girl-scouts-to-order-cookies?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web 

Advancing Research - March 10-11, 2026  https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/ 

“ By firing us all at once, they inadvertently preserved our unity really well.”

“There was a shared belief that we could still have the shared goal of making stuff work better and put politics aside and make some actual advantages.”

“They thought..affirmative action..advantaged everybody except for white males. So nobody’s credentials are legitimate except white males. Everybody else has been boosted, and you have to discount them. It’s a bizarre thing that it’s the opposite of reality in many ways.”

“It was a data heist. They exfiltrated private government data – public data but private information. It was theft of the sovereign data of the United States.”

“I would argue that the government should not be run like a business. It is fundamentally a different thing.”

“Government exists because there are things that humans need that cannot be provided by the private sector.”

Chris also shares how over-reliance on AI tools can lead to "cognitive debt" and de-skilling — both for individuals and entire organizations. Drawing from philosophy, pop culture (yes, even Doctor Strange), and practical design methods, Chris offers a compelling case for why designers are crucial in shaping responsible AI, and how a well-designed assistant can help without dumbing us down. It’s a smart, witty, and insightful conversation that makes a strong case for the enduring relevance of design in an AI-driven world.

• The key distinction between assistant and agent technologies—and why it matters
• How everyday tools like predictive text shift between assistant and agent modes
• Why assistive AI is more widespread (and safer) than fully agentive systems—for now
• How designers can mitigate cognitive dependency and “de-skilling” in users
• The risks of organizational over-reliance on AI, especially without design input
• How pop culture (like Doctor Strange’s cloak) offers helpful metaphors for AI design

0:11 - Meet Chris Noessel

1:44 - Agentive vs assistive (assistant)

8:36 - Real-world examples of technology assistants

11:55 - Agents and assistants in publishing

15:44 - Break: Advancing Research - March 10-11, 2026

17:10 - The risks of dependence and de-skilling 

20:43 - Studies on the effects of ChatGPT on the brain

21:57 - Over-reliance at scale

23:34 - How designers can prepare to navigate the AI maze

26:46 - On writing and publishing on AI

33:13 - Chris’ gift for listeners

Designing Agentive Technology: AI that Works for People by Chris Noessel https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/designing-agentive-technology/

Designing Assistant Technology: AI that Makes Us Smarter by Chris Noessel https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/designing-assistant-technology/

Chris’ sci-fi blog https://scifiinterfaces.com/

Your Brain on ChatGPT https://www.media.mit.edu/projects/your-brain-on-chatgpt/overview/

Cloak of Levitation  https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Cloak_of_Levitation

Doctor Strange  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1211837/?ref_=fn_t_1

“An assistant helps a user do something. An agent does that thing for them.”

“Whenever you have an assistant that helps you do something, there runs a risk of dependence.”

“When we talk about stupidity, we’re really talking about over-reliance and dependence and evn de-skilling.” 

“Dependence and over-reliance is a major risk when any assistant, but AI makes it more significant and troubling.” 

Rather than treating craft as polish or perfection, Uday argues for looking inward—at the emotional, personal, pragmatic, and even spiritual layers that influence a designer’s work. He and Lou discuss how these hidden layers shape our taste, decisions, and impact, especially in an era where AI is transforming the practice of design. Uday makes the case for self-awareness and reflection as a way to strengthen both individual designers and teams, and hints at how his “anti-craft” framework might become a new tool for mapping the human side of design alongside its technical layers.

• Why Uday Gajendar is rethinking “craft” through his concept of anti-craft
• How design is shaped by personal, emotional, and spiritual layers
• Why self-awareness and lived experience matter more in the age of AI
• How teams can support designers beyond the work itself
• A fresh way to evaluate both product and team growth

0:30 - Meet Uday

2:07 - Uday, craft, and anti-craft

6:23 - The personal layers and dimensions that impact both the craft and the crafter 

11:07 - The spiritual aspect of design

16:31 - Break: Why you need the Rosenverse

18:51 - How to connect the layers back to technology

24:53 - Layers in light of the Pace Layers Model

28:00 - Uday’s gift for listeners

Stewart Brand’s pace layering model https://longnow.org/talks/02015-brand-saffo/ 

The Way Forward by Yung Pueblo https://www.amazon.com/Way-Forward-Yung-Pueblo/dp/1524874833

“Design, for me, is a personal path of self-discovery, of meaning, of value, of impact.”

“For a lot of designers, we create something that is a manifestation of what we believe in because we believe in something of such quality, of such craft, of such character.”

Lavrans and Andy join Lou in today’s episode, and they acknowledge that their original work, while groundbreaking, often painted a slightly utopian picture of design practice. This edition brings a more grounded perspective, reflecting the messy realities of organizational politics, cross-functional collaboration, and measuring the value of design. Tools like service blueprints have been sharpened, not just described—making it easier for designers to move from abstract ideas to tangible outcomes.

And for experienced professionals? You’ll find new material that helps you advocate for service design more effectively within complex organizations, alongside updated thinking on ROI, team structures, and evolving roles in product-led environments. It’s not just a book—it’s a toolkit for navigating what’s next.

• How service design is evolving within product-led organizations
• Why public sector services are still the natural setting for “pure” service design
• The shifting relationship between product and service design
• Ways service designers can navigate organizational politics
• How experience design has become more visual and actionable
• What’s changed between the first and second editions—and why it matters

0:12 - Meet Lavrans and Andy

0:48 - The reason for writing a second edition of Service Design

4:41 - What’s new and what remained in the new edition

7:51 - The case studies and new chapters in the new edition

10:16 - Service design’s relationship with organizational change and politics

13:13 - Experience the Rosenverse

14:41 - When service design meets product thinking

21:42 - Service design’s strength in public and product sectors

23:47 - Cutting the fluff: visualizing experience design

25:12 - Why the second edition still matters

28:41 - Andy and Lavrans’ gifts for listeners

Diffusion Innovation by Everett Rogers https://www.goodreads.com/work/editions/129867-diffusion-of-innovations 

The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More by Jefferson Fisher https://www.amazon.com/Next-Conversation-Argue-Less-Talk/dp/0593718720 

We Need to Talk by Joshua Graves https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/we-need-to-talk-a-survival-guide-for-tough-conversations/ 

Service Design: From Insight to Implementation by Lavrans Løvlie, Andy Polaine, and Ben Reason https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/service-design-second-edition/ 

9th Design Ops Summit, September 10-11, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/ 

“Services happen over time.” 

“Services are intangible.” 

“Service design involves people aligning around a common way of thinking about things. So a lot of service design is organization change.”

frog North America's Head of Service Design, Bethany Brown, joins Lou to explore the intersection of service design, operations, and AI. With roots in industrial design and global experience across firms like EPA and Engine, Bethany brings a unique lens to tackling large-scale organizational friction.

She walks us through a real-world case study from her upcoming talk at the Advancing Service Design conference (November 19-20), where her team used service design principles to help a company identify costly operational breakdowns, before applying AI to streamline processes and improve financial outcomes. Instead of leading with technology, Bethany’s approach centers on deeply understanding human workflows, mapping them visually, and uncovering where systems are failing frontline workers.

Through this lens, “operations” becomes less about rigid systems and more about the connective tissue of a service experience. And service design becomes the glue that aligns people, technology, and strategy. It’s a talk—and a conversation—not to miss.

Plus, Bethany shares the best career advice she ever received, and pays tribute to the educator who helped her realize design is an ever-evolving discipline, not a fixed path.

• How service design uncovers human inefficiencies AI can help solve
• Why visualizing messy, manual workflows unlocks operational clarity
• The role of empathy in reimagining frontline service delivery
• How to bridge AI strategy and real business needs through co-creation
• Why Bethany sees operations as the engine behind customer experience
• How an industrial design background shaped her systems thinking approach

0:00 - Meet Bethany and learn her career arc

3:33 - Bethany’s ah-ha moment about service design

6:15 - Shifting from physical design to strategic, zoomed‑out service work

9:53 - “The beauty of service design is that it doesn't live alone. It never works by itself. It's always in partnership.” 

13:13 - Why you should try the Rosenverse

15:27 - Visualizing messy operations to identify where AI helps

19:56 - Bridging operations and AI through service design clarity

28:41 - Bethany’s gift for listeners

Advancing Service Design Conference (virtual) - November 19-20, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

“Let’s not just design the bike. Or let’s not just design the chair. Let’s think about everything around that. And I got excited about evertyhign around it.” 

“ Service design is so much more about the process, and the value of it is  a lot of decision making that happens in the process of service design, like ambiguous decisions that you didn't know even needed to be made.” 

“You get to use a lot of design thinking and design process to drive to highly strategic decisions to be made.”

“ The most important part of service designing anything in an ambiguous space is making it visible and visualizing the complexity.”

Gustavo shares how his early work in franchising sparked a fascination with aligning brand strategy, operations, and customer experience, eventually leading him to service design as a more holistic lens. Shreya’s journey began with product design in hospitals, where she realized the real challenge wasn’t just designing a better object—it was improving the entire system around it.

Together, they reflect on the emerging trends in the field, including the move toward systems-level thinking, new contexts like journalism and B2B, and the rich global collaboration shaping this year’s conference. The conversation is full of thoughtful insight, heartfelt reflection, and a few unexpected gifts—from Ken Wilber to Picasso.

• How two service designers from very different backgrounds each found their way into the field
• Why service design thrives in complex, multi‑stakeholder environments like healthcare, franchising, and journalism
• The emerging shift from focusing on “journeys” to understanding entire service ecosystems
• How global collaboration and peer learning are shaping this year's Advancing Service Design conference
• New ways to think about performance in services—beyond KPIs and toward learning, adaptability, and shared meaning
• The value of evolving one’s craft: moving from precision and “doing it right” to embracing abstraction, ambiguity, and creative confidence

0:12 - Meet Shreya and Gustavo

1:31 - Gustavo’s path into Service Design, which includes retail and franchise

7:30 - Shreya’s path into Service Design, which includes hand sanitizer and medical research

13:09 - Finding the magic of service design in unexpected fields 

17:46 - Check out the Rosenverse

19:11 - Shreya’s perspective on the upcoming conference

23:27 - Gustavo’s perspective on the same conference

25:21 - Hear the smiles

27:28 - Shreya’s and Gustavo’s gifts for listeners

Advancing Service Design 2025 - November 19-20 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

Ken Wilber’s books https://www.amazon.com/stores/Ken-Wilber/author/B0FKHPT8WN?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8053455d-fb3f-46a6-bd1d-a7b16cf04b04  

“The top of spirituality is service. You’re being spiritual when you’re serving.” 

“We build together and co-create, and the cases evolve through time.”

“ As you go, you become more experienced and work with different contexts, environments, and your practice grows and morphs into something else. Your comfortableness with ambiguity and being able to work with uncertainty and with abstract concepts and not knowing everything, I think you become more and more comfortable with that.”

In this episode, Jen and Lou preview her upcoming talk at Advancing Service Design 2025 and unpack why learning—not certainty—should be the North Star of design practice. She shares how service designers can operate more effectively by zooming out to see systems-level patterns and zooming back in to take practical action. From breaking down spatial and temporal complexity to explaining how constraints inhibit organizational learning, Jen reframes service design as an adaptive, constantly evolving practice. Whether you're a seasoned designer or simply service-design curious, this episode will stretch your thinking about what service design is—and what it can become.

• How service designers can apply complexity science and systems thinking to their everyday work
• Why adaptive organizations need learning-focused design approaches, not rigid frameworks
• The difference between spatial and temporal complexity—and how each affects your design choices
• How to recognize and remove the constraints that prevent organizational learning and change
• What Jen learned by transitioning from physics to design, and how that background still shapes her work
• Why service design is evolving beyond traditional boundaries—and what it takes to practice it effectively today

0:19 - Meet Jen and learn how a grocery-store encounter changed the course of her career

6:35 - Jen decided to pursue a Masters in Design at Carnegie Mellon 

12:14 - 5 Reasons you should be using the Rosenverse

14:54 - Jen’s talk at Advancing Service Design, “Learning is the North Star: Service Design for Adaptive Capacity,” inspires us to zoom in and out 

18:17 - Navigating time and space

23:54 - The role of systems thinking

26:44 - Adaptive capacity and learning

33:59 - Jen’s gift for the audience

Advancing Service Design virtual conference - November 19-20, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

Oblique Strategies The book: https://www.amazon.com/Oblique-strategies-hundred-worthwhile-dilemmas/dp/B0000EEZG9 

The physical cards: https://enoshop.co.uk/products/oblique-strategies?variant=51221629501780

An online generator: https://stoney.sb.org/eno/oblique.html

More info from WIkipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies

“Dick Buchanan is my cult of choice when it comes to how I orient myself to thinking about the practice of design.”

“Good teachers are all good designers.” 

“Get in the habit of asking ‘what’s happening?’ a little earlier.” 

“Get good at not needing to predict the future because you can adapt so effectively.”

“Imagine or anticipate what are a few steps further - second, third, fourth order consequences of things.” 

“Expand a little earlier and a little later in your timeline and see what that uncovers. Do the same thing with your spatial maps.”

If you’ve ever wondered how to build design credibility in a skeptical organization, how to scale expert mentorship without burning out your top people, or how AI might actually amplify—not replace—human wisdom, this episode is for you.

• Why centralized design teams matter
• How to evaluate whether a company is truly design-ready
• Why bridging business and design doesn't require an MBA
• The power of organizational literacy in design
• What to expect post-acquisition when integrating agencies into corporations
• How democratization of design tools isn’t a threat—but an opportunity
• What Scott is building with his new company, Tmpt.me
• The subtle importance of provenance and weighting in expert AI agents

0:00 - Meet Scott, a combination designer and business guy

4:26 - The surprising ingredient for effective communication across divisions

7:08 - The markers of an empathetic, effective workplace 

12:07 - The 9th DesignOps Summit 

13:15 - Centralizing design and research teams can reshapes culture and careers

19:01 - How to balance centralization with design democratization

24:18 - The AI project Scott is working on now

31:10 - How Tmpt.me handles citations and source weighting

34:19 - Scott’s gift for listeners

Tmpt.me https://www.tmpt.me/ 

Ideaflow: The Only Business Metric that Matters by Jeremy Utley and Perry Klebahn https://www.jeremyutley.design/ideaflow

“Centralizing...makes all the difference in the world.”

“ Interdisciplinary teams are the winning teams. But if each of those disciplines has their own org, then that org can nurture and produce the strongest players in that discipline.”

“The more a design organization can teach engineering, product, business their design method, the more those other teams will ask for designers to represent that method rather than themselves moonlighting it.”

Catt shares insights from her forthcoming Rosenfeld book, Staff Designer: Grow, Influence, and Lead as an Individual Contributor, where she draws on her own experience at companies like Etsy, Asana, and Dropbox—alongside interviews with nearly 30 other design pros—to clarify a path that’s increasingly relevant in today’s flattened organizations.

Catt explains why staff designers thrive at the intersection of strategy and execution, influence and diplomacy. Staff design isn’t about hierarchy; it’s about navigating complexity, guiding quality, and mentoring others, all without direct reports. Whether you're a senior designer wondering what’s next or a leader trying to support IC career growth, this episode reframes design leadership for the modern era.

• What defines a staff designer and how the role differs from senior design or management
• Why diplomacy, influence, and communication are core to the job
• How the staff designer role supports cross-functional strategy without direct reports
• Ways the role enables mentorship and growth for other ICs
• Why this path is increasingly relevant in today’s flattened design organizations
• How Catt’s book offers actionable tools, illustrations, and exercises for growing in the role

0:10 - Meet Catt and hear why she wrote a book

2:45 - Catt’s path from senior designer to staff designer to author

4:21 - Senior designer vs staff designer

6:46 - Staff designer as diplomat

13:33 - The 9th DesignOps Summit – September 10-11, 2025

14:32 - The tricky dynamic of guiding without managing

19:20 - Rethinking design roles for 2025

24:27 - Catt’s gift for listeners

Staff.design https://staff.design/

The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Klemp https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable-ebook/dp/B00R3MHWUE 

Staff Designer: Grow, Influence, and Lead as an Individual Contributor by Catt Small https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/the-staff-designer/ 

“A staff designer is everything that a senior designer is, but more.” 

“When you’re a staff designer, you are essentially unstucking the entire team.” 

“There’s a lot of growth that senior designers usually experience when they get to work directly with staff designers.”  

“It’s interesting because you’re trying to figure out how to be a peer but also lead people.”

“You are essentially designing how you want to show up.”

In his conversation with Lou, Nathan reflects on over a decade of working with Rosenfeld conference presenters—researchers, design leaders, ops people, and more—as they prepare to step into the spotlight. He shares how effective communication isn’t just about slides or scripts, but about presence, intention, and treating your talk like a gift to the audience. Whether coaching polished speakers or total newcomers, Nathan’s approach is rooted in empathy, trust, and helping people show up as their most authentic selves.

From embracing improv to ditching the word-for-word script, Nathan’s advice speaks to anyone who wants to connect more meaningfully—on stage, in a meeting, or behind the camera. This episode is packed with insight for designers, leaders, and communicators of all stripes.

• Why designers often underestimate how different public speaking is from day-to-day communication
• What makes high-level speakers still want coaching—and what they get out of it
• A technique Nathan uses to help speakers ditch their scripts (without losing their message)
• How to build audience trust, even when presenting remotely
• The secret value of improv training in high-stakes presentations
• What makes a talk “nourishing” instead of just noise
• How to translate complex design ideas into compelling, human-centered storytelling

0:10 - Meet Nathan

2:26 - Nathan’s path from impromptu teacher to the go-to demo guy to communications coach

7:51 - Are some speakers “naturals”?

10:28 - Nathan’s secret: his meeting with an improv facilitator

12:07 - Toastmasters vs improv

15:04 - Why you need the Rosenverse 

17:20 - Guiding design leaders from nervous to natural onstage

24:37 - When your presentation is virtual and you can’t see your audience

28:41 - Slides or no slides? And outlining vs mind mapping

33:23 - The power of storytelling and focusing on the audience 

36:09 - Nathan’s gift for listeners

The Moth https://themoth.org/listen 

 ”The ‘uh’ is really good and a needed tool when you're in a big debate with a group of people around the table. So there is a good use for it. But not when you are holding the microphone and nobody can take the floor away from you.” 

“ If you want to improve your skills, whether it's a formal presentation or just a peer presentation, or like we're doing here – we're just having a conversation – go to improv.”

“A hook is a great way to start, but it’s not the only time you want to get them involved.”

“Think of what you’re doing here as not just a bunch of words and slides, but as a gift to the audience. This is a gift you are giving people so that they can go home and become the heroes in their situation.”

“Just tweaking some of what they say, making it more about the audience, makes their value much higher.”

As systems fracture and new patterns emerge, Ops leaders are stepping into roles that feel more like architects than managers—shaping the blueprint for how design and engineering build together in real time.

One of those leaders is Aletheia DeLivre, Senior Program Manager of Design Engineering Collaboration & Strategy at Microsoft, and a featured speaker at the upcoming DesignOps Summit. In this conversation, she and Lou unpack how AI is disrupting workflows, accelerating timelines, and reshaping power dynamics between disciplines.

• Why traditional workflows are breaking—and what might take their place
• How conversational UI and AI prototyping shift the meaning of "done"
• Why design–dev collaboration could become more co-creative than ever
• How to rethink “quality” in a world where speed often wins
• Why ops professionals are moving from managers to architects and guides
• The emotional burden ops leaders carry as they steer teams into the unknown

0:12 - Introduction of Aletheia and non-linear journey

4:27 - AI forces design ops to reimagine itself

6:50 - AI is rewiring design-dev collaboration

9:23 - AI delivers speed, humans deliver craft

13:51 - The ninth virtual Design Ops Summit - September 10-11

15:35 - Design Ops as system architecture and conduction

19:10 - Design Ops as ethical pathfinders

25:11 - Aletheia’s gift for listeners

The Design Conductors by Rachel Posman and John Calhoun https://www.thedesignconductors.com/ 

The Worlds I See: Curiosity, Exploration, and Discovery at the Dawn of AI by Fei-Fei Li https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-See-Curiosity-Exploration-Discovery-ebook/dp/B0BPQSLVL6 

Design Ops Summit - September 10-11, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/ 

“There’s a quality-time ratio. I think this is where humans still have an edge – the refinement of the craft.” 

“AI is great to get us from idea to prototype, but we still see a lot of gaps.” 

“Once you refine it into production-level code, I think that’s where there’s still something missing in terms of  the level of craft, the adherence to your principles, your design system componentry, and pattern reusage.”

“We are both the conductors and the architects.” 

“ The power and potential of AI is so high that it behooves us as humanity to develop AI in a way that doesn't replace humans but enhances them.” 

Doug shares hard-earned lessons from IBM’s ambitious and trailblazing design transformation from the mid-twenty-teens: how centralization jump-started progress, why decentralization required careful timing, and what metrics ultimately proved design’s business value. Along the way, he offers thoughtful advice for today’s design leaders and ops pros who are navigating evolving roles and growing complexity.

Whether you’re leading a design team or supporting one behind the scenes, Doug’s insights are a must-hear for anyone shaping the future of design operations.

• How IBM went from zero to thousands of designers, and why centralization was the critical first step
• The risks of decentralizing too soon and how IBM managed the shift through a hybrid model
• Why community and culture matter in onboarding, especially for early-career designers
• The metrics that matter most in design ops, including alignment, velocity, risk mitigation, and ROI
• How to assess organizational conditions before choosing metrics and why a one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t work
• Framing questions for design leaders to ask themselves to better align investments in ops with the maturity of their teams

0:15 - Meet Doug Powell

5:23 - Reflections on IBM

7:40 - Lessons from scaling design at IBM

11:50 - Timing design org transitions

19:20 - Lessons from early chaos

22:10 - Design Ops Summit 2025

23:05 - Metrics that matter most

27:57 - Tailoring metrics to context

30:36 - Diagnose before you measure

33:08 - Doug’s gift for listeners

“DesignOps: Start with the Right Questions” by Doug Powell

https://dougpowelldesignleadership.substack.com/p/designops-start-with-the-right-questions 

A Different Kind of Power by Jacinda Ardem https://www.amazon.com/Different-Kind-Power-Memoir/dp/0593728696 

“ In order for this to thrive, the business needs to take ownership of and responsibility for the designers, their headcount, and also their output.”

“ I don't think I fully appreciated how important that bond, that connection, that cultural energy would be until we got into this program by a couple of years.”

“ They're really committed to this company and this culture that we've built at a level that I frankly didn't expect.”

“ There are a dozen or more different diagnostic questions that we should be asking to determine what are the right set of metrics that we should be applying.”

The conversation ranges from the power of cross-functional collaboration to the benefits UX skills bring to game development to the monetization models shaping today’s games. Cheryl reflects on the challenges facing the industry—massive layoffs, misaligned incentives, and a lack of shared understanding—and how a more human-centered, sustainable approach could be a game changer. Whether you're a UX professional, game developer, or just curious about what makes great video games tick, this episode offers a sharp, wide-angle view of where the field is headed.

• Why traditional UX skills transfer powerfully to game development
• The critical role of onboarding, perception, and player motivation in game design
• How communication breakdowns across teams and publishers derail game success
• Why so many modern games fail—not because of content, but because of friction in experience design
• What it means for a video game to be “sustainable” in an era of microtransactions and live service models
• How self-expression and community drive the economics of successful games
• Why studios must embrace authenticity and player feedback—especially in an AI-driven future
• What makes Cheryl’s favorite indie game, Blue Prince, a model of sustainable design

0:14 - Meet Cheryl

4:00 - The intersection of UX and game development

9:12 - Communicating design value to non-designers

13:17 - What sets top game studios apart: vision, community, and embracing ambiguity

17:01 - How UX helps games stand out in crowded genres

21:38 - 5 Reasons you need the Rosenverse

24:01 - What sustainability really means in live-service games

30:54 - Cheryl’s gift for the audience

The Game Development Strategy Guide by Cheryl Platz https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/game-development-strategy-guide/ 

Blue Prince https://www.blueprincegame.com/ 

“This book is about us trying to define the industry we want to see because the industry we have is no longer working.”

“Capitalism isn’t engineered to like hard things.” 

“ Players want that authenticity. They want to know that they're supporting actual creators and not just something that was randomly generated by AI.” 

“I cannot overstate how important self-expression is in live service games.”

Passcode: n5VOS0+Q

Design operations isn’t just about process—it’s about shaping better products, teams, and organizations from the inside out. José Coronado joins Lou to unpack why DesignOps deserves to be treated as a true design discipline. Drawing on his experience leading global teams at JPMorgan Chase, Target, and beyond, José shares strategies for embedding operational roles into business units, measuring impact, and scaling design without sacrificing quality.

They explore how enterprise UX has evolved since the iPhone, why service design is the right lens for thinking about internal operations, and what it takes to foster effective cross-functional collaboration. The conversation offers a preview of José’s upcoming panel at the 2025 DesignOps Summit—and plenty of practical insights for DesignOps professionals at any stage of their journey.

• Why José believes DesignOps is design, not just a support role
• How the consumerization of enterprise software changed the game for UX
• What enterprise UX offers that consumer design doesn’t—and why it matters
• How DesignOps leaders can show impact and justify investment
• The role of service design thinking in shaping scalable internal operations
• Key cross-functional challenges when integrating DesignOps, ResearchOps, ContentOps, and ProductOps
• A practical framework for professional development across design teams
• The two main barriers holding back DesignOps pros—and how to overcome them
• Why aligning ops roles with business units (vs. management buckets) can make all the difference
• Resources and thought leaders to follow for career growth in design

0:10 - Meet Jose 

1:51 - From physical design to digital discovery

3:29 - The complexity (and opportunity) of enterprise UX

7:44 - Why DesignOps IS design

9:16 - Why service design is a good lens for DesignOps

11:57 - The many paths into DesignOps—and who it’s really for

15:37 - Can DesignOps shed its cost center label?

18:04 - The ninth Design Ops Summit – September 10-11, 2025

19:15 - All the Ops: specialization vs. integration

23:49 - Elevating horizontal practices and professional development

28:42 - What holds DesignOps back?

31:18 - Jose’s gift for listeners

Design Ops Summit - September 10-11, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/

Tom Scott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomscottt/

Silke Bochat: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bochat/

Lena Kull: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lena-kul/

“If you can be successful in a complex environment like financial services, a top 10 bank in the world, you can basically take your skills anywhere to any problem.” 

“Design operations is design, full stop.”

“Design operations enables the organization to increase the impact or the efficiency of the processes and the products and services that we put out in the marketplace.”

In this lively episode, Lou Rosenfeld chats with George Aye, co-founder of Greater Good Studio, about his mission to create spaces for “pissed off optimists”—people who see the world’s injustices and refuse to give up on making things better. George shares the philosophy behind Angry Hour, a growing series of meetups uniting professionals from diverse fields around shared frustration and hope. He explains how these gatherings channel collective energy into meaningful connections, local nonprofit support, and even bigger plans like the upcoming Livid Conference—a national gathering for changemakers who are angry enough to care and optimistic enough to act.

If you’re searching for solidarity in uncertain times—or simply wondering how to turn anger into action—this conversation offers insight, inspiration, and a glimpse into a movement fueled by equal parts rage and resolve.

• What it means to be a “pissed off optimist”
• How the Angry Hour meetups create safe, energizing spaces for people feeling both outrage and hope
• The kinds of people and professions drawn to this emerging community—and why it transcends industry lines
• The unique structure of Angry Hour events, including icebreakers and support for local nonprofits
• George’s vision for the upcoming Livid Conference: a national gathering for change-driven optimists
• Practical ways to connect, volunteer, or get involved in this growing movement
• Book recommendation: Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond—and why its message resonates with George’s mission

0:13 - Meet George. He explains why Chicago is the perfect spot for his agency, which only does work for nonprofits

2:46 - The origins of “pissed off optimist”

6:02 - Angry Hours and the universality of pissed off optimists

14:17 - The sustaining factors of the Pissed-Off Optimist movement

18:05 - Five reasons to use the Rosenverse

21:06 - What to expect from an Angry Hours

23:58 - The nonprofit organizations Angry Hours partners with and where George sees things going in the future 

30:15 - How to connect and contribute

31:57 - George’s gift for listeners

Greater Good Studio in Chicago https://greatergoodstudio.com/ Sign up for their newsletter!

Connect with George on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgeaye/

George and Greater Good Studios on Medium https://medium.com/greater-good-studio 

Poverty by America  by Matthew Desmond https://www.amazon.com/Poverty-America-Matthew-Desmond/dp/0593239911 

“ When we say the ‘pissed off optimist,’ we always are trying to see how we can balance the  hope and sense of healing or repair or just general faith in humanity that we can still do something about this.”

“ I think we need to recognize how broken things are and not lose faith.”

“ Yes, things are nuts right now, but we need each other if we're gonna get through it.”

“Being able to make sure that we continue to have places for hope and reality together, to me, is something I believe we can sustain.”

Lou Rosenfeld talks with Francois, a UX designer turned digital decarbonization consultant, about how a personal crisis led him to channel his “infinite energy” into tackling the tech industry’s overlooked climate impact. Francois shares how he co-founded Climate Product Leaders and co-authored Sustainable by Design: A Playbook for Product Managers—a free, practical guide brimming with best practices and real-world case studies for weaving sustainability into everyday product and design work.

They explore how sustainability intersects with design, product management, and hot topics like AI, highlighting how even small steps can create meaningful change. Francois also offers candid reflections on career pivots, mental health, and finding purpose-driven work that feeds both your soul and the planet.

• How Francois pivoted from a successful tech career into climate action after burnout and depression—and why others might find similar purpose in sustainability work
• Why the tech industry’s carbon emissions rival aviation’s—and why digital decarbonization matters
• The purpose behind Sustainable by Design, and how it helps product managers, designers, and technologists embed climate considerations into daily work
• The kinds of best practices and case studies featured in the playbook, including new guidance on sustainable AI practices
• How awareness and interest in climate-conscious design and product practices have grown significantly over the past few years
• Practical advice for navigating personal and professional change, including tapping into your “infinite energy” and finding courage to follow your gut toward meaningful work

0:00 - Meet Francois

1:21 - Francois’ climate change journey

5:19 - On depression and finding your “inner fire”

7:56 - “Infinite energy” – how to find it and where to put it?

9:34 - Climate Product Leaders – What it is and how 

13:05 - Why you need the Rosenverse

15:19 - What you’ll find in the Playbook

18:55 - Developments that happened in the two years between the first and second versions of the book

21:21 - Case studies

23:41 - Francois’ gift for listeners

Sustainable by Design: A Playbook for Product Managers by Francois Burra. Get the free playbook at ClimateProductLeaders.org 

Green IO Podcast https://podcast.greenio.tech/ 

“I decided that my mission now would be to help my industry, the tech industry, become greener because it’s twice more emissions than the aviation industry.”

“First, take care of yourself. And second, try to understand where is your inner fire and what is this infinite energy that resides in you that you can leverage.”

“Don’t be afraid to be courageous and follow your gut.”

Matt shares how he explores "weak signals"—small, often personal experiments or observations that hint at larger shifts to come. From building an early website with GPT-3 to creating an app that tracks the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, Matt explains how play, laziness, and curiosity drive his invention process. He also touches on how GenAI changes our relationship to search, learning, and even design itself—pushing us into a world where conversations with information replace traditional retrieval methods. The discussion spans adaptive design, epistemic journeys, and the potential for everyone to become a maker of tools, apps, and meaning.

• What “weak signals” are and how to spot early design cues in new technology
• Why GenAI feels like a 10-year leap in computing power—and how to design with that mindset
• How personal curiosity projects can reveal deep insights about new tech before it goes mainstream
• Why search is really an epistemic journey, and how conversational AI changes how we learn
• How vibe coding and adaptive design are re-emerging as relevant frameworks in the GenAI era
• What happens when anyone can build mini-apps instantly, and what that means for design, trust, and distribution

0:21 - Meet Matt

4:13 - When AI is ubiquitous 

5:39 - How Matt got ahead of the curve

9:22 - Faster and cheaper

11:40 - Conversing vs searching

17:31 - Why you need the Rosenverse

19:50 - What you can expect from Matt at the Designing with AI Conference – exploring weak signals

25:39 - Exploring the weak signal of mini-apps

28:27 - Matt’s gift for listeners

Designing with AI 2025 - June 10-11 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

Simonwillison.net  https://simonwillison.net/

The Complete Cosmicomics by Italo Calvino  https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Cosmicomics-Italo-Calvino/dp/0544577876

“ Find things that are happening with just a small number of people and go, ‘Oh, that's interesting. Let's do that in a bigger way.’”

“ All the properties are inherent here. We just need to kind of un-bottle our imaginations to see what's already in front of our faces.”

“ The epistemic journey piece trumps the accuracy piece.”

Llewyn and Lou explore the parallels between now-defunct technologies and today’s AI surge, noting how often new tools are overmarketed before their implications are truly understood. Llewyn urges researchers to engage with AI not as passive users but as experimenters: to test, retest, document, and analyze like scientists. Her recent workshop revealed how even identical prompts to the same model can yield wildly different results—an important reminder that AI is non-deterministic and context-sensitive.

Llewyn also shares a behind-the-scenes look at curating the Designing with AI 2025 conference, built around both the realities of today and the creative possibilities of tomorrow. She reminds us that critical thinking, experimentation, and thoughtful documentation are the UX research community’s superpowers in this unpredictable AI era.

• Why Llewyn’s background in cognitive psychology shapes her skepticism toward overhyped tech
• How past experiences with neuromarketing and 3D TV inform her approach to AI in UX
• What it means to treat AI prompts and outputs as experimental variables—not deterministic tools
• Why researchers should go straight to the models (not third-party tools) when exploring AI
• How variability in AI output challenges assumptions about accuracy and reproducibility
• What the Designing with AI 2025 conference reveals about balancing realism and creativity in tech adoption

0:09 - Introduction of Llewyn and her journey as a UX researcher

5:25 - The limits and over-selling of neuro marketing

8:42 - A critique of AI as an analysis tool

11:55 - An experiment with AI

15:45 - A process to add consistency to working and researching with AI tools

17:21 - “Why Johnny Can’t Prompt”

19:09 - Why you should use the Rosenverse

21:24 - The upcoming Designing with AI conference

25:38 - The structure and panels of the conference

28:55 - Llewyn’s gift for listeners

“Why Johnny Can’t Prompt” https://dl.acm.org/doi/full/10.1145/3544548.3581388

AI Snake Oil: What Artificial Intelligence Can Do, What It Can’t, and How to Tell the Difference by Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691249131

Designing with AI 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

“ I've seen from a lot of my designer colleagues the same ambivalence where there are a lot of things that AI allows us to do really well. But it's also oversold.”

“ If you're creating a new method or running a new kind of analysis, you do it multiple times. You statistically test it. You vary your inputs and your outputs until you are consistently getting predictable results. And I think we should be doing the same thing with AI.”

Lou and Joshua discuss workplace power dynamics, emotional triggers, and avoidance patterns, showing how even a moment of pause can shift the outcome. Joshua’s advice? Slow down. Breathe. Ask questions that begin with what or how instead of why. And remember, you're allowed to step away and come back—conflict doesn't need to be resolved in the heat of the moment. 

Whether you're facing pay disputes, boundary violations, or breakdowns in trust, Joshua’s goal isn’t to script your response but to equip you with flexible, self-aware tools you can adapt to your own voice.

• Why Joshua Graves, an artist with a love for spooky aesthetics, is an unexpected but deeply thoughtful guide to conflict.
• How his personal discomfort with confrontation led to years of research in psychology, neuroscience, and communication.
• Why our brains interpret digital conflict—like emails or Slack messages—as real threats, and what that means for how we respond.
• What it means to treat tough conversations like design problems, working within human constraints rather than against them.
• How slowing down and asking the right questions can transform emotionally charged moments into opportunities for clarity and connection.
• Why one-size-fits-all advice doesn’t work—and how Graves’ approach helps you develop your own voice in conflict.

0:12 - Meet Joshua Graves

2:45 - The background of Joshua’s book, We Need to Talk

7:30 - Helpful rabbit holes when researching and writing We Need to Talk

10:00 - Advice for tough conversations

16:23 - Why you should use the Rosenverse

18:38 - What to do when someone is out of control

22:07 - “Conversations” to have with yourself

25:20 - Joshua’s gift for the audience

We Need to Talk: A Survival Guide for Tough Conversations by Joshua Graves

Lost Horse Labs https://www.losthorse.design 

Rock band - Lord Huron https://www.lordhuron.com/#/ 

“I have this deep curiosity about the patterns that we find ourselves in, why we think the way we do, how we perceive things the way that we do.” 

“Understanding constraints helps you figure out what is outside your control or influence.” 

“Asking questions that start with ‘what’ and ‘how’ are immensely more helpful than asking ‘Why did you do that?’”

“At nearly no point are you obligated to stay in a hard, hot conversation. You can withdraw for a minute.”

Drawing on his work with the ResearchOps community, Burghardt outlines three root causes of research waste: poor preparation, lack of motivation to use insights, and weak integration into decision-making processes. He introduces practical frameworks, like the concept of an “Insight Summary Hub,” that help organizations surface, prioritize, and apply past research effectively. Whether you're at a startup or a large enterprise, Burghardt emphasizes that moving from isolated studies to collective knowledge-sharing is critical to building true research wealth—and creating a culture where insights drive action.

• Why conducting great studies isn’t enough to ensure research impact.
• The three root causes of research waste—and how to address them.
• How to prepare research for long-term relevance, not just short-term use.
• Why building an Insight Summary Hub creates more value than a simple report repository.
• How researchers can shift from isolated study outputs to integrated knowledge ecosystems.
• Why startups and large enterprises alike need to treat research as a living system, not a one-time event.

0:27 - Meet Jake Burghardt

1:16 - The motivation behind writing Stop Wasting Research

6:26 - Who is Jake’s book for?

10:01 - The root causes of research waste

15:01 - Why you should be using the Rosenverse

17:17 - A story from Lou about working with PayPal

20:31 - You’ve got research — now what? 

25:02 - Insight summary hub

27:19 - Dealing with the unknown unknowns

32:29 - Jake’s gift to listeners

Stop Wasting Research: Maximize the Product Impact of Your Organization’s Customer Insights by Jake Burghardt https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/stop-wasting-research/ 

“Common Sense AI Integration” by Alexander Knoll https://www.nngroup.com/articles/ai-integration-condens/ 

“This is not just problems but opportunities for growth.” 

“Research is too often seen as an optional input rather than a driver.”

“There is no one tool to rule them all.” 

“Owner is the most important metadata.” 

Instead of scripted discussions, Traction Heroes features Harry and Jorge reading thought-provoking passages from books to each other—without prior preparation—sparking impromptu, insightful conversations. The goal? To decode complex ideas and turn them into actionable advice for leaders and decision-makers. The pair leverage their complementary strengths: Harry’s applied, results-driven approach, and Jorge’s deep, theoretical mindset. Together, they aim to help listeners gain traction in their careers and lives, all while keeping the dialogue engaging and accessible.

Launching in January 2025, the podcast avoids technical or siloed jargon, and focuses on practical tools for structuring decisions and creating meaningful outcomes. Available on major platforms and at TractionHeroes.com, the show promises a fresh take on leadership and decision-making. 

• The story behind Jorge and Harry’s collaboration and how Traction Heroes came to life
• How their unique podcast format fosters unscripted, thought-provoking conversations
• Why they’ve chosen to avoid technical or industry-specific jargon to reach a broader audience
• What inspired their focus on leadership, decision-making, and practical insights
• How they plan to make complex ideas accessible and actionable for listeners

0:00 - Meet Jorge and Harry

2:35 - Introducing Jorge and Harry’s podcast

6:20 - How this podcast will be different

11:03 - The broadness of information architecture

15:25 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

18:18 - The format of the podcast

26:46 - Traction Heroes

28:38 - Gifts for listeners

Duly Noted by Jorge Arango https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/duly-noted-extend-your-mind-through-connected-notes/?srsltid=AfmBOoqTYFFeCJk4mM_q1cRyAaSR0L8QYwRZL8ATzPzzBBqrdy8b8Kzk

Living in Information by Jorge Arango https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/living-in-information/

Managing Priorities by Harry Max https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/managing-priorities/

Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud https://www.drcloud.com/books/necessary-endings 

The 12-Month Immersion Course in Humanities by The Honest Broker, Ted Gioia https://www.honest-broker.com/p/a-12-month-immersive-course-in-humanities 

TractionHeroes.com 

“ I'm trying to live in that space of being very much alive as an artist. And yet I'm a professional and I'm trying to push that forward as well.”

“ How you categorize things has a tremendous impact on how you understand the world. If you think about that as kind of like the baseline, then the implications for strategic decision making are clear.”

“ For any number of years at a number of different companies, my title was "special staff" because they didn't know what to call me. I didn't know what to call me.”

“ I think we'll probably be talking about information architecture a lot. I suspect we'll never mention that term.”

Robin explores how organizations often present themselves based on internal hierarchies—rather than how customers actually engage with them—and how researchers can help bridge this gap. She also discusses the critical need for sense-making, the skills researchers should develop to navigate complex systems, and why UX research must expand beyond just improving digital products.

As a speaker at Advancing Research 2025, Robin will offer practical strategies for researchers to drive real change within their organizations.

• How a transactional mindset and rigid knowledge management systems prevent companies from evolving and making smarter decisions
• Why researchers must move beyond producing reports and instead act as catalysts for organizational learning and reflection
• Why many companies structure their communication and services based on internal silos rather than customer needs—and how researchers can help fix this disconnect
• Why the most critical challenges in delivering great experiences aren’t just about interfaces or technology, but about strategy, culture, and alignment within the organization
• The key competencies researchers need, including critical thinking, sense-making, and the ability to navigate complex organizational systems
• Practical advice on positioning yourself as a strategic consultant, influencing decision-making, and ensuring research findings lead to meaningful action

0:00 - Meet Robin

2:35 - Researchers are knowledge curators, and knowledge is social. 

6:01 - The problem of organizations being transactional with knowledge

9:35 - Research should prompt reflection, and what it looks like when it doesn’t

14:55 - Designing with AI 2025 - June 10 & 11

17:13 - What it means to be a curator of a multi-siloed environment and how researchers need to adapt

26:35 - On research repositories

31:36 - Robin’s gift for listeners

Advancing Research 2025 – March 11-33 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/2025/ 

Ubuntu Culture Company https://www.ubuntuculturecompany.com/ 

Who Do We Choose to Be?: Facing Reality, Claiming Leadership, Restoring Sanity by Margaret Wheatley https://www.amazon.com/Who-Choose-Second-Leadership-Restoring/dp/1523004738 

“ Researchers are going to need to take on a different role, a more powerful, holistic role as knowledge curators.”

“Knowledge becomes wisdom and learning through reflection.”

“You don’t own this research. The company owns the research.”

“ For years we've been trying to win in business by breaking things into smaller and smaller parts so that we can control them and manage complexity, but more and more the problems that we are faced with are so complex that we need to put the pieces back together and see holes.”

Katie dives into the power of survey experiments, explaining how they can uncover deep psychological insights and help teams prioritize what to A/B test. She also discusses the value of meta-analysis and literature reviews, showing how researchers can tap into existing knowledge to save time and uncover patterns.

With two talks lined up at Advancing Research 2025, Katie will explore experimental research techniques and the impact of meta-analysis in UX. She also shares her favorite research tools, the importance of repositories, and why Hidden Brain is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by human behavior.

If you’re looking to level up your research game and future-proof your career, don’t miss this conversation!

• What to expect when transitioning from academic research to the business sector
• How to Use Survey Experiments for Deep Insights
• The power of existing research – both internal and external
• Katie’s favorite tools for UX researchers
• A strategy for future-proofing your research career

0:00 - Katie’s journey into research

3:53 - The challenges of transitioning from an academic to a business setting, and how research is conducted in an academic setting versus a large business

8:25 - Designing with AI 2025 - June 10 & 11

9:44 - About Advancing Research 2025

11:03 - An overview of Experimental Research TEchniques for Deep Psychology-Driven Insights

13:02 - Research and experiments in business

16:46 - AB testing and Qualtrics 

17:39 - An overview of Finding the Unknown in the Known: Harnessing Meta-Analysis and Literature Review

20:01 - What is meta-analysis, anyway?

22:47 - Katie’s gift for listeners

Advancing Research 2025 - March 11-13 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/2025/ 

Rosenverse discussion between Caroline Jarrett and Aaron Weigel https://rosenfeldmedia.com/sessions/have-fun-with-statistics/

Hidden Brain podcast https://hiddenbrain.org/ 

“ It's about being able to pursue questions that will have an impact on the business and the stakeholders around you versus ones that are just interesting to know.”

“ It's less about their questions and more about their goals and understanding what decisions they need to make, and then deriving the questions that need to be answered to inform those decisions.”

Dan shares his innovation team's unique approach to failure: celebrating it with “failure cake.” This ritual helps his team process setbacks, learn from them, and destigmatize failure in a supportive environment. He also emphasizes the importance of storytelling, arguing that even the best ideas are meaningless if they can’t be communicated clearly. The conversation highlights how embracing failure and sharing its lessons are essential for growth, whether in aviation, design, or technology.

Mark your calendars! Lou announces that Dan will headline Rosenfeld Media’s first Failure Friday on February 7, 2025, where he’ll further discuss the failure cake practice. 

• How studying failure can accelerate innovation and prevent repeated mistakes.
• Insights from Dan Ward’s book Lift, exploring the untold stories of aviation failures before the Wright brothers' success.
• The value of storytelling in technology and why clear communication is essential for impactful ideas.
• How establishing rituals around failure encourages an atmosphere of innovation

0:00 - Meet Dan Ward, an author and military technologist

3:19 - The stories of failed flights pre-Wright Siblings

8:56 - The scientific method vs alternative methods

12:36 - Failure stories make for good reading

16:04 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

18:27 - The psychology behind speaking about failure

22:03 - Characteristics of a good failure story; and Failure Friday in the Rosenverse

24:13 - Failure cake

25:28 - Dan’s gift for the audience

Fading the Spectrum https://www.instagram.com/fadingthespectrum/ 

LIFT: Innovation Lessons From Flying Machines That ALMOST Worked And The People Who NEARLY Flew Them by Dan Ward http://www.thedanward.com/lift/ 

TheDanWard.com https://www.thedanward.com/ 

“ The sooner you can face it, study it, name it, learn from it, the better off you'll be.”

“ If we're denying and ignoring our failures, guess what happens. We repeat them.”

“Studying failure is a great practice in any domain.”

“The best ideas in the world are worthless if you can’t express them clearly.”

“ It can be challenging to admit ignorance. It can be challenging to admit failure because that seems to undermine my credibility and my value as a professional in this field. But the good news is we do have an opportunity to flip that on its head without completely rewriting expert culture or getting rid of expert culture entirely.”

“A sign of a world-class professional is they admit when they are wrong.”

“Failure is when effort does not produce the desired result.”

Brandon has a big heart, and it can be felt in his conversation with Lou. They discuss his education and career path, highlighting his leadership role at Adaptive Path where the agency thrived by sharing knowledge and empowering new talent. As CEO, Brandon navigated business challenges and focused on building lasting client relationships and expanding the agency's impact. This experience eventually led to Adaptive Path's acquisition by Capital One, which marked a significant turning point in Brandon's career.

His transition to climate work was driven by a growing concern for the environment. After struggling to find a direct path connecting design and climate change, Brandon discovered a role at Rare, an organization focused on behavioral change to reduce U.S. carbon emissions. His team at Rare works to identify and promote lifestyle changes, such as how people eat, travel, and power their homes. 

Brandon also shares how his design background continues to influence his work at Rare, particularly in "behavior placement"—a method of subtly integrating eco-friendly choices into entertainment to normalize sustainable behaviors. He emphasizes the soft power designers hold, noting how they can integrate sustainability into their work, even if their roles aren’t explicitly focused on climate. By doing so, designers can influence corporate decisions and consumer behaviors, helping to create a shift toward more sustainable norms in everyday life.

• About Brandon’s career path
• The ideas behind Adaptive Path that propelled its success
• How Brandon transitioned his focus to climate change
• How designers can help the planet without changing careers

0:21 - Introduction of Brandon

5:12 - Adaptive Path and how they attracted talent

10:09 - The founders of Adaptive Path receded, and the team became the focus

13:55 - Reflections on being the CEO

18:26 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

21:04 - Brandon’s path to senior vice president of Climate Culture at Rare

27:09 - Using concepts from design to solve problems

29:59 - Designers impacting climate change 

34:50 - Dynamic norms

37:38 - Brandon’s gift for listeners

Rare https://rare.org/ 

Follow Brandon on X https://twitter.com/brandonschauer 

Dr. Katherine Hayhoe on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/katharinehayhoe/ 

“Where we'll really scale is through  community and we'll really scale through sharing our ideas.”

“We’re about creating great human experiences, and the more of those we create, the better it gets.”

“We don’t want to do the most projects. We just want to affect the most positive change we can.” 

“Designers may not have the most control over the product, but design is rendering intent.” 

“There's a lot of opportunity for designers to not just change jobs but think about how they include issues of climate, issues of carbon emissions, issues of sustainability into the work they do every day.”

“Little decisions by designers have soft power that can have a really big impact over time.”

Rosa discusses the process of bringing her idea to the public, emphasizing the importance of listening to the community and allowing the vision to evolve through conversations. Rather than adhering to a rigid design from the start, she facilitates discussions with local stakeholders to ensure the park meets the needs of the people it serves. She highlights the significance of respecting the space's history while meeting contemporary needs.

Their conversation also touches on Gotham Park's early successes, including the opening of the first acre and the push to revive iconic spaces like the Brooklyn Banks skate park. Rosa's approach has been one of connection and collaboration, bridging gaps between individuals and organizations to create a public space that fosters unity. Listen and be inspired!

• The Vision Behind Gotham Park – To transform nine acres of neglected space beneath the Brooklyn Bridge into a vibrant, accessible public park for the community.
• The Role of Community Engagement – Discover how Rosa involved local residents and stakeholders in shaping the park, ensuring it meets the needs and desires of the people it’s meant to serve.
• Overcoming Bureaucratic Challenges – Hear about the obstacles Rosa faced in navigating New York City’s bureaucracy and how she’s used persistence and creativity to overcome them.
• The Power of Public Spaces – Understand the importance of creating public spaces that are inclusive, open, and accessible to all, and how these spaces can foster connection and community.
• The Importance of Adaptability – Rosa’s flexible approach to the project allows the vision to evolve based on feedback and the changing needs of the community.
• Rosa’s Challenge to Listeners – step outside your comfort zone and connect with someone new, embodying the spirit of Gotham Park in everyday life.

0:00 - Meet Rosa

1:49 - The vision of Gotham Park

4:52 - Progress already made

7:59 - The vision 

10:55 - Rosa’s background

13:20 - Why you need the Rosenverse

15:34 - Visions past and present

19:58 - Conversation before renderings; the anchoring values

23:20 - More facilitator, less designer 

27:14 - Catching visions through history and renderings

31:41 - Rosa’s gift for listeners

Gotham Park https://gothampark.org/ 

Rosa Chang New York Times article https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/27/nyregion/gotham-park-brooklyn-bridge-rosa-chang.html 

“Time matters. It’s critical.”

“These decisions aren’t made. They just happen. If people were focusing on them, they wouldn’t happen that way.” 

“A lot of times the decisions are made at such a high level.  that the impact on the local sort of granular level is not understood.”

“That's been the process for us – to shine a light on the problems but also present potential solutions so that we can break it down and just make that process easier.”

“I think part of the magic is not having that anchor but being open to the possibilities that you can't imagine.”

“The answer is not in any one person, but the answer is in all of them, the lives that are lived right here.”

Heidi stresses the necessity of cross-disciplinary collaboration, especially when dealing with sensitive data like personally identifiable information (PII) and electronic protected health information (EPHI). She points out how involving legal and security teams early can streamline projects and improve outcomes. Designers, as facilitators, must bridge the gap between complex security concepts and user comprehension. Heidi’s book helps them do this by using personas to understand how the dynamic between users, security UX, and threat actors shapes. 

Lou and Heidi’s conversation explores the evolution of multi-factor authentication (MFA) and its unintended consequences. What started as a simple 6-digit code morphed into a troublesome fatigue for users. Heidi underscores the importance of iterative design to adapt to these evolving challenges, likening the chaos of security interactions to a relentless ping-pong match.

As they look ahead, Louis and Heidi discuss the rapid evolution of AI in security contexts, emphasizing the balance between technological advancement and user protection. With AI assistants poised to know more about individuals than ever, designers must remain vigilant to prevent potential misuse. Their conversation is an invitation for professionals to rethink how they approach security UX and design, encouraging a proactive stance in this ever-changing landscape. 

• The Importance of Safety Protocols: Just as climbers rely on safety checks, security UX requires robust protocols to protect users from potential threats.
• Cross-Disciplinary Collaboration: The value of involving legal, privacy, and security teams early in the design process to streamline project timelines and enhance security measures.
• User Dynamics: Insights into the complex relationships between users, security measures, and threat actors, and how these dynamics affect user trust and experience.
• Iterative Design in Security: The necessity of adapting security measures, such as multi-factor authentication, based on user feedback and evolving threats to avoid fatigue and exploitation.
• The security threats of AI: The challenges and considerations of integrating AI technologies in security systems, focusing on the need for vigilance to prevent misuse and ensure user protection.
• The Role of Designers as Facilitators: How designers can bridge the gap between complex security concepts and user comprehension, fostering better communication and understanding in security UX.

0:25 - Meet Heidi and get a rock climbing primer

5:55 - Emerging protocols in the security space

8:20 - The designer’s role in security

10:13 - Other “roles” - the user, the security user experience, the threat actor

15:09 - Designers as translators, conversation facilitators, and advocates

17:22 - Rosenverse – why you need it

19:44 - Security UX vs other types of UX

22:38 - The threat actor

 26:06 - Changes and threats with AI

31:59 - Heidi’s gift for listeners

Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems that are Both Safe and Usable by Heidi Trost

Start at the End by Matt Wallaert https://www.amazon.com/Start-End-Products-Create-Change/dp/0525534423 

Matt Wallaert on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jGPUntrvxMl6t-H-t2isA  and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattwallaert/ 

“People are people, and people forget things.”

“UX teams and development teams now have learned the hard way that it's much easier to involve these cross-disciplinary teams from the very beginning, so they don't stop your projects.”

“When teams are brought together, they come up with better, more effective solutions that are both secure and usable.”

“Humans are humans, including security people.”

“UX designers need to understand what you’re protecting and where things could go wrong.”

Starting as a design student at SCAD, Carol’s career path has taken her to management consulting and now to her pivotal position at Northwell’s Enterprise Digital Service division.

Carol discusses her team's unique approach to service design, acting as translators of human insights for digital services. Her team’s work involves transforming research and data into actionable insights, creating playbooks, and facilitating collaboration across various departments. The focus is on enhancing patient and clinician experiences by streamlining administrative tasks through innovative digital tools.

Throughout the conversation, Carol highlights the importance of building relationships and humanizing interactions. She shares insights on using familiar frameworks to engage clinicians and bridge gaps in communication, ensuring that all stakeholders understand the shared goals of improving patient care.

• The Role of Service Design in Healthcare: Understanding how service design can improve patient and clinician experiences within large healthcare systems like Northwell Health
• Collaboration Across Disciplines: How a small service design team collaborates with various departments and stakeholders, including clinicians, engineers, and business strategists, to enhance service delivery
• Translating Insights into Action: Techniques for translating complex data and human insights into actionable strategies and digital tools that address specific needs
• Humanizing Interactions: The importance of building personal relationships and fostering open communication to bridge gaps
• Prototyping and Testing Ideas: How rapid prototyping and testing can be used to validate ideas and improve processes, ensuring that new tools and services effectively meet user needs.
• Adapting Existing Frameworks: Creative approaches to leveraging existing frameworks (like problems, goals, and tasks) in a way that resonates with different audiences, particularly in translating technical language for clinicians.

0:00 - Meet Carol

2:02 - Service design at Northwell

7:25 - The makeup of the service design team

9:49 - The operational tools and documentation the team uses

13:46 - An example of incorporating and automating a new operational process

17:36 - Why you need the Rosenverse

20:04 - Action-driven problems, goals, and tasks

24:35 - Breaking into established systems

29:02 - Carol’s gift for listeners 

Advancing Service Design (inaugural conference) https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

Everyday Astronaut https://www.youtube.com/everydayastronaut 

“We serve almost as a shield for translating human insights and making sure we find ways to communicate that for a technological purpose.”

“Think of us as catching all the unique things or the squishy things that don't make sense in a company. We're the ones trying to make sense of it.”

One of the standout insights from the conversation is the vital role of time in enacting change. Luke argues that significant systems change requires a long-term commitment, with research indicating that anything less than three years typically fails to yield lasting results. This understanding is crucial, especially when organizations often seek quick wins that can lead to a cycle of temporary fixes without addressing deeper issues.

Ultimately, our discussion reveals that provoking change is not just about identifying problems or changing individuals; it's about creating a collective vision and investing the time and energy required to realize it. As we navigate complex systems across various sectors, embracing the challenge of systems change can lead to meaningful and sustainable transformation.

• The Nature of Systems Change: Understanding that systems are complex and often resistant to change, requiring a nuanced approach to provoke transformation.
• The Importance of Time: Recognizing that meaningful systems change typically takes at least three years, challenging the desire for quick wins and highlighting the need for long-term commitment.
• Energy Dynamics in Systems: Exploring how the flow of information and attention affects change efforts, and how misdirection can stall progress.
• Collaboration Across Stakeholders: The necessity of fostering collaboration among all participants—whether in education, healthcare, or corporate environments—to create a shared vision for change.
• Provocation as a Tool for Change: Learning how to challenge existing norms and behaviors within a system without blaming individuals, thereby encouraging open dialogue and reflection.
• Practical Examples and Insights: Gaining insights from real-world examples, such as the education system, to illustrate how systemic issues can perpetuate negative outcomes and the strategies needed to address them.

0:14 - Meet Luke

2:40 - An example of change at a system level - bullying in schools

5:50 - Helpful frameworks - mapping and metaphors

9:06 - Why training individuals is not a long-term solution

14:00 - The window of change

18:13 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

20:28 -  Provoking systems

24:58 - Flow of energy

28:49 - Luke’s gift for listeners 

Advancing Service Design - December 3-4, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/

The Grasshopper: Games, Life, and Utopia by Bernard Suits https://www.amazon.com/Grasshopper-Third-Games-Life-Utopia/dp/1554812151/

Leading Schools and Sustaining Innovation by Luke Roberts https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Schools-Sustaining-Innovation-Roberts/dp/1032015624/

“Systems get into rituals and routines that normalize types of behavior. And so you need to provoke them in some way to see what they're capable of doing differently.”

“Systems are very good at dehumanizing.”

“Training an individual is the fastest route to failure because either that individual gets a new thing that they have to deal with, or that individual leave eventually. For leaders to take a more systemic view of things, it's about really saying, how do we make sure the things that we value most are sustained over time?”

“Systems are very good at being resilient.”

“You have to have empathy for the individual, but you can have frustration with the system.”

In Lou and Amanda’s discussion, she reflects on her journey into OD. She explains that OD focuses on helping teams step back and evaluate how they work together, addressing the complexities and “weirdness” that can emerge in workplace dynamics. They discuss the ideal environment for creating effective change in an organization, emphasizing the importance of neutrality, creativity, and ownership. 

Amanda shares a personal story about being a caregiver at a young age for her ill mother.  She reflects, “My best experiences in healthcare are when people have broken the rules.” Today, she brings stakeholders together so that procedures can be rewritten to make protocols efficient and effective for all involved—and she’ll bring her experience and OD perspective to her panel at Advancing Service Design 2024 (virtual, December 3-4). 

• The purpose of Organizational Development and who typically does it
• Common “weird” challenges organizations face
• When and why organizations should bring in consultants, like OD specialists, to provide a neutral perspective and facilitate better communication and problem-solving
• Amanda’s career path and the rich experiences that inform her work today

0:14 - Meet Amanda

1:50 - Systems and organizational development share a focus on frameworks and language

5:08 - What is and who does organizational development?

6:24 - Being aware of what’s weird and doing something about it

9:43 - The triggers that expose the need for an organizational development specialist

14:21 - Creating space that invites change and creativity

17:15 - 5 things about the Rosenverse 

19:53 - How Amanda’s experience with the National Health Services in the UK has influenced her work today

27:27 - Amanda’s gift for listeners

Advancing Service Design Conference - December 3-4, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/

Tomorrowmind: Thriving at Work with Resilience, Creativity, and Connection―Now and in an Uncertain Future by Martin Seligman and Gabriella Rosen Kellerman https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrowmind-Resilience-Creativity-Connection_Now-Uncertain/dp/1982159766

“I often talk about when things get weird because people are weird.”  

“If what you’re after is that thing, I’m really confused about why you’re doing that [other] thing.”

“I think there are just some people – and I'm one of them – that goes, no, I refuse to go to a meeting that was a waste of time or was unclear about what we were trying to get out of it.”

“My best experiences in healthcare are when people have broken the rules.”  

“That’s not really the process, but we can see it’s the right thing.”  

“The norm has been for it to not be designed. [The process] just kind of emerged.”

“What is the journey of somebody experiencing a need and getting the help that we have to offer, and how can we think more systemically about that, and more holistically about that?”

“The people who are working in these services know the answers. The wisdom is in that system about what is working and what isn't. And if we could just help the communication between those different people, then amazing things will happen.”

The music analogies are plenty. One example is the importance of orchestration in design operations, equating it to coordinating a team to work harmoniously, much like a conductor leading an orchestra. Rachel and John explain that design operations is a creative process, blending design and management, and that those creative aspects are often underestimated.

They highlight the maturing nature of design operations as a discipline, noting that the book fills a gap in resources for both newcomers and experienced professionals. The book is structured in two acts (another musical metaphor): the fundamentals of DesignOps, and the practical, tactical methods for building and scaling teams.

Rachel and John also discuss some common challenges in DesignOps, like making the invisible work visible and advocating for the value of the discipline. They stress the importance of "working loudly" to ensure that the contributions of design ops teams are recognized so that teams are properly resourced.

• Why Rachel and John chose a musical metaphor to use in their book
• Why Rachel and John decided to write the first book on Design Ops
• How the book is formatted and why there is something for everyone
• Why Rachel encourages her team to “work louder”

0:24 - Introduction of Rachel and John

2:45 - Brining a music metaphor to design ops and highlighting the creativity within operations

6:53 - The design materials of operations

7:42 - Communication

9:40 - Building the plane while flying

11:06 - What the book covers and who it’s for

14:22 - 5 reasons you need the Rosenverse

17:14 - The journey readers can expect to take

21:07 - The big errors and challenges in design ops

23:34 - Ideas for working loud and being visible

27:06 - Gifts for listeners

The Design Conductors: Your Essential Guide to Design Operations by Rachel Posman and John Calhoun https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/design-operations/ 

99 Percent Invisible Podcast https://99percentinvisible.org/ 

Adam Grant https://adamgrant.net/ 

“We use the methods of designers. The only difference is the experiences that we're making are the experience of making. It's the processes, not the pixels. It's the people, not the product.”

“Design ops is a form of design.”

“Operations can be invisible, especially if it’s done well.”

“Visibility is the most vital thing to be focusing on. You can't expect executives and stakeholders to invest in and prioritize your team's efforts without making your work visible.”

Lou and Daniel discuss the impact of rituals and mission statements on both teams and individuals. They also explore the impact of a team’s operating models on the broader organization and how interactions with various teams can foster shared understanding within the broader context of the organization. 

• How mission statements can inspire and drive operating models
• The power of organic rituals and the unusual, unifying ritual of Daniel’s team at JP Morgan Chase
• How cross-pollinating between teams can create a shared vocabulary and increase understanding

2:36 - Introduction of Daniel

3:14 - Co-creating operating models with a team

4:33 - On mission and operating models

7:19 - Quarterly impact retrospectives

9:16 - Rituals and mission 

12:55 - Co-creating operating models

15:34 - Why you need the Rosenverse

18:39 - Operating models’ effects on broader organizations

21:00 - Shared vocabulary

23:07 - Cross-pollinating in organizations to facilitate shared understanding

25:05 - Operating models and the individual

28:09 - Daniel’s gift for the audience

DesignOps Summit

Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War by John Coram https://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Who-Changed/dp/0316796883

Pieces of the Action by Vannevar Bush https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Action-Vannevar-Bush/dp/1953953204 

“If we’re going to develop a healthy operating model, we need a team mission.” 

“The operating model isn’t static. It’s a contract, but it’s something that you continue to evolve over time.”

“Inspiration is a strong motivator. It provides clarity, especially in moments of adversity.”

“The rituals and ceremonies are a scaffolding for our culture.” 

“Openness as a leader, telling the team, ‘I'm open to evolving this. You also have a pen to write the story with me,’ is a huge lever you can pull to get the team bought in and get them owning the process.”

“You either happen to work or work happens to you. Having a strong personal operating model is the best defense against having work happen to you.”

Much of the UX/UI talent in the Philippines is self-taught, often struggling with the gap between academic training and industry expectations. To address this, JP developed a systematic approach to training and design processes.  

JP and Lou discuss how Frost has embraced data-driven design, which, contrary to the creative chaos one might expect, has led to more efficient workflows and better client outcomes. By integrating tools like Trello and Figma, and leveraging AI for task management, JP has significantly reduced administrative overhead. This approach allows designers to focus on their work rather than getting bogged down in busywork. They can track work in real-time, eliminating the need for status meetings and improving overall productivity—a win-win for both the team and their clients.

• How JP and his team at Frost systematically integrated data into their creative processes
• How JP addressed the talent gap in his company
• The tools he uses to track workflows and achieve always-current status on projects
• How probabilistic analysis helps predict project timelines and manage client expectations more accurately
• How JP is integrating AP in the project-tracking process

0:13 - Introduction of John Paul

2:16 - The path that got John Paul where he is today

5:18 - What it means to be data-driven

8:39 - Systematizing the data-driven design process by tracking workflows

11:58 - Mapping the workflow

16:01 - Break

18:45 - Tools for probabilistic analysis and managing time

24:11 - The level of granularity John Paul’s team tracks

25:56 - Handling aspects of work that are more conceptual and difficult to atomize

30:46 -  John Paul’s gift for listeners

DesignOps Summit 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/2024/ 

John Paul’s free boot camp for designers

“There’s a downside to having so much talent.” 

“When you add more people, quality starts to degrade.”

“It's because of the way we track this data and then use them to our benefit that we're able to understand not only the flow of the work but also the nuance of how the work is being done.”

“[Thanks to AI,] rather than tracking the work, we actually do the work.”

“The big advantage of this – nobody needs to ask what the status of the work is.”

In this podcast episode, Ignacio and Lou explore the importance of a well-structured evaluation framework that highlights “glows and grows” in the areas of craft, quality, client interaction, and teamwork. Ignacio’s system, built on the very accessible Google Sheets, combines quantitative metrics with qualitative feedback to reduce bias and offer a comprehensive assessment of designers' performance. His framework allows for continuous feedback from peers, project directors, and supervisors. 

• The principles and methodologies behind creating a fair and effective designer evaluation system

• How contributions from peers, career managers, and directors can create a robust evaluation system

• The importance of a structured framework with clear categories and traits such as craft, quality, client interaction, and teamwork.

• The benefits of incorporating both quantitative metrics and qualitative feedback to minimize bias and provide comprehensive evaluations.

• How to create a framework for continuous ongoing feedback from peers, project directors, and supervisors
• How evaluation criteria may evolve based on internal priorities

0:13 - Intro of Ignacio

3:54 - Evaluating designers then and now

6:32 - Gut feelings versus using a system

8:27 - Defining desired traits and levels

11:49 - The framework of the documentation

14:54 - The Rosenverse

17:34 - Who are the evaluators? Are they biased? Are they anonymous? 

21:33 - The frequency of evaluations 

22:36 - Consider what makes the business run

26:05 - The importance of transparency

26:51 - Ignacio’s gift for listeners

Blurb of Ignacio’s “Fair and Effective Designer Evaluation” https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/2024/sessions/fair-and-effective-designer-evaluation/ 

Design Ops Summit - September 23-25 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/2024/

Rosenverse https://rosenfeldmedia.com/rosenverse/

Donald Glover https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2255973/

“We wanted to make sure that designers felt comfortable in how they were being evaluated.”

“We want a generalized designer with a lot of ambiguity, which is something that we deal with a lot, and be able to use a lot of different skill sets.”

In her interview with Lou, Kate reflects on her journey from content strategist to a pivotal figure in the research operations community. She recounts her early days at the UK Government Digital Service, where she unexpectedly found herself building research labs, and later at Atlassian, where she helped develop systems to manage vast amounts of research data. Through her work, Kate realized the need for a more structured approach to research operations, leading to facilitating a global ResearchOps community. Oh, and along the way, she coined the term “PWDR” (“People Who Do Research”).

The conversation delves into the strategic importance of ResearchOps, emphasizing that it’s much more than just administrative support—it's about designing systems that enable organizations to effectively learn and innovate. Kate likens research operations to city planning, highlighting the need for strategy to build successful, sustainable systems.

• How Kate’s early work in content strategy and her experiences at the UK Government Digital Service (GDS) led to the work she does today
• The importance of aligning research operations with a clear research strategy
• How research operations have evolved over the years
• The distinction between research and insights, and the value of turning research findings into actionable insights that drive decision-making

0:27 - Introduction of Kate and her book

3:32 - Kate’s ah-ha moment

9:38 - Facilitating a global conversation before writing the book

11:47 - 8 elements unique to operations

14:09 - The Rosenverse

16:56 - Defining research operations

16:15 - Strategy in operations

20:50 - A story from overlooking the Hudson River in 2018

23:58 - On insight

27:14 - Human-centered research 

32:04 - Kate’s gift for listeners

Research That Scales: The Research Operations Handbook by Kate Towsey https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/research-that-scales/ 

Cha-Cha Club https://chacha.club/ 

“I feel like we have to have strategy to get through our lives.” 

“One of my biggest goals for this year is to make sure that we can continue to shift the notion that research operations is administrative help.”

“Research operations design all of the systems that enable people of all types to commute to the research landscape.”

“You can only set out operations when you know what you're setting out operations for.”

“How do we get people to have that inward sight about something so that we can actually have results? Otherwise, it's just really well done research.”

“My hope is that you read it once and you’re just reprogrammed to be able to think operationally.”

Ben Reason and Patrick Quattlebaum think so. They’re veteran service designers and co-authors of a pair of Rosenfeld books—Service Design: From Insight to Implementation and Orchestrating Experiences respectively.

Ben, founder of LiveWork Studio, and Patrick, who founded Harmonic Design in Atlanta, join Lou to talk about launching a new Rosenfeld conference—Advancing Service Design—designed to highlight the service design’s potential for a new generation. They see opportunities for service design to go deeper—by integrating with and strengthening existing practices, like product management and agile, and broader—by better connecting systems that span multiple organizations (think healthcare).

Working with the Rosenfeld team, they’re creating a conference program that you can be a part of—they describe the kinds of presentation proposals they’re looking for from prospective speakers. Patrick and Ben hope you’ll join them in advancing service design; the conference will take place virtually December 3-4. 

• The real meaning of service design
• How service design is evolving
• Some crucial differences between work in the North America and Europe
• Why communication between organizations is so important
• How the upcoming conference will inspire and support you
• How to contribute and become part of the upcoming case studies 
• How the panel discussions at the December conference will be different

0:15 - Introduction to Ben and Patrick

1:50 - Being change agents to take Service Design to the next level

5:03 - Announcing a new conference: Advancing Service Design– Looking at Service Design Through Different Lenses

6:05 - Perspectives on different sides of the Atlantic

11:30 - Why service design exists in the first place 

12:38 - More about the upcoming December virtual conference

17:40 - Call for proposals for the case studies and what they are looking for

19:00 - Ben’s ideas for the conference: The next iteration of service design going from within an organization to between multiple organizations

21:09 - Patrick’s ideas for the conference: Getting the people who want to transform things to communicate and the complexity of partnering together

23:05 - Bringing success from the inside

24:45 - Commercial break

27:10 - Personal story from Patrick about communication highlighting the broader concept of the case studies for the conference  

32:30 - Personal story from Ben about connection across systems

37:16 - A different type of panel discussion to be at the conference

40:15 - Gifts for listeners

Apply to speak at ASD2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/apply-to-speak-at-advancing-service-design-a-new-conference-from-rosenfeld/ 

LiveWork Studio  https://liveworkstudio.com/

Harmonic Design https://thisisharmonic.com/

Service Design: Form Insight to Innovation by Andy Polaine, Ben Reason & Lavrans Løvlie https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/service-design/

Orchestrating Experiences: Collaborative Design for Complexity by Chris Risdon and Patrick Quattlebaum https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/orchestrating-experiences/

Movie: Clueless  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112697/

The Ready  https://www.theready.com/

Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan  https://www.bravenewwork.com/

“We have to keep evolving in order to make impact.” 

“The reason service design exists is because services were being, and are still being, significantly disrupted by information technology and digital.”    

“When you really boil it down, there’s a handful of things we’re all trying to accomplish, and we’re better together.” 

“Everyone’s trying to transform. Can we get some of the transformers to talk together?”

“The value of service design in these contexts is to address human factors that are impediments to change.”

“In those stories, the service designers are the protagonists, but there’s these other roles, these other disciplines and roles and practices within the organization. I’m interested in having a panel of those people.”

But the fundamental principles of the original book haven’t changed. They are as solid today as they were 11 years ago. What has changed is that the methods have been adapted for the speed of change in today’s businesses. 

Joe says it best: “These methods are shorter. They're simpler. They’re more direct in a lot of ways, and they cut to the chase in a way that longer processes don’t. I've met plenty of senior people who are throwing up their hands and going, ‘We're doing all the things. Why isn't this working?’ And the truth is, they're kind of overworking and overthinking. Everything in this book is practical and direct and gets you from point A to B. I just don't think there's any better way to get there.”

• About Leah’s experience as a solo UX practitioner and the inspiration behind the first edition of UX Team of One
• How the UX field has changed over the past decade
• How the second edition aims to provide comprehensive yet practical UX methods that can be applied in various organizational settings
• About the shortcomings of UX boot camps and educational programs 
• A perspective that balances UX advocacy with business objectives and the reality of corporate politics
• How to navigate and thrive in a UX career despite industry challenges, focusing on practical, adaptable methods and tools.

0:46 - Introduction of Leah and Joe

1:33 - The User Experience Team of One, second edition

6:46 - Large or small team, Leah and Joe’s book is comprehensive without being overwhelming 

8:58 - Righting wrongs

12:14 - What’s new in the second edition – striving to do more with less

15:58 - Break - plug for the Rosenverse

18:20 - The current shitstorm

21:39 - On speed

24:40 - On toolkits. Tools and methods are two different things. 

28:16 - Who needs The User Experience Team of One?

30:45 - Leah and Joe’s gifts for the audience

Rick Rubin’s The Creative Act https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886 

Jakob Bro, jazz guitarist https://jakobbro.com/web/ 

Confessions of a Pricing Man by Hermann Simon https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Pricing-Man-Affects-Everything/dp/3319203991 

Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe https://www.amazon.com/Bonfire-Vanities-Tom-Wolfe/dp/0312427573 

The User Experience Team of One: A Research and Design Survival Guide by Leah Buley and Joe Natoli https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/the-user-experience-team-of-one-second-edition/ 

“This book is like the short course to get into work really fast. And it's optimized for how it really goes down.”

“I want simple, and I want practical because I think the world is messy. And I think work that happens inside corporate organizations is, by its very nature, messy – people, politics, pressure from all these different places that have nothing to do with product design.”

“Nobody talks about the fact that all these  detailed processes  will not fly in an organization that is obsessed with speed.”

“What we do – which is, for the most part, make digital products actually usable – is just increasingly and ever more and more central to every business. That is not going to go away at all.”

“We're still, now and in the foreseeable future, going to need to have people who know how to have a conversation with the customer.”

“If the world is not going to wait for us, then we have to adapt. The work is still worth doing.”

Erin Weigel wants us to make things better, not just different. But how do we get there?

Lou had a thoughtful and entertaining discussion with Erin, always witty and philosophical—and often funny as hell. Join them on a perspective-shifting conversation that bridges disciplines and challenges conventional thinking, all in the pursuit of genuine improvement.

Erin is the author of the recently published Design for Impact: Your Guide to Designing Effective Product Experiments. She brings a fresh, accessible, and humor-filled take on what may seem like a dry topic: experimentation. Erin digs into the role of experimentation in design, advocating for always defaulting to experiments even if they’re the quick and dirty kind.

Erin and Lou also cover the following:

• Wonky stuff like normal distributions, the central limit theorem, and what can be learned from outliers
• The power of experiments to unite multidisciplinary teams by getting away from opinions and finding the truth
• How professionals can use the principles of experimentation to navigate uncertainties and drive meaningful improvements
• Discerning the impact of changes made

• How Erin, with a fine arts background, became the principal designer at Booking.com and the Senior Group Product Design Manager at Deliveroo
• The fundamental similarities between art and science
• Why you should never skip the experimental phase
• How experimentation unites people across disciplines
• The difference between making things different and making them better

0:32 - Introduction of Erin; similarities between art and science

4:05 - Barriers between art and science

5:58 - Statistics is fun!

12:37 - Defaulting to experimentation

18:06 - Break - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

20:36 - Experimentation as a uniting force

25:49 - Make things better, not just different

28:32 - Erin’s gift for listeners

Design for Impact: Your Guide to Designing Effective Product Experiments by Erin Weigel

Ologies Podcast with Allie Ward

Rosenverse

Factfulness: 10 Reasons We’re Wrong About the World and 10 Reasons  Why Things are Better Than You Think by Hans Rosling

“There's a closer connection between art and science than people typically see on the surface.”

“The second I reframed math as a language in my brain, it became a lot less scary because I love learning languages. . . Math is the language of the universe.”

“Experimentation does have a language of its own and it uses all these different parts of your brain.”

“Make things better, not just different.”

Peter offers insight into the world of AI. Having been one of the first to speak about IA, it is fascinating to hear what he now has to say about AI. Join Lou and Peter as they take you through the journey where language itself is transforming from design to technology.

• An introduction to the Rosenbot, an AI bot that Peter’s company is developing for Rosenfeld Media
• Some basic vocabulary for speaking about AI and ML so you “don’t feel like an idiot”
• Mind-blowing truths about the potential of Generative AI’s language capabilities
• How writing has transformed from a design to a technology and learn what that means for how we interact with the data
• About the importance of highly curated information when training bots and the tricky balance that comes when you want to present less polished sources like unedited conversations
• The importance of the human side of things
• The biggest surprise that has come from working in the industry

[0:15] - Lou’s introduction of Peter Van Dijck 

[3:00] - AI on a basic level 

[4:59] - Generative AI’s language capabilities

[18:08] - How we interact with metadata and writing as a technology

[20:00] - How real-use cases make technology more exciting and instantaneous

[22:19] - Information about the new Designing With AI Conference 

[23:33] - Some of the jargon around AI and IA 

[24:16] - Introduction to Lou’s Chat Bot, the Rosen Bot

[24:39] - The importance of training bots on highly curated information

[28:34] - The tricky balance of curated and less polished content

[30:26] - The human side of things

[31:55] - Different interaction models

[37:58] - The biggest surprise working in the industry

[38:30] - A Gift For You

Peter Van Dijck Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petervandijck/

Peter’s Company, Simply Put:     https://www.getsimplyput.ai/

Information Architecture for Designers: Structuring Websites for Business Success https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YDJPPCM

The My Climate Journey Podcast: https://www.mcjcollective.com/media/podcast

"When you say it’s just predicting stuff, I think you’re underselling the real capability, because it is generating meaningful, meaningful content.”

“You know how we used to say writing is design? … well now we have writing as a technology.” 

“We can tell the thing, the machine, what we want. Before, the machine gave us options. It gave us an interface to interact with, gave us stuff to touch and buttons to click and a search box to enter something in, et cetera. Now we can ask it.” 

“ChatGPT came out, my kids’ school was on that within weeks… the real use cases come out and… they do not want to give up. Like, they will say things like, ‘yeah, my best buddy ChatGPT.’ It feels like when Google came out, but even better to something we saw.” 

“I was a little surprised by this. It started to pull out a lot more book content than it would pull out sessions in which people are discussing stuff. And we realized that the reason was, book content is already extremely highly edited. So every sentence in a book, every paragraph in a book, carries a ton of semantic meaning.” 

“We don’t know how a teacher wants to use ChatGPT until we have teachers using ChatGPT, and until they start getting a sense of the capabilities and start using it and start learning it.”

“Humans should just say what they want and the system should be good enough, smart enough… to give you what you want.” 

“We are conversational beings and the way we are reproducing that now with this new language technology that we have, like language as a technology, is super early steps, and there’s a lot to learn.”

Certainly tech workers don’t face the same kind of potential life-threatening working conditions of industrial America, but they still deserve a seat at the table when important decisions about their work are being discussed. With issues related to equality, transparency, workplace harassment, and how AI is shifting roles and affecting how work gets done, there’s a lot to talk about. 

Ethan will bring his perspective on tech workers and how they’re being impacted by AI to the upcoming Designing with AI virtual conference in June.  

• What’s attractive about unionizing for tech workers of the 2020s
• What tech workers would change if they could
• About tech walkouts and unions that have already happened 
• Helpful resources for starting conversations with coworkers
• The potential relationship among AI, reskilling, and worker unions

0:20 - Introduction of Ethan

3:35 - How Ethan became interested in the idea of tech unions

6:04 - “Weren’t unions for the manufacturing industry in the 1950s?”

9:32 - The things tech workers would change if they could

11:14 - Conversations among employees – are they safe? Are they protected?

13:28 - On organizing for the greater good of humanity

17:11 - Plug for Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions  by Harry Max

19:06 - How we should feel about AI

22:36 - AI, reskilling, and when workers don’t want to leave mundane tasks behind

31:08 - Employees “voting with their feet” is costly for organizations

33:24 - How future workers may organize as it relates to AI

36:30 - Ethan’s gift for listeners

Designing with AI virtual conference, June 4-5, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/futures/ 

You Deserve a Tech Union by Ethan Markcotte https://www.amazon.com/Deserve-Tech-Union-Ethan-Marcotte/dp/1952616603 

WorkerOrganizing.org https://workerorganizing.org/ 

Tech Workers Coalition https://techworkerscoalition.org/ 

TheFutureIsLikePie.com https://thefutureislikepie.com/ 

“The terms under which we work aren't dictated by the workers. They're dictated by management, by leadership, and they can change it anytime.”

“A union is a path to a contract.” 

“There's a rich history in labor law and in labor contracts around letting workers have a say in terms of how and when a technology can be used in the workplace.”

“There's always going to be a tension between what the business wants and what is maybe best for the people who work there.”

“I think you can have a union contract that does ultimately benefit the workers and in turn allows the company to remain competitive and allows them to have a workforce that they're investing in.”

Like it or not, AI is a growing part of our infrastructure—not just the infrastructure of our phones, our computers, and the internet—but that of our physical world. It’s increasingly  used to support the very fundamental systems that maintain our cities, hospitals, utilities, and educational systems. On some levels, this is cause for concern. After all, we’ve seen other implementations of AI (think riding-sharing services) that have not lived up to their promise but have instead aggravated some of the problems they sought to address.

Dan is a big-picture guy with an ability to draw principles from history and other sectors. He understands that utilizing AI is inevitable. The challenge is recognizing the interconnectedness of our various systems and working together to build infrastructures that truly create better life experiences for all.  

- The many facets of infrastructures

- How AI is currently being used and how it might be used in the future to support our infrastructures

- Why ride-sharing is not exactly an AI model worth repeating

- Why the Japanese and Finnish models work well in those environments but aren’t necessarily transferable to more diverse cultures

- Why quality of life will only improve with a more holistic, integrated design approach

0:37 - Introduction of Dan

3:49 - AI as infrastructure

8:30 - How AI might be used to further support infrastructure systems

12:09 - Will the impact of AI actually make life better? 

18:59 - Plug for Managing Priorities by Harry Max. Get 15% off!

20:15 - The metaphor of designing looking through a lens and technology’s impact on the material world

26:16 - Helpful models – the Japanese and Finnish cultures

31:52 - Dan’s gift to the audience

Dark Matter and Trojan Horses: A Strategic Design Vocabulary by Dan Hill https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Matter-Trojan-Horses-Vocabulary/dp/0992914639/ 

Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions by Harry Max https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/managing-priorities/ 

Designing with AI Conference, June 4-5 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/futures/ 

Smoke and Ashes: Opium’s Hidden Histories by Amitav Ghosh  https://www.amazon.com/Smoke-Ashes-Opiums-Hidden-Histories/dp/0374602921 

“Those [infrastructures] are fundamentally important, but they're also not the point. And that's a really  tricky framing for us because when they're not the point, they're easy to defund or undercut or not think too carefully about.”

“[AI] is going to be a core infrastructure driving things that we absolutely rely on, and as a result, we need to take it seriously and think about it as a public  shared infrastructure.”

“We have to be aware that those scales are all connected and that the decisions you take from an individual point of view, of course, matter in the city or the environment. I know this is the biggest challenge we have as a species. We're not very good at that, but that is precisely what we need to be looking at with AI now, because unless we've got a meaningful conversation happening between those disciplines at all those different scales,  we will take that Uber/Lyft problem and multiply it a thousand fold.”

Jodi distinguishes between "designing with AI" and "designing AI," arguing the importance of designers' involvement in the entire product development lifecycle. She highlights the challenges of AI innovation, such as data availability, value generation, customer adoption, and ethical considerations and emphasizes that designers have a place in all realms of AI development.

Jodi's interview offers a glimpse into the evolving landscape of AI-driven design and the pivotal role of designers in shaping its future. With a blend of historical context, personal anecdotes, and insights, she inspires designers of all stripes to embrace the challenges and opportunities presented by AI innovation.

• How Jodi went from a Master of Fine Arts degree to working on responsible AI at Carnegie Mellon
• Why designers are needed in all phases of AI development
• How careers morph as technologies develop and become obsolete
• Lessons from history and the “friendly vending machine”
• Why solving for “Drunk Island” problems is usually more helpful than chasing a loftier issue

0:25 - Introducing Jodi

2:59 - On boundaries around innovating with AI

6:40 – 4 reasons AI models fail

8:07 – The role of designers and the challenge of starting the design process from the middle of the double diamond

11:49 - The role of bridge builders

14:48 - The morphing of careers due to the emergence and prevalence of AI

17:19 - Commercial break - Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions by Harry Max

18:26 - AI as a design material

21:08 - Constraints and structure on AI as a design material

24:39 - Jodi’s gift for the audience

Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions by Harry Max https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/managing-priorities/ 

Designing with AI 2024, June 4-5 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/futures/ 

Friendly vending machines 

“When you think about innovation, you think about the development of the technology, which is typically done by technologists. But the innovation is where designers take it and make it into a viable desirable product.”

“Reflection in action is like the jazz player improvising and making new music, or the potter working with clay. And reflection on action is when we step back and critique what we've done and figure out what steps work.”

“There's a lots of opportunity for simple, robust AI to improve things that we need.”