Robert traces the growing privacy challenge from early internet tracking to today’s complex ecosystem of smartphones, online services, and AI systems. While many users understand that they’re trading data for convenience, few grasp how widely their information is distributed—or how easily supposedly anonymous data can be re-identified. As AI accelerates the ability to combine and analyze datasets, those risks are growing quickly.

Then the conversation turns to what designers can do about it. Robert outlines practical ways UX professionals can improve privacy outcomes, from collecting less data and avoiding deceptive patterns to improving language transparency and giving users meaningful control over their information. Despite the scale of the problem, Robert argues that designers have more agency and influence than they realize. Thoughtful design decisions can help protect users while also strengthening trust and long-term business success.

• Why privacy concerns have intensified with smartphones, AI, and online tracking
• How “anonymous” data can often be re-identified through data aggregation
• Why users have conflicting attitudes about personalization and data tracking
• The role UX designers can play in improving privacy protections
• How deceptive design patterns (including cookie banners) manipulate user consent
• Why clearer language and better privacy tools can give users meaningful control over their data

0:15 - Meet Robert, Lou’s neighbor

1:51 - How Robert got into the privacy field

5:06 - Perceptions of privacy and the concessions we make

8:01 - Terms of Service - we accept them blindly - and why that can be risky

15:54 - 5 Reasons to use the Rosenverse

18:39 - What designers can do about data privacy

28:08 - Privacy tools and potential tools for users

32:38 - Robert’s gift for listeners

Design for Privacy: Keeping Personal Information Private by Robert Stribley https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/design-for-privacy/

Block Party app https://www.blockpartyapp.com/

404 Media https://www.404media.co/

The Capture https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8201186/

“We have created these patterns that make it very easy to get involved with those experiences, all the while you're surrendering your data.” 

“I don't think most people understand the degree to which that information is spread around and with whom it's spread around.”

“Whenever you are utilizing people’s data, really think about what you’re doing with it and be able to justify it.” 

“When you understand deceptive patterns as manipulative, you can’t stop seeing them everywhere.” 

Jeff explains that most transformations fail because incentives still reward shipping outputs, not creating real value. Meaningful change tends to emerge only in pockets led by leaders willing to experiment and treat ways of working as something to test and evolve.

They also explore how AI is shifting risk upstream—from engineering to vision, validation, and decisionmaking—making design and research more critical than ever. Along the way, they reflect on consulting as organizational therapy, the need to prove design’s value in the AI era, and why companies that relentlessly embrace new technology are best positioned to endure.

• Why Agile, OKRs, and similar frameworks often fail to create real change
• The critical shift from measuring output to measuring outcomes
• The two traits shared by successful pockets of transformation in large companies
• How to run small, time-boxed experiments to change ways of working at scale
• Why AI makes design, research, and product thinking more valuable
• How to explain and prove the value of “thinking before the prompt” in AI-driven organizations

0:10 - Meet Jeff Gothelf; Lou and Jeff discuss bridging the gap between ritual and cultural change

7:44 - Good ideas without a clear understanding of why

9:42 - What it takes for organizations to successfully communicate and incentivize 

15:21 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

17:37 - Consultants validate insiders; AI shifts risk toward design clarity

24:20 - AI speeds output, but critical thinking, research, and testing prove designers’ value

27:50 - Jeff and Lou speculate on Amazon’s future

30:49 - Jeff’s gift for listeners

Books by Jeff Gothelf https://jeffgothelf.com/books/ 

Ignorance by Milan Kundura https://www.amazon.com/Ignorance-Novel-Milan-Kundera/dp/0060002107 

“The types of conversations that we're having about good design, about good information architecture, about good research, about agility and customer centricity and all of those types of things, for some reason, those continue to be difficult conversations in organizations today.”

“The risk of engineering is no longer a risk, not like it was not five years ago. It's going to get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. Where's the risk? The risk is in definition, vision, clarity, validation. In other words, it's in design, discovery, research, product management.”

“The differentiation, the uniqueness, the creativity, the innovation is going to come from the critical thinking of the designers and the researchers who are actually doing the thinking before the prompt.”

Jen challenges designers to go beyond the narrow scope of their titles or craft. Instead of trying to “convince” other industries of design’s value, she argues that designers must step outside their professional comfort zones, learn new languages—especially finance—and see themselves as co-conspirators in systemic change.

With today’s precarious job market and the erosion of traditional design roles, Jen offers a compelling vision for designers to build collective practices, join interdisciplinary communities, and find purpose in transforming complex systems like health, energy, and finance. Her advice to students and early-career professionals? Focus on a system that needs fixing and start connecting with others who care.

• Why a degree in comparative religion gave Jen an edge in global finance
• How working on Wall Street pushed her toward systems-level design work
• Why design can’t change the world without engaging with business
• The importance of shifting from a role-based professional identity to a personal design practice
• How to build a resilient career by focusing on systems, not job titles
• Why transdisciplinary design programs may offer a model for the future of education

0:15 - Meet Jen van der Meer 

3:17 - Escaping finance for design

7:35 - Why designers should learn finance

11:44 - The challenges of blurred roles and learning the language of your sector and practice

14:33 – Jen’s job advice for students

19:57 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

22:18 - Transdisciplinary design trends 

29:11 - Possibilities within Jen’s Parsons program

32:33 - The realities of higher education today and scaling the transdisciplinary model of education

36:12 - Jen’s gift for listeners

Parsons Studio https://www.newschool.edu/parsons/faculty/jen-van-der-meer/ 

Jen van der Meer’s website https://jenvandermeer.org 

Rosenverse https://rosenverse.rosenfeldmedia.com/ 

“Comparative religion is a fantastic entry point to navigating the world.”

“That’s what I’ve been working on for the last 10 years. How can I see finance as design territory?”

“We’re not here to convert people. We’re here to work together with other people to transform the systems that we’re in.” 

“I think design pedagogy, studio practice, surveys, all of it is the answer to university education.”

The discussion explores how tool vendors are evolving toward integrated platforms, why taxonomy and information architecture are even more essential in an AI-driven world, and how research operations professionals are becoming critical connectors across teams and technologies. Rather than replacing researchers, AI may free them to focus on identifying knowledge gaps and proactively generating insight. Kate ultimately offers an optimistic perspective: the future favors makers and experimenters—professionals willing to play, adapt, and help shape how AI is used responsibly within research practice.

• Why research workflows are shifting from linear processes to interconnected systems
• How AI is enabling “insights lakes” that make organizational knowledge searchable and reusable
• The growing importance of taxonomy, metadata, and information architecture in AI-driven research
• Why research ops roles become more critical—not less—in an AI future
• How research tool ecosystems may evolve into both integrated platforms and specialized stacks
• Why experimentation, play, and maker mindsets are key skills for researchers navigating rapid change

1:19 - Meet Kate Towsey

2:27 - About the UXR Tools Summit

3:56 - Participant recruitment is just one piece of research ops

9:01 - Research tooling shifting toward ecosystems, not single solutions

13:50 - Knowledge management evolves into AI-powered insights infrastructure

19:56 - 5 Reasons to use the Rosenverse

22:20 - AI sparks creative renewal for makers

28:13 - Kate’s gift for listeners

Kate Towsey’s website https://katetowsey.com/

Research That Scales by Kate Towsey https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/research-that-scales/

Cha-Cha Club https://chacha.club/

Research Ops Review https://www.theresearchopsreview.com/

UXR Tools Summit https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/program/#tab=day-3

A Work in Progress by René Redzepi https://www.amazon.com/Work-Progress-Journal-Ren%C3%A9-Redzepi/dp/0714877549

“Even with the power of AI, brilliance is going to be needed.” 

“People who are makers by nature are having a whale of a time. They’re seeing lots of space for opportunity, for building, for reinventing.”  

“It’s less about whether you’re a researcher or designer and more about whether you’re a maker and an experimenter.”

“There needs to be an element of play — making mistakes and building things that don’t work.”

Maria shares what it means to lead research at NN/g and how her experience as a UX researcher in the UK Home Office shaped her perspective on research maturity and real-world practice. They explore how research repositories help organizations surface knowledge, avoid duplicate work, and support collaboration—and why people and culture remain just as important as the tools. Maria also discusses how AI could make repositories more powerful by surfacing connections and insights.

• What the Director of Research role at Nielsen Norman Group involves
• How government UX work shaped Maria’s perspective on research maturity
• Why research repositories help organizations reuse and share knowledge
• Why research librarians and curators remain essential even with AI
• Where AI could improve research repositories in the future
• A book recommendation on qualitative research analysis

0:10 - Meet Maria Rosala and learn about the UXR Tool Summit

3:23 - What it’s like being the research director of Nielsen-Norman

7:58 - Gauging and comparing research quality

10:18 - How the volume of research at Nielsen Norman compares to the Home Office in the UK

15:54 - What’s special about the Rosenverse and the Rosenbot

18:10 - What research repositories do for organizations

22:08 - Why we need both tools and a culture that is curious and collaborative

27:07 - Thoughts on surfacing and utilizing AI in defined, constrained spaces but with a human architect

33:31 - Maria’s gift for listeners

The Coding Manual for Qualitative Researchers by Johnny Saldana https://www.amazon.com/Coding-Manual-Qualitative-Researchers-Third/dp/1473902495 

Advancing Research 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/ 

“Because we're very small, we do have a lot of oversight of the research that we're doing.”

“People would go through and critique the design and say, ‘Why have you designed it like that?’ And you would need to have a good reason.”

“It's about ensuring that research can be consumed by not just the immediate team that are doing it to inform some of the key decisions that they're trying to make, but that it could potentially benefit others who might be thinking about that problem in a slightly different lens.”

“I think people are going to continue to play an important role, regardless of AI implementations in curating and drawing connections.”

They discuss collapsing response rates driven by constant, low-value feedback requests and the growing sense that many surveys are performative rather than useful. Caroline argues for fewer, smaller, more targeted surveys that respect people’s time and actually lead to change. The conversation also tackles AI in research tools, from synthetic users to automated analysis, and why human judgment still matters.

Caroline shares the key questions she plans to ask survey-tool vendors—especially around accessibility and panel management—and why researchers need better integration across tools and methods. She closes with a literacy-focused resource from the British Council tied to her passion for designing for people with low literacy.

• Why survey response rates keep dropping—and how bad “always-on” feedback requests damage the whole method
• How to make surveys feel less performative: smaller, targeted surveys and “question of the week” approaches
• Why the best surveys are often the ones you never see (because they’re sent to the right small sample)
• Caroline’s take on AI in research tools, including the risks of synthetic users and AI-only analysis of open ends
• The top questions Caroline wants survey-tool vendors to answer, especially about accessibility for researchers and respondents; and panel management and integration
• Why tool integration across methods (surveys + repositories + testing + recruitment + experimentation) matters—and what researchers should push vendors on

0:13 – Meet Caroline and learn her role in the Advancing Research Conference

5:13 - Recent trends that have impacted how research should design and run surveys

8:15 - When surveys feel routine and performative

10:18 - Areas of improvement in uptake and responses 

13:58 - How AI is making a difference in designing surveys and analyzing data

18:55 - How vendors view the utilization of AI

23:58 - Why you need the Rosenverse

26:12 - Caroline’s questions for survey tool vendors

31:11 - Integration and triangulation

36:20 - Caroline’s gift for listeners

Forms That Work - by Caroline Jarrett and Jerry Gaffney https://www.amazon.com/Forms-that-Work-Interactive-Technologies/dp/1558607102

Surveys That Work - by Caroline Jarrett https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/surveys-that-work/

Advancing Research and the UXR Tools Summit - March 10-12, 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/

British Council’s LearnEnglish’s restaurant menu page https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/skills/reading/a1-reading/restaurant-menu

“This problem of being over-invited under usefulness of the survey experience is threatening the whole of survey research, and that trend has now started to affect national statistical agencies.”

“A really well-designed survey will go to the smallest sample that is appropriate for the effect that you're trying to achieve.”

“Do smaller surveys more often. Keep it small. Keep it frequent.” 

“If you’re selling to people, you’re going to have to actually engage with people.”

Yet out of the ashes, a new civic design seeds are taking root. Christian and Dana reflect on what it means to build systems that endure, how to design for accountability, and where the next generation of mission-driven designers, researchers, and creators might focus their efforts. There’s urgency here, but also a throughline of resolve and resilience: the belief that better government is possible—and that good people are still fighting for it.

• How design and research teams inside U.S. government agencies were dismantled under political pressure
• The tactics used to erase DEI and disability-facing efforts and language from federal operations
• Why civic tech and design teams need to plan for resilience—even under hostile leadership
• What it looks like to “exfiltrate” ethical infrastructure during a transition of power
• How former public servants are reshaping the civic tech ecosystem post–government
• Why designing for accountability matters as much as designing for access

0:34 - Meet Christian and Dana

1:41 - A year ago, Dana resigns head of customer experience for DHS

3:03 - Christian’s experience with 18F and his firing by TTS

8:09 - Why Dana resigned from her position with the federal government

11:46 - Considering the motives of the current administration

17:31 - Why running public services like a business is a bad idea

26:06 - Advancing Research - March 10-11, 2026

27:07 - Stewart Brand’s pace layer model theory

30:09 - The future of product design in the public sector

39:30 - Dana’s and Christian’s gifts for listeners

University of Global Health Equity in Rwanda https://ughe.org/ 

https://www.linkedin.com/school/ughe/ 

Girl Scouts USA https://www.girlscouts.org/

Order Girl Scout cookies from trans girl scouts https://open.substack.com/pub/erininthemorn/p/2026-trans-girl-scouts-to-order-cookies?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web 

Advancing Research - March 10-11, 2026  https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/ 

“ By firing us all at once, they inadvertently preserved our unity really well.”

“There was a shared belief that we could still have the shared goal of making stuff work better and put politics aside and make some actual advantages.”

“They thought..affirmative action..advantaged everybody except for white males. So nobody’s credentials are legitimate except white males. Everybody else has been boosted, and you have to discount them. It’s a bizarre thing that it’s the opposite of reality in many ways.”

“It was a data heist. They exfiltrated private government data – public data but private information. It was theft of the sovereign data of the United States.”

“I would argue that the government should not be run like a business. It is fundamentally a different thing.”

“Government exists because there are things that humans need that cannot be provided by the private sector.”

Chris also shares how over-reliance on AI tools can lead to "cognitive debt" and de-skilling — both for individuals and entire organizations. Drawing from philosophy, pop culture (yes, even Doctor Strange), and practical design methods, Chris offers a compelling case for why designers are crucial in shaping responsible AI, and how a well-designed assistant can help without dumbing us down. It’s a smart, witty, and insightful conversation that makes a strong case for the enduring relevance of design in an AI-driven world.

• The key distinction between assistant and agent technologies—and why it matters
• How everyday tools like predictive text shift between assistant and agent modes
• Why assistive AI is more widespread (and safer) than fully agentive systems—for now
• How designers can mitigate cognitive dependency and “de-skilling” in users
• The risks of organizational over-reliance on AI, especially without design input
• How pop culture (like Doctor Strange’s cloak) offers helpful metaphors for AI design

0:11 - Meet Chris Noessel

1:44 - Agentive vs assistive (assistant)

8:36 - Real-world examples of technology assistants

11:55 - Agents and assistants in publishing

15:44 - Break: Advancing Research - March 10-11, 2026

17:10 - The risks of dependence and de-skilling 

20:43 - Studies on the effects of ChatGPT on the brain

21:57 - Over-reliance at scale

23:34 - How designers can prepare to navigate the AI maze

26:46 - On writing and publishing on AI

33:13 - Chris’ gift for listeners

Designing Agentive Technology: AI that Works for People by Chris Noessel https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/designing-agentive-technology/

Designing Assistant Technology: AI that Makes Us Smarter by Chris Noessel https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/designing-assistant-technology/

Chris’ sci-fi blog https://scifiinterfaces.com/

Your Brain on ChatGPT https://www.media.mit.edu/projects/your-brain-on-chatgpt/overview/

Cloak of Levitation  https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Cloak_of_Levitation

Doctor Strange  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1211837/?ref_=fn_t_1

“An assistant helps a user do something. An agent does that thing for them.”

“Whenever you have an assistant that helps you do something, there runs a risk of dependence.”

“When we talk about stupidity, we’re really talking about over-reliance and dependence and evn de-skilling.” 

“Dependence and over-reliance is a major risk when any assistant, but AI makes it more significant and troubling.” 

Rather than treating craft as polish or perfection, Uday argues for looking inward—at the emotional, personal, pragmatic, and even spiritual layers that influence a designer’s work. He and Lou discuss how these hidden layers shape our taste, decisions, and impact, especially in an era where AI is transforming the practice of design. Uday makes the case for self-awareness and reflection as a way to strengthen both individual designers and teams, and hints at how his “anti-craft” framework might become a new tool for mapping the human side of design alongside its technical layers.

• Why Uday Gajendar is rethinking “craft” through his concept of anti-craft
• How design is shaped by personal, emotional, and spiritual layers
• Why self-awareness and lived experience matter more in the age of AI
• How teams can support designers beyond the work itself
• A fresh way to evaluate both product and team growth

0:30 - Meet Uday

2:07 - Uday, craft, and anti-craft

6:23 - The personal layers and dimensions that impact both the craft and the crafter 

11:07 - The spiritual aspect of design

16:31 - Break: Why you need the Rosenverse

18:51 - How to connect the layers back to technology

24:53 - Layers in light of the Pace Layers Model

28:00 - Uday’s gift for listeners

Stewart Brand’s pace layering model https://longnow.org/talks/02015-brand-saffo/ 

The Way Forward by Yung Pueblo https://www.amazon.com/Way-Forward-Yung-Pueblo/dp/1524874833

“Design, for me, is a personal path of self-discovery, of meaning, of value, of impact.”

“For a lot of designers, we create something that is a manifestation of what we believe in because we believe in something of such quality, of such craft, of such character.”

Lavrans and Andy join Lou in today’s episode, and they acknowledge that their original work, while groundbreaking, often painted a slightly utopian picture of design practice. This edition brings a more grounded perspective, reflecting the messy realities of organizational politics, cross-functional collaboration, and measuring the value of design. Tools like service blueprints have been sharpened, not just described—making it easier for designers to move from abstract ideas to tangible outcomes.

And for experienced professionals? You’ll find new material that helps you advocate for service design more effectively within complex organizations, alongside updated thinking on ROI, team structures, and evolving roles in product-led environments. It’s not just a book—it’s a toolkit for navigating what’s next.

• How service design is evolving within product-led organizations
• Why public sector services are still the natural setting for “pure” service design
• The shifting relationship between product and service design
• Ways service designers can navigate organizational politics
• How experience design has become more visual and actionable
• What’s changed between the first and second editions—and why it matters

0:12 - Meet Lavrans and Andy

0:48 - The reason for writing a second edition of Service Design

4:41 - What’s new and what remained in the new edition

7:51 - The case studies and new chapters in the new edition

10:16 - Service design’s relationship with organizational change and politics

13:13 - Experience the Rosenverse

14:41 - When service design meets product thinking

21:42 - Service design’s strength in public and product sectors

23:47 - Cutting the fluff: visualizing experience design

25:12 - Why the second edition still matters

28:41 - Andy and Lavrans’ gifts for listeners

Diffusion Innovation by Everett Rogers https://www.goodreads.com/work/editions/129867-diffusion-of-innovations 

The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More by Jefferson Fisher https://www.amazon.com/Next-Conversation-Argue-Less-Talk/dp/0593718720 

We Need to Talk by Joshua Graves https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/we-need-to-talk-a-survival-guide-for-tough-conversations/ 

Service Design: From Insight to Implementation by Lavrans Løvlie, Andy Polaine, and Ben Reason https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/service-design-second-edition/ 

9th Design Ops Summit, September 10-11, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/ 

“Services happen over time.” 

“Services are intangible.” 

“Service design involves people aligning around a common way of thinking about things. So a lot of service design is organization change.”

frog North America's Head of Service Design, Bethany Brown, joins Lou to explore the intersection of service design, operations, and AI. With roots in industrial design and global experience across firms like EPA and Engine, Bethany brings a unique lens to tackling large-scale organizational friction.

She walks us through a real-world case study from her upcoming talk at the Advancing Service Design conference (November 19-20), where her team used service design principles to help a company identify costly operational breakdowns, before applying AI to streamline processes and improve financial outcomes. Instead of leading with technology, Bethany’s approach centers on deeply understanding human workflows, mapping them visually, and uncovering where systems are failing frontline workers.

Through this lens, “operations” becomes less about rigid systems and more about the connective tissue of a service experience. And service design becomes the glue that aligns people, technology, and strategy. It’s a talk—and a conversation—not to miss.

Plus, Bethany shares the best career advice she ever received, and pays tribute to the educator who helped her realize design is an ever-evolving discipline, not a fixed path.

• How service design uncovers human inefficiencies AI can help solve
• Why visualizing messy, manual workflows unlocks operational clarity
• The role of empathy in reimagining frontline service delivery
• How to bridge AI strategy and real business needs through co-creation
• Why Bethany sees operations as the engine behind customer experience
• How an industrial design background shaped her systems thinking approach

0:00 - Meet Bethany and learn her career arc

3:33 - Bethany’s ah-ha moment about service design

6:15 - Shifting from physical design to strategic, zoomed‑out service work

9:53 - “The beauty of service design is that it doesn't live alone. It never works by itself. It's always in partnership.” 

13:13 - Why you should try the Rosenverse

15:27 - Visualizing messy operations to identify where AI helps

19:56 - Bridging operations and AI through service design clarity

28:41 - Bethany’s gift for listeners

Advancing Service Design Conference (virtual) - November 19-20, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

“Let’s not just design the bike. Or let’s not just design the chair. Let’s think about everything around that. And I got excited about evertyhign around it.” 

“ Service design is so much more about the process, and the value of it is  a lot of decision making that happens in the process of service design, like ambiguous decisions that you didn't know even needed to be made.” 

“You get to use a lot of design thinking and design process to drive to highly strategic decisions to be made.”

“ The most important part of service designing anything in an ambiguous space is making it visible and visualizing the complexity.”

Gustavo shares how his early work in franchising sparked a fascination with aligning brand strategy, operations, and customer experience, eventually leading him to service design as a more holistic lens. Shreya’s journey began with product design in hospitals, where she realized the real challenge wasn’t just designing a better object—it was improving the entire system around it.

Together, they reflect on the emerging trends in the field, including the move toward systems-level thinking, new contexts like journalism and B2B, and the rich global collaboration shaping this year’s conference. The conversation is full of thoughtful insight, heartfelt reflection, and a few unexpected gifts—from Ken Wilber to Picasso.

• How two service designers from very different backgrounds each found their way into the field
• Why service design thrives in complex, multi‑stakeholder environments like healthcare, franchising, and journalism
• The emerging shift from focusing on “journeys” to understanding entire service ecosystems
• How global collaboration and peer learning are shaping this year's Advancing Service Design conference
• New ways to think about performance in services—beyond KPIs and toward learning, adaptability, and shared meaning
• The value of evolving one’s craft: moving from precision and “doing it right” to embracing abstraction, ambiguity, and creative confidence

0:12 - Meet Shreya and Gustavo

1:31 - Gustavo’s path into Service Design, which includes retail and franchise

7:30 - Shreya’s path into Service Design, which includes hand sanitizer and medical research

13:09 - Finding the magic of service design in unexpected fields 

17:46 - Check out the Rosenverse

19:11 - Shreya’s perspective on the upcoming conference

23:27 - Gustavo’s perspective on the same conference

25:21 - Hear the smiles

27:28 - Shreya’s and Gustavo’s gifts for listeners

Advancing Service Design 2025 - November 19-20 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

Ken Wilber’s books https://www.amazon.com/stores/Ken-Wilber/author/B0FKHPT8WN?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8053455d-fb3f-46a6-bd1d-a7b16cf04b04  

“The top of spirituality is service. You’re being spiritual when you’re serving.” 

“We build together and co-create, and the cases evolve through time.”

“ As you go, you become more experienced and work with different contexts, environments, and your practice grows and morphs into something else. Your comfortableness with ambiguity and being able to work with uncertainty and with abstract concepts and not knowing everything, I think you become more and more comfortable with that.”

In this episode, Jen and Lou preview her upcoming talk at Advancing Service Design 2025 and unpack why learning—not certainty—should be the North Star of design practice. She shares how service designers can operate more effectively by zooming out to see systems-level patterns and zooming back in to take practical action. From breaking down spatial and temporal complexity to explaining how constraints inhibit organizational learning, Jen reframes service design as an adaptive, constantly evolving practice. Whether you're a seasoned designer or simply service-design curious, this episode will stretch your thinking about what service design is—and what it can become.

• How service designers can apply complexity science and systems thinking to their everyday work
• Why adaptive organizations need learning-focused design approaches, not rigid frameworks
• The difference between spatial and temporal complexity—and how each affects your design choices
• How to recognize and remove the constraints that prevent organizational learning and change
• What Jen learned by transitioning from physics to design, and how that background still shapes her work
• Why service design is evolving beyond traditional boundaries—and what it takes to practice it effectively today

0:19 - Meet Jen and learn how a grocery-store encounter changed the course of her career

6:35 - Jen decided to pursue a Masters in Design at Carnegie Mellon 

12:14 - 5 Reasons you should be using the Rosenverse

14:54 - Jen’s talk at Advancing Service Design, “Learning is the North Star: Service Design for Adaptive Capacity,” inspires us to zoom in and out 

18:17 - Navigating time and space

23:54 - The role of systems thinking

26:44 - Adaptive capacity and learning

33:59 - Jen’s gift for the audience

Advancing Service Design virtual conference - November 19-20, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 

Oblique Strategies The book: https://www.amazon.com/Oblique-strategies-hundred-worthwhile-dilemmas/dp/B0000EEZG9 

The physical cards: https://enoshop.co.uk/products/oblique-strategies?variant=51221629501780

An online generator: https://stoney.sb.org/eno/oblique.html

More info from WIkipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies

“Dick Buchanan is my cult of choice when it comes to how I orient myself to thinking about the practice of design.”

“Good teachers are all good designers.” 

“Get in the habit of asking ‘what’s happening?’ a little earlier.” 

“Get good at not needing to predict the future because you can adapt so effectively.”

“Imagine or anticipate what are a few steps further - second, third, fourth order consequences of things.” 

“Expand a little earlier and a little later in your timeline and see what that uncovers. Do the same thing with your spatial maps.”

If you’ve ever wondered how to build design credibility in a skeptical organization, how to scale expert mentorship without burning out your top people, or how AI might actually amplify—not replace—human wisdom, this episode is for you.

• Why centralized design teams matter
• How to evaluate whether a company is truly design-ready
• Why bridging business and design doesn't require an MBA
• The power of organizational literacy in design
• What to expect post-acquisition when integrating agencies into corporations
• How democratization of design tools isn’t a threat—but an opportunity
• What Scott is building with his new company, Tmpt.me
• The subtle importance of provenance and weighting in expert AI agents

0:00 - Meet Scott, a combination designer and business guy

4:26 - The surprising ingredient for effective communication across divisions

7:08 - The markers of an empathetic, effective workplace 

12:07 - The 9th DesignOps Summit 

13:15 - Centralizing design and research teams can reshapes culture and careers

19:01 - How to balance centralization with design democratization

24:18 - The AI project Scott is working on now

31:10 - How Tmpt.me handles citations and source weighting

34:19 - Scott’s gift for listeners

Tmpt.me https://www.tmpt.me/ 

Ideaflow: The Only Business Metric that Matters by Jeremy Utley and Perry Klebahn https://www.jeremyutley.design/ideaflow

“Centralizing...makes all the difference in the world.”

“ Interdisciplinary teams are the winning teams. But if each of those disciplines has their own org, then that org can nurture and produce the strongest players in that discipline.”

“The more a design organization can teach engineering, product, business their design method, the more those other teams will ask for designers to represent that method rather than themselves moonlighting it.”

Catt shares insights from her forthcoming Rosenfeld book, Staff Designer: Grow, Influence, and Lead as an Individual Contributor, where she draws on her own experience at companies like Etsy, Asana, and Dropbox—alongside interviews with nearly 30 other design pros—to clarify a path that’s increasingly relevant in today’s flattened organizations.

Catt explains why staff designers thrive at the intersection of strategy and execution, influence and diplomacy. Staff design isn’t about hierarchy; it’s about navigating complexity, guiding quality, and mentoring others, all without direct reports. Whether you're a senior designer wondering what’s next or a leader trying to support IC career growth, this episode reframes design leadership for the modern era.

• What defines a staff designer and how the role differs from senior design or management
• Why diplomacy, influence, and communication are core to the job
• How the staff designer role supports cross-functional strategy without direct reports
• Ways the role enables mentorship and growth for other ICs
• Why this path is increasingly relevant in today’s flattened design organizations
• How Catt’s book offers actionable tools, illustrations, and exercises for growing in the role

0:10 - Meet Catt and hear why she wrote a book

2:45 - Catt’s path from senior designer to staff designer to author

4:21 - Senior designer vs staff designer

6:46 - Staff designer as diplomat

13:33 - The 9th DesignOps Summit – September 10-11, 2025

14:32 - The tricky dynamic of guiding without managing

19:20 - Rethinking design roles for 2025

24:27 - Catt’s gift for listeners

Staff.design https://staff.design/

The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Klemp https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable-ebook/dp/B00R3MHWUE 

Staff Designer: Grow, Influence, and Lead as an Individual Contributor by Catt Small https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/the-staff-designer/ 

“A staff designer is everything that a senior designer is, but more.” 

“When you’re a staff designer, you are essentially unstucking the entire team.” 

“There’s a lot of growth that senior designers usually experience when they get to work directly with staff designers.”  

“It’s interesting because you’re trying to figure out how to be a peer but also lead people.”

“You are essentially designing how you want to show up.”

In his conversation with Lou, Nathan reflects on over a decade of working with Rosenfeld conference presenters—researchers, design leaders, ops people, and more—as they prepare to step into the spotlight. He shares how effective communication isn’t just about slides or scripts, but about presence, intention, and treating your talk like a gift to the audience. Whether coaching polished speakers or total newcomers, Nathan’s approach is rooted in empathy, trust, and helping people show up as their most authentic selves.

From embracing improv to ditching the word-for-word script, Nathan’s advice speaks to anyone who wants to connect more meaningfully—on stage, in a meeting, or behind the camera. This episode is packed with insight for designers, leaders, and communicators of all stripes.

• Why designers often underestimate how different public speaking is from day-to-day communication
• What makes high-level speakers still want coaching—and what they get out of it
• A technique Nathan uses to help speakers ditch their scripts (without losing their message)
• How to build audience trust, even when presenting remotely
• The secret value of improv training in high-stakes presentations
• What makes a talk “nourishing” instead of just noise
• How to translate complex design ideas into compelling, human-centered storytelling

0:10 - Meet Nathan

2:26 - Nathan’s path from impromptu teacher to the go-to demo guy to communications coach

7:51 - Are some speakers “naturals”?

10:28 - Nathan’s secret: his meeting with an improv facilitator

12:07 - Toastmasters vs improv

15:04 - Why you need the Rosenverse 

17:20 - Guiding design leaders from nervous to natural onstage

24:37 - When your presentation is virtual and you can’t see your audience

28:41 - Slides or no slides? And outlining vs mind mapping

33:23 - The power of storytelling and focusing on the audience 

36:09 - Nathan’s gift for listeners

The Moth https://themoth.org/listen 

 ”The ‘uh’ is really good and a needed tool when you're in a big debate with a group of people around the table. So there is a good use for it. But not when you are holding the microphone and nobody can take the floor away from you.” 

“ If you want to improve your skills, whether it's a formal presentation or just a peer presentation, or like we're doing here – we're just having a conversation – go to improv.”

“A hook is a great way to start, but it’s not the only time you want to get them involved.”

“Think of what you’re doing here as not just a bunch of words and slides, but as a gift to the audience. This is a gift you are giving people so that they can go home and become the heroes in their situation.”

“Just tweaking some of what they say, making it more about the audience, makes their value much higher.”

As systems fracture and new patterns emerge, Ops leaders are stepping into roles that feel more like architects than managers—shaping the blueprint for how design and engineering build together in real time.

One of those leaders is Aletheia DeLivre, Senior Program Manager of Design Engineering Collaboration & Strategy at Microsoft, and a featured speaker at the upcoming DesignOps Summit. In this conversation, she and Lou unpack how AI is disrupting workflows, accelerating timelines, and reshaping power dynamics between disciplines.

• Why traditional workflows are breaking—and what might take their place
• How conversational UI and AI prototyping shift the meaning of "done"
• Why design–dev collaboration could become more co-creative than ever
• How to rethink “quality” in a world where speed often wins
• Why ops professionals are moving from managers to architects and guides
• The emotional burden ops leaders carry as they steer teams into the unknown

0:12 - Introduction of Aletheia and non-linear journey

4:27 - AI forces design ops to reimagine itself

6:50 - AI is rewiring design-dev collaboration

9:23 - AI delivers speed, humans deliver craft

13:51 - The ninth virtual Design Ops Summit - September 10-11

15:35 - Design Ops as system architecture and conduction

19:10 - Design Ops as ethical pathfinders

25:11 - Aletheia’s gift for listeners

The Design Conductors by Rachel Posman and John Calhoun https://www.thedesignconductors.com/ 

The Worlds I See: Curiosity, Exploration, and Discovery at the Dawn of AI by Fei-Fei Li https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-See-Curiosity-Exploration-Discovery-ebook/dp/B0BPQSLVL6 

Design Ops Summit - September 10-11, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/ 

“There’s a quality-time ratio. I think this is where humans still have an edge – the refinement of the craft.” 

“AI is great to get us from idea to prototype, but we still see a lot of gaps.” 

“Once you refine it into production-level code, I think that’s where there’s still something missing in terms of  the level of craft, the adherence to your principles, your design system componentry, and pattern reusage.”

“We are both the conductors and the architects.” 

“ The power and potential of AI is so high that it behooves us as humanity to develop AI in a way that doesn't replace humans but enhances them.” 

Doug shares hard-earned lessons from IBM’s ambitious and trailblazing design transformation from the mid-twenty-teens: how centralization jump-started progress, why decentralization required careful timing, and what metrics ultimately proved design’s business value. Along the way, he offers thoughtful advice for today’s design leaders and ops pros who are navigating evolving roles and growing complexity.

Whether you’re leading a design team or supporting one behind the scenes, Doug’s insights are a must-hear for anyone shaping the future of design operations.

• How IBM went from zero to thousands of designers, and why centralization was the critical first step
• The risks of decentralizing too soon and how IBM managed the shift through a hybrid model
• Why community and culture matter in onboarding, especially for early-career designers
• The metrics that matter most in design ops, including alignment, velocity, risk mitigation, and ROI
• How to assess organizational conditions before choosing metrics and why a one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t work
• Framing questions for design leaders to ask themselves to better align investments in ops with the maturity of their teams

0:15 - Meet Doug Powell

5:23 - Reflections on IBM

7:40 - Lessons from scaling design at IBM

11:50 - Timing design org transitions

19:20 - Lessons from early chaos

22:10 - Design Ops Summit 2025

23:05 - Metrics that matter most

27:57 - Tailoring metrics to context

30:36 - Diagnose before you measure

33:08 - Doug’s gift for listeners

“DesignOps: Start with the Right Questions” by Doug Powell

https://dougpowelldesignleadership.substack.com/p/designops-start-with-the-right-questions 

A Different Kind of Power by Jacinda Ardem https://www.amazon.com/Different-Kind-Power-Memoir/dp/0593728696 

“ In order for this to thrive, the business needs to take ownership of and responsibility for the designers, their headcount, and also their output.”

“ I don't think I fully appreciated how important that bond, that connection, that cultural energy would be until we got into this program by a couple of years.”

“ They're really committed to this company and this culture that we've built at a level that I frankly didn't expect.”

“ There are a dozen or more different diagnostic questions that we should be asking to determine what are the right set of metrics that we should be applying.”

The conversation ranges from the power of cross-functional collaboration to the benefits UX skills bring to game development to the monetization models shaping today’s games. Cheryl reflects on the challenges facing the industry—massive layoffs, misaligned incentives, and a lack of shared understanding—and how a more human-centered, sustainable approach could be a game changer. Whether you're a UX professional, game developer, or just curious about what makes great video games tick, this episode offers a sharp, wide-angle view of where the field is headed.

• Why traditional UX skills transfer powerfully to game development
• The critical role of onboarding, perception, and player motivation in game design
• How communication breakdowns across teams and publishers derail game success
• Why so many modern games fail—not because of content, but because of friction in experience design
• What it means for a video game to be “sustainable” in an era of microtransactions and live service models
• How self-expression and community drive the economics of successful games
• Why studios must embrace authenticity and player feedback—especially in an AI-driven future
• What makes Cheryl’s favorite indie game, Blue Prince, a model of sustainable design

0:14 - Meet Cheryl

4:00 - The intersection of UX and game development

9:12 - Communicating design value to non-designers

13:17 - What sets top game studios apart: vision, community, and embracing ambiguity

17:01 - How UX helps games stand out in crowded genres

21:38 - 5 Reasons you need the Rosenverse

24:01 - What sustainability really means in live-service games

30:54 - Cheryl’s gift for the audience

The Game Development Strategy Guide by Cheryl Platz https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/game-development-strategy-guide/ 

Blue Prince https://www.blueprincegame.com/ 

“This book is about us trying to define the industry we want to see because the industry we have is no longer working.”

“Capitalism isn’t engineered to like hard things.” 

“ Players want that authenticity. They want to know that they're supporting actual creators and not just something that was randomly generated by AI.” 

“I cannot overstate how important self-expression is in live service games.”

Passcode: n5VOS0+Q

Design operations isn’t just about process—it’s about shaping better products, teams, and organizations from the inside out. José Coronado joins Lou to unpack why DesignOps deserves to be treated as a true design discipline. Drawing on his experience leading global teams at JPMorgan Chase, Target, and beyond, José shares strategies for embedding operational roles into business units, measuring impact, and scaling design without sacrificing quality.

They explore how enterprise UX has evolved since the iPhone, why service design is the right lens for thinking about internal operations, and what it takes to foster effective cross-functional collaboration. The conversation offers a preview of José’s upcoming panel at the 2025 DesignOps Summit—and plenty of practical insights for DesignOps professionals at any stage of their journey.

• Why José believes DesignOps is design, not just a support role
• How the consumerization of enterprise software changed the game for UX
• What enterprise UX offers that consumer design doesn’t—and why it matters
• How DesignOps leaders can show impact and justify investment
• The role of service design thinking in shaping scalable internal operations
• Key cross-functional challenges when integrating DesignOps, ResearchOps, ContentOps, and ProductOps
• A practical framework for professional development across design teams
• The two main barriers holding back DesignOps pros—and how to overcome them
• Why aligning ops roles with business units (vs. management buckets) can make all the difference
• Resources and thought leaders to follow for career growth in design

0:10 - Meet Jose 

1:51 - From physical design to digital discovery

3:29 - The complexity (and opportunity) of enterprise UX

7:44 - Why DesignOps IS design

9:16 - Why service design is a good lens for DesignOps

11:57 - The many paths into DesignOps—and who it’s really for

15:37 - Can DesignOps shed its cost center label?

18:04 - The ninth Design Ops Summit – September 10-11, 2025

19:15 - All the Ops: specialization vs. integration

23:49 - Elevating horizontal practices and professional development

28:42 - What holds DesignOps back?

31:18 - Jose’s gift for listeners

Design Ops Summit - September 10-11, 2025 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/

Tom Scott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomscottt/

Silke Bochat: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bochat/

Lena Kull: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lena-kul/

“If you can be successful in a complex environment like financial services, a top 10 bank in the world, you can basically take your skills anywhere to any problem.” 

“Design operations is design, full stop.”

“Design operations enables the organization to increase the impact or the efficiency of the processes and the products and services that we put out in the marketplace.”