Most leaders say they value personal development, but how many can identify a leadership behavior they are actively changing?

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore why leadership development often stops at insight. Reading books, listening to podcasts, completing assessments, and recognizing personal tendencies can increase self-awareness, but none of those activities necessarily produce behavior change.

For managers, leadership growth becomes meaningful when it gets specific. When does an unhelpful tendency appear? What visible action follows? How does that behavior affect other people? What small action could produce a different result?

Josh introduces the Know Yourself to Lead Yourself framework, a practical cycle connecting tendency, pattern, action, consequence, and reality.

Using his own defensiveness as an example, Josh demonstrates how a familiar leadership tendency can produce two very different outcomes. When challenged, he can become reactive, overexplain, or ask questions designed to defend his position. Alternatively, he can pause, express genuine gratitude, and ask questions intended to understand the other person.

The goal is not to erase personality or eliminate every natural tendency. It is to recognize when a tendency becomes visible through behavior and then practice a healthier response. Over time, small behavioral changes can create stronger relationships, more honest feedback, and a team environment where productive disagreement becomes possible.

Josh and John also discuss what managers must do to support employee development. Telling people to “develop themselves” is insufficient. Managers need to model personal growth, help employees identify behavioral patterns, provide specific feedback, and create accountability for practicing new actions.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Self-awareness is only the beginning. Knowing your tendencies does not create meaningful leadership development unless your behavior changes.

Personality is difficult to change, but behavior is more malleable. Leaders can retain their natural tendencies while choosing healthier actions.

Development must become specific. Broad goals such as “handle conflict better” should identify when the problem occurs, what behavior becomes visible, and what alternative action to practice.

Your actions create consequences that shape your environment. Defensive leadership can teach people to withhold feedback, defer too quickly, or remain at the surface.

Small interventions can interrupt established patterns. A deliberate pause, expression of gratitude, or uncontaminated question can change the direction of a difficult conversation.

Managers cannot outsource development entirely to employees. Leaders must model growth and help people translate feedback into observable behavioral goals.

Insight without practice becomes another form of avoidance. Podcasts, books, coaching, and assessments become useful only when leaders apply what they learn.

Sustainable growth is incremental. Leadership behavior changes through repeated practice, particularly in lower-stakes situations before pressure increases.

TIMESTAMPED CHAPTERS

00:00 – Welcome and the Discomfort of Challenge

01:19 – When Protecting People From Discomfort Goes Too Far

07:30 – Why Personal Development Often Stops at Insight

09:37 – Leaders Who Talk About Growth but Don’t Practice It

12:50 – How Managers Help Other People Develop Themselves

15:34 – Turning Broad Development Goals Into Visible Behaviors

17:28 – The Will Gap, Skill Gap, and Familiarity Problem

20:17 – Introducing the Know Yourself to Lead Yourself Framework

20:43 – Tendency and Pattern: Recognizing When Defensiveness Appears

22:39 – Action, Consequence, and the Reality Leaders Create

25:54 – Choosing a Healthier Action Under Pressure

27:00 – How Gratitude Interrupts a Defensive Reaction

31:12 – Creating More Honest Feedback and Stronger Relationships

33:40 – How a New Reality Can Reduce Reactive Tendencies

34:28 – Why the Goal Is Not to Eliminate Your Personality

35:55 – Naming Behavioral Strengths and Challenges

40:47 – Moving From Leadership Content to Leadership Practice

42:57 – Listener Homework: Identify One Tiny Behavioral Change

LISTENER HOMEWORK

Choose one leadership tendency you recognize in yourself.

When does it typically appear, and what do you visibly say or do?

Notice how other people respond and what kind of environment your behavior creates.

Then identify one small, observable action to practice instead. It might be pausing, expressing gratitude, asking a genuine question, or remaining engaged when you want to withdraw.

Share your goal with someone you trust:

“When this situation occurs, I tend to ____. I am practicing ____ instead. Will you help me notice how I’m doing?”

RESOURCES REFERENCED

Know Yourself to Lead Yourself framework — episode resource to be added

Behavioral Essentials — Behavior Scales Basic Definitions

University of Michigan’s first-year pass/fail policy 

Former Rocket Mortgage Graham Skidmore joins Josh and John to discuss burnout after professional success, the difference between coaching and advising, and how leaders can use AI to expand human capability rather than diminish it.

Graham shares the deeply personal story of reaching the height of professional success while simultaneously experiencing burnout, loss of identity, and growing dissatisfaction. That experience ultimately led him away from corporate leadership and toward a mission centered on human flourishing, spirituality, health, and the responsible use of artificial intelligence.

Together, the conversation explores how leaders can move beyond managing people as resources and instead create organizations that develop human potential. They discuss why individualized leadership matters, how coaching differs from advising, the role spirituality plays in leadership maturity, and why Graham believes AI should expand, not replace, human agency.

Rather than viewing AI as humanity's competitor, Graham argues that leaders have an opportunity to use technology to remove routine work while freeing people to think more creatively, solve more meaningful problems, and contribute from their unique strengths. Throughout the conversation, Josh, John, and Graham challenge leaders to shift from optimizing systems alone to investing more intentionally in the growth of the people those systems exist to serve.

• Professional success does not always lead to personal fulfillment. Sometimes burnout becomes the catalyst for discovering a more authentic way to lead.
• Coaching develops people differently than advising. Advising teaches someone what to know; coaching helps people better understand themselves.
• Healthy leadership begins with accepting that people are fundamentally different, not problems to standardize.
• AI should be used to augment human capability, not diminish human agency or critical thinking.
• Organizations create better long-term outcomes when they invest in developing people rather than simply optimizing processes.
• Leaders create stronger organizations when they move from having all the answers to creating environments where collective wisdom can emerge.

00:00 – Introducing Graham Skidmore 08:15 – Success, Burnout, and Leaving Corporate Leadership 17:45 – Coaching, Individuality, and Leadership Development 21:30 – Spirituality, Authenticity, and Leading Others 32:00 – AI, Human Agency, and the Future of Work 53:00 – Staying Grounded Through Uncertainty 01:00:30 – Practical Advice for Leaders

Consider this question:

Are you spending more time helping people fit your system - or helping them discover how they uniquely contribute to it?

As you reflect on your own leadership:

• Where are you relying primarily on advising instead of coaching?
• How well do you understand the unique strengths of the people you lead?
• In what ways could AI create more space for human creativity instead of replacing human thinking?

Finally, ask yourself Graham's central question:

Am I building systems that optimize people - or systems that help people become more fully themselves?

• Harmony Health Institute
• Graham Skidmore on LinkedIn

Josh and John argue that while communication is often blamed for organizational dysfunction, it is rarely the root issue. Instead, "communication" has become an easy, socially acceptable diagnosis that is broad enough for everyone to agree with while remaining vague enough that no one has to take ownership.

The conversation explores what leaders should do instead. Rather than immediately solving for better meetings, better emails, or better systems, they encourage leaders to become curious. What does someone actually mean when they say communication is broken? Are they feeling unheard? Is decision-making unclear? Are roles poorly defined? Is there a lack of psychological safety? Or are deeper issues of maturity, ownership, learning, or organizational systems actually driving the frustration?

Throughout the episode, Josh and John unpack several underlying causes that frequently hide behind complaints about communication, offering practical questions leaders can use to diagnose the real issue instead of treating symptoms. The discussion ultimately reframes communication as less of a messaging problem and more of a leadership challenge involving self-awareness, clarity, trust, accountability, and organizational design.

"Communication" is often an incomplete diagnosis. While communication problems certainly exist, leaders should resist accepting the phrase at face value and instead ask what people specifically mean.

Curiosity beats assumptions. The best leaders resist jumping immediately to solutions and instead ask thoughtful questions that uncover the underlying issue.

Many communication challenges are actually behavioral challenges. Self-awareness, maturity, ownership, learning, psychological safety, and role clarity often have a greater impact than simply improving information flow.

Systems matter—but they aren't the starting point. Meetings, processes, and communication tools are important, but they cannot solve problems rooted in culture, mindset, or relationships.

Great communicators take responsibility for both transmission and reception. Communication is not simply sending information—it requires shared responsibility for understanding.

00:00 – Summer Stories and Season Three Check-In 05:05 – Why "Communication Problems" Are Everywhere 09:45 – What People Really Mean When They Say Communication Is Broken 16:10 – Self-Awareness and Ownership in Communication 25:45 – Role Clarity and Decision Rights 31:00 – Psychological Safety, Learning, and Growth Mindsets 42:10 – When Communication Really Is a Systems Problem 47:30 – Asking Better Questions as a Leader

The next time someone tells you, "Communication is the problem," resist the urge to solve it immediately.

Instead, ask:

"What do you mean by that?"

Keep asking questions until you move beyond the label and uncover the real issue.

As you listen, pay attention to whether the conversation points toward self-awareness, role clarity, decision-making, psychological safety, learning, systems, or something else entirely.

Finally, challenge yourself with Josh's reminder:

Ask questions you don't want the answers to. Those are often the questions that lead to the greatest leadership growth.

The PIQ Perspective — Josh Hugo (The PIQ Perspective)

While servant leadership has become a guiding philosophy for organizations across education, nonprofits, healthcare, faith communities, and business, Josh and John challenge listeners to look beneath the language and examine the behaviors it can unintentionally produce. The conversation isn't about abandoning servant leadership, but about asking a more important question: What does healthy, mature servant leadership actually look like?

Drawing from Robert Greenleaf's original philosophy, the hosts explore how servant leadership was intended to prioritize the growth and development of others. However, they argue that without self-awareness, leaders can unintentionally drift into unhealthy patterns that leave both themselves and their teams worse off.

The discussion introduces three common archetypes that can emerge beneath the banner of servant leadership: the heroic controller who takes on too much, the overly empathetic absorber who carries responsibilities that belong to others, and the deferential decision-maker who avoids making difficult leadership decisions. While each posture stems from good intentions, each ultimately undermines the growth, responsibility, and agency of the very people leaders hope to serve.

Throughout the episode, Josh and John challenge listeners to move beyond simply identifying as servant leaders and instead define what that identity actually means in practice. Ultimately, mature servant leadership is less about rescuing people from discomfort and more about creating the conditions where they can grow through it.

Servant leadership is a philosophy worth preserving - but only when practiced with maturity and intentionality.

Helping is not always serving. Leaders can unintentionally disempower others by taking on responsibilities that belong to their teams.

Over-functioning often disguises itself as care. Whether through control, rescuing, or excessive empathy, leaders may create dependency rather than development.

Under-functioning is equally dangerous. Avoiding difficult decisions or endlessly seeking consensus can leave organizations without clear leadership.

Healthy servant leadership begins with self-awareness. Understanding your own motives, values, and leadership tendencies allows you to serve others without sacrificing responsibility, clarity, or sustainability.

Reflect on which of these three archetypes you naturally gravitate toward:

The Heroic Controller – taking over because you believe you'll do it best.

The Overly Empathetic Absorber – carrying emotional or practical burdens that belong to someone else.

The Deferential Decision-Maker – delaying or avoiding difficult decisions in an effort to keep everyone comfortable.

Ask yourself:

What motivation sits underneath this tendency?

Then identify one leadership principle or value you want to intentionally practice the next time you're tempted to over-function, or under-function, for someone else.

The PIQ Perspective — When Servant Leadership Creates Dysfunction

The Greenleaf Center for Servant Leadership

Drawing on decades of experience spanning military education, global leadership development, entrepreneurship, and organizational consulting, Anne argues that leaders today are navigating far more than change—they are navigating transformation. The models that shaped organizations for generations were built for predictability, stability, and control. Today's reality is increasingly defined by complexity, interdependence, uncertainty, and rapid technological change.

Throughout the conversation, Anne introduces concepts from systems thinking, coherence, neuroscience, and quantum science to explore how leaders can better understand themselves, their teams, and the organizations they serve. Rather than focusing exclusively on performance, she encourages leaders to think about creating coherence—within themselves, across teams, and throughout organizational systems.

The discussion explores how attention shapes outcomes, why purpose matters during periods of uncertainty, and how leaders often underestimate the influence of their own emotional state on the systems around them. Anne also shares lessons from military leaders, organizational transformation work, and emerging scientific research that suggest leadership may be less about controlling outcomes and more about developing the awareness required to navigate increasingly complex environments.

Ultimately, the episode invites listeners to consider a provocative possibility: the future of leadership may depend less on better management techniques and more on deeper self-development.

We are living through transformation, not simply change. Many organizations are still trying to return to "business as usual" despite operating in fundamentally different conditions than existed before the pandemic.

Coherence creates the conditions for performance. Leaders often focus on outcomes while overlooking the importance of creating alignment and coherence within individuals, teams, and systems.

Attention drives results. Where leaders place their attention influences what they see, what they reward, and ultimately what grows within their organizations.

Leadership is increasingly about understanding systems, not just parts. Effective leaders learn to see relationships, patterns, and interdependencies rather than focusing solely on isolated problems.

The most powerful leadership development may begin with self-development. Leaders influence systems not only through decisions and actions, but through their presence, awareness, and way of being.

Conduct an Attention Audit this week.

Ask yourself:

• What am I paying attention to most often?
• What am I talking about most often?
• What am I rewarding?
• What am I measuring?
• What am I worried about?

Then challenge yourself to "flip it."

If you typically focus on problems, risks, and shortcomings, intentionally spend time looking for strengths, progress, opportunities, and successes. Notice how changing your attention changes what you see.

Leadership and the New Science – Margaret Wheatley

Amazon.com: Quantum Leadership: New Consciousness in Business: 9781503600331: Tsao, Frederick Chavalit: Books- Tsao and Laszlo

Irreducible: Consciousness, Life, Computers, and Human Nature: Faggin, Federico: 9781803415093: Amazon.com: Books - Federico Faggin

Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage in Human Consciousness: Laloux, Frederic, Wilber, Ken: 9798990250406: Amazon.com: Books

NOVA program on Quantum Science

Nova Program    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBrsWPCp_rs

The world of science hosted by Alan Alda - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxRfDtaot5U

Is The Universe A Hologram? - YouTube  - Leonard Susskind

Quantum Biology: The Hidden Nature of Nature - YouTube

Dr. Don Hoffman – The nature of reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYp5XuGYqqY

Donald Hoffman - What is Consciousness? - YouTube

Donald Hoffman - Quantum Physics of Consciousness - YouTube

Robert Lanza Part I and 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI_F4nOKDSM&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw55BsToVZM

The Science of HeartMath - HeartMath, Inc.

World Science Festival

The Believing Brain: Evolution, Neuroscience, and the Spiritual Instinct - YouTube

What is consciousness?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nrsfZjDiq0 -Tony Nader at Stanford

Consciousness is Not a Computation (Roger Penrose) | AI Podcast Clips - YouTube

Stuart Hammerof - Quantum Physics of Consciousness - YouTube

Consciousness Expert: The Level of Awareness That Makes Everything Feel Effortless | Peter Sage

Through a mix of leadership reflections, personal stories, rapid-fire questions, and a healthy amount of humor, Josh and John explore the experiences, beliefs, and lessons that have shaped them both as leaders and as people. Along the way, they discuss formative jobs, parenting, leadership advice they've abandoned, feedback that challenged them, books that influenced their thinking, and the guests who most impacted their perspectives over the past two seasons.

The conversation serves as both a retrospective on the podcast and a deeper look into the people behind it. Themes of self-awareness, curiosity, development, ownership, psychological safety, overfunctioning, and leadership maturity all resurface—but through a more personal lens than listeners typically hear.

The episode ultimately reinforces one of the central ideas of Leadership Limbo: leadership is less about having the right answers and more about continually learning, growing, reflecting, and becoming more intentional in how we show up for ourselves and others.

00:00 – The False Summit and Bonus Episode Introduction 04:25 – Unexpected Jobs and Early Work Experiences 09:40 – Leadership Advice We've Changed Our Minds About 17:00 – Leadership Concepts We Resisted and Eventually Embraced 22:45 – Feedback That Stung but Turned Out to Be True 27:40 – Guests and Ideas That Changed Our Thinking 33:20 – Topics Leaders Still Misunderstand 36:15 – If You Could Recommend Only One Book 41:50 – Coaching Questions and Leadership Buzzwords 45:00 – Leadership Habits, Workplace Pet Peeves, and Dream Guests 51:00 – Leadership Lessons We Still Struggle to Practice 56:00 – What We Hope Our Children Learn From Watching Us Work 59:20 – Rapid Fire Lightning Round

Leadership development starts with self-awareness. Many of the most meaningful lessons discussed in the episode stem from understanding personal tendencies, blind spots, and patterns of behavior.

Curiosity is a leadership skill. Both hosts reflect on the importance of remaining learners and resisting the temptation to believe they already have the answers.

The hardest leadership work is often internal. Presence, emotional awareness, overfunctioning, underfunctioning, and authentic connection remain ongoing areas of growth.

Many leadership concepts become distorted through overuse. Terms like psychological safety, servant leadership, priorities, and ownership often lose meaning when leaders stop wrestling with their deeper implications.

Leadership is ultimately relational. Whether discussing family, teams, coaching, or organizational culture, the episode repeatedly returns to the importance of how leaders function in relationship with others.

Take a few minutes to answer three of the questions from this episode for yourself:

What feedback have you received that stung but turned out to be true?

What leadership concept did you resist before eventually embracing?

If someone observed you at work every day, what leadership habit would they find most annoying?

Then consider this final reflection:

If someone listened to every conversation you've had as a leader over the last year, what would they conclude you believe about leadership?

A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman

The Social Animal by David Brooks

A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens

The PIQ Perspective by Josh Hugo (josh482.substack.com)

Rather than revisiting individual episodes, this conversation explores the recurring themes that surfaced again and again across discussions with guests from education, healthcare, manufacturing, consulting, construction, and beyond. The result is a thoughtful look at what leadership development actually requires—and where many leaders unintentionally get stuck.

Josh and John examine the tension between leadership frameworks and real-world complexity, arguing that many leadership concepts are oversimplified and often misunderstood. They revisit the central idea that leadership is rarely about certainty and control; instead, it requires learning to navigate ambiguity, make decisions without perfect information, and remain grounded amid competing pressures.

The conversation also returns to one of the podcast's most consistent themes: leaders as developers of people. Drawing on past discussions about de-envelopment, coaching, accountability, and growth, Josh and John reflect on why great leadership begins with a belief in the capacity of others and why development requires more than simply telling people what to do.

The episode also explores self-differentiation, mature functioning, emotional awareness, presence, and the importance of understanding how leaders respond to pressure. Throughout the discussion, the hosts challenge listeners to think differently about leadership—not as a collection of techniques, but as an ongoing practice of helping people grow, contribute, and flourish.

Ultimately, the episode lands on a powerful idea: leadership is less about directing others and more about creating the conditions that help people become more fully themselves.

00:00 – Celebrating 40 Episodes of Leadership Limbo 05:00 – Leadership Advice Is More Nuanced Than It Appears 08:00 – Navigating Ambiguity and Uncertainty as a Leader 10:30 – Development, De-Envelopment, and Believing in Others 15:00 – Self-Differentiation and Mature Leadership 23:00 – Why Technical Expertise Isn't Enough 26:00 – Human Beings vs. Human Doings 31:00 – Care, Competence, and the Work of Leadership 34:00 – Liberation, Storytelling, and Helping Others Flourish 37:00 – Final Reflections and Listener Homework

Leadership is rarely as simple as leadership books make it seem. The most important leadership concepts often require deeper reflection, context, and nuance than many frameworks suggest.

Ambiguity is a reality to navigate. Effective leaders learn to act thoughtfully even when certainty is unavailable.

The best leaders see themselves as developers of people. Growth happens when leaders believe others are capable of learning, improving, and taking ownership of their development.

Technical expertise may earn leadership opportunities, but relational skills determine long-term effectiveness. Self-awareness, emotional intelligence, communication, and presence consistently matter more than many leaders realize.

Leadership is ultimately about creating conditions for others to thrive. Great leaders challenge, support, develop, and liberate others rather than simply directing their work.

Reflect on the people you currently lead, support, coach, teach, or influence.

Ask yourself:

Where am I solving problems for people that they could solve themselves?

Where am I confusing caring for someone with developing someone?

What would it look like to create more conditions for growth, ownership, and responsibility?

Finally, consider John's closing question:

How are you helping liberate others to become their best selves—and what might need to change in your own leadership to make that possible?

A Failure of Nerve — Edwin Friedman

The Support-Challenge Matrix — GiANT Worldwide

The Death of Demographics — David Allison

The PIQ Perspective — Josh Hugo (josh482.substack.com)

Drawing on more than three decades in the construction industry, Dan shares how his unlikely combination of construction experience and a lifelong love of theater shaped his understanding of leadership. While technical expertise may get projects built, Dan argues that stories are what connect people, create meaning, build trust, and help teams navigate complexity.

Throughout the conversation, Dan explains why storytelling is far more than entertainment. Effective leaders use stories to help people visualize the future, connect work to purpose, lower defensiveness, communicate lessons, and create shared understanding. Whether onboarding a new employee, launching a project, developing a team member, or navigating a difficult challenge, stories help leaders engage both the head and the heart.

The discussion also explores the tension many industries face between technical competence and people leadership. Dan reflects on how construction has historically emphasized hard skills and measurable outcomes while often overlooking the relational and emotional skills that drive culture, engagement, and long-term performance. As younger generations enter leadership roles, he sees growing demand for purpose, belonging, and meaningful work—creating new opportunities for leaders who can paint a compelling picture of what is possible.

One of the strongest themes of the episode is the role of the middle manager as a translator and conductor. Great managers help bridge the gap between executive vision and frontline reality, creating clarity while helping people understand how their individual work contributes to something larger than themselves.

Whether you lead a construction crew, a school, a healthcare team, or a growing business, this conversation offers practical insights into how stories help leaders influence, develop, and inspire others.

00:00 – Welcome and Introducing Dan Beatty 06:00 – Dan's Construction Journey and Three-Act Career Story 09:30 – Why Storytelling Matters in Leadership 17:30 – The Challenge of Measuring Leadership ROI 22:10 – Purpose, Belonging, and the Next Generation Workforce 25:10 – Storytelling on Projects and Building Shared Vision 30:00 – Coaching, Development, and Personal Growth Stories 34:00 – Leading Through Complexity and Change 40:15 – Visualization, Narrative, and Untapped Leadership Potential 46:00 – Onboarding, Belonging, and Creating a Roadmap for Success 52:50 – Dan's Leadership Inspiration: Captain Kirk 56:00 – Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Storytelling is one of the most powerful ways leaders connect people to purpose, meaning, and action.

The best stories do more than entertain—they provide lessons, create clarity, and help people visualize success.

Leadership influence grows when people can see themselves inside the story rather than simply receiving instructions.

Purpose and belonging remain two of the strongest motivators across industries, especially for younger generations entering the workforce.

Great middle managers act as translators between executive vision and frontline reality.

Storytelling is particularly valuable during periods of uncertainty because it helps people make sense of challenges while maintaining hope and direction.

Effective onboarding is ultimately narrative building—helping people understand where they are today, where they are going, and how they fit into the journey.

Think about a challenge, project, or change initiative you're currently leading.

Instead of immediately focusing on tasks, metrics, or deliverables, ask yourself:

What story am I helping people see?

Can your team visualize the outcome? Can they connect their work to a larger purpose? Do they understand where they fit into the journey?

This week, intentionally use a story, metaphor, or personal experience to help someone better understand a challenge they're facing.

Constructive Leadership Solutions (Dan Beatty)

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey

The Death of Demographics by David Allison

The PIQ Perspective by Josh Hugo 

Leaders frequently say they want teams that “take ownership,” “act like owners,” or are “biased toward action.” But what do those phrases actually mean in practice? And more importantly, what conditions are leaders responsible for creating before they can reasonably expect ownership from others?

The conversation begins by unpacking the tension beneath common leadership frustrations. While many leaders claim they want initiative, solutions, and autonomy from their teams, they often unknowingly create cultures that discourage risk-taking, punish imperfect ideas, bottleneck decision-making, or leave responsibilities undefined. In those environments, calls for “ownership” become less about empowerment and more about leader frustration.

Josh and John challenge the simplistic idea that ownership is merely initiative or hustle. Instead, they define ownership as understanding your responsibilities, acting within them courageously, and resisting both passivity and over-functioning. Real ownership requires clarity, trust, development, and appropriate authority—not just motivational language.

A major theme throughout the episode is the role of leaders in either enabling or suppressing ownership. Leaders who immediately shoot down ideas, reclaim decisions, or maintain control over every outcome unintentionally train teams to stop taking initiative. Likewise, organizations that fail to define roles, decision-making rights, and developmental pathways often create confusion rather than accountability.

The episode also explores the relationship between ownership and growth. Strong teams are not built by collecting experts who stay comfortably within their lane. They are built by consistently challenging people within their zone of proximal development—stretching them enough to grow while still providing coaching and support.

Ultimately, the conversation reframes ownership as a leadership systems issue rather than simply an employee mindset issue. If leaders want courageous, accountable, solutions-oriented teams, they must first create environments where people are trusted, developed, and genuinely empowered to act.

00:00 – Introduction and Spring Chaos with Kids and Sports 04:16 – Recapping Psychological Safety and Team Development 06:28 – What Do Leaders Actually Mean by “Ownership”? 09:17 – Why Teams Often Flinch at “Extreme Ownership” 12:48 – Defining Ownership More Clearly 16:06 – Generational Complaints and Leadership Frustration 20:49 – “I Want Solutions, Not Problems” 25:34 – “Act Like an Owner” and “Bias Toward Action” 27:43 – Risk-Taking and Creating Conditions for Ownership 31:32 – Leadership Bottlenecks and Decision-Making Rights 35:22 – Challenging People Within Their Growth Zone 39:48 – Coaching vs. Simply Demanding Ownership 41:10 – Roles, Responsibilities, and Organizational Clarity 46:22 – Homework and Final Leadership Reflections

Ownership is not the same thing as over-functioning or taking over everyone else’s work.

Leaders often unintentionally suppress ownership through defensiveness, bottlenecks, and lack of clarity.

Psychological safety and ownership are deeply connected because ownership requires risk-taking.

Teams stop bringing solutions when leaders consistently shut ideas down or reclaim control.

Clear decision-making rights are essential for real accountability.

Strong leaders challenge people within their growth zone while also coaching and supporting them.

Undefined roles and vague expectations create confusion, not ownership.

Leadership phrases like “be biased toward action” only work if leaders clearly define what that actually means.

Think about one leadership phrase you frequently use with your team—“take ownership,” “be proactive,” “bring solutions,” or something similar.

Now ask yourself honestly: have I actually created the conditions where people can succeed at this?

Then ask someone you trust on your team what those phrases actually sound like from their perspective. Do they feel empowering, confusing, risky, frustrating, or unclear?

Pay attention this week to whether your leadership behaviors truly reinforce the ownership you say you want.

Jocko Willink’s concept of “Extreme Ownership” Effective Coaching by Myles Downey M. Scott Peck’s community development model Concept of Zone of Proximal Development Liz Wiseman’s Multipliers and the “80% rule”

Rather than treating psychological safety as a static value or aspirational slogan, this conversation reframes it as a developmental process that teams must move through together. Drawing on models of team formation, coaching, and community building, Josh and John unpack why healthy teams inevitably experience tension, disagreement, and emotional discomfort—and why avoiding those moments prevents true trust from forming.

The episode begins by revisiting the central role leaders play in shaping psychological safety. Josh shares an example of a leader who deeply cares about the mission of the organization but unknowingly shuts down feedback through defensiveness, overcorrection, and lack of curiosity. The result is a team that talks about the leader rather than to the leader. This dynamic becomes the foundation for a larger conversation about how organizational culture is often shaped by the emotional maturity and feedback capacity of its most senior leaders.

From there, the discussion introduces a four-stage framework for team development: pseudo-community, chaos, emptying, and community. In pseudo-community, teams maintain surface-level harmony and avoid real disagreement. Chaos emerges when authentic differences surface and tension becomes unavoidable. The critical leadership challenge is whether teams avoid that discomfort—or move through it.

A major focus of the episode is how leaders respond during the chaos stage. Strong leaders normalize disagreement, resist premature consensus, and help teams stay emotionally present during tension instead of retreating into avoidance or conflict camps. Rather than rescuing teams from discomfort, they create conditions where people can remain engaged within it.

The conversation then moves into the concept of “emptying,” where individuals begin letting go of ego, defensiveness, and the need to be right. Josh and John argue that this stage is essential for true collaboration and psychological safety because it creates the possibility for people to hear perspectives beyond their own.

The episode ultimately reframes psychological safety as something earned through intentional leadership, honest conflict, and emotional maturity—not through comfort or superficial harmony. Healthy teams are not the teams without tension; they are the teams capable of moving through tension together.

00:00 – Introduction and Returning to Psychological Safety 04:49 – Revisiting Leadership’s Central Role in Psychological Safety 09:42 – Why Middle Managers Often Feel the Least Safe 12:21 – Using “I Statements” to Create Better Feedback Conversations 18:00 – Introducing the Four Stages of Team Development 21:59 – Pseudo-Community and Surface-Level Harmony 25:02 – Chaos, Conflict, and Emotional Reactivity 30:17 – What Leaders Must Model During Team Tension 39:48 – Emptying Ego and Letting Go of the Need to Be Right 45:07 – From Chaos to Community and High Performance 47:24 – Final Reflections and Homework for Leaders

Psychological safety is built through process, not declarations.

Teams often begin with surface-level harmony before authentic tension emerges.

Avoiding conflict keeps teams stuck in pseudo-community.

Leaders must normalize disagreement and emotional discomfort during moments of tension.

Receiving feedback well is one of the strongest indicators of psychologically safe leadership.

Strong teams require individuals to let go of ego and the need to always be right.

Healthy conflict creates the conditions for trust, collaboration, and performance.

Psychological safety is not the absence of chaos—it is the ability to move through it together.

Reflect on your current team and ask yourself honestly: where are we right now? Are we maintaining surface-level harmony? Are we stuck in unresolved chaos? Or are we beginning to move toward deeper trust and honest engagement?

Then reflect on your own leadership posture during moments of tension. Do you move toward premature agreement, avoidance, defensiveness, or over-control?

This week, practice staying emotionally present during one uncomfortable conversation. Resist the urge to rescue the team from tension too quickly. Instead, help the group remain engaged long enough to work through it honestly.

Effective Coaching by Myles Downey The Different Drum by M. Scott Peck

The episode begins by revisiting a core idea from the previous conversation: psychological safety is not the same thing as comfort. Real psychological safety involves the ability to take interpersonal risks—sharing disagreement, offering difficult feedback, asking questions, and speaking honestly without fear of punishment. But in many organizations, the language of safety has quietly shifted toward preserving comfort and minimizing discomfort.

Josh and John explore how this dynamic shows up in common workplace phrases that often sound healthy on the surface. Statements like “let’s take this offline,” “I’m not comfortable with your representation of the actual facts,” or “let’s create a working group” can sometimes reflect thoughtful leadership. But they can also become mechanisms for avoiding direct tension, delaying disagreement, or outsourcing difficult conversations.

A major theme of the episode is emotional accommodation—the tendency to prioritize emotional comfort over honest engagement. Leaders may rescue others from discomfort, soften necessary feedback, or suppress disagreement in order to preserve harmony. While these behaviors are often well-intentioned, they can unintentionally create cultures where people avoid risk, withhold truth, or rely on leaders to manage tension for them.

The conversation also dives into anonymous feedback and surveys, questioning whether they truly build psychological safety or simply compensate for leadership cultures where direct feedback does not feel possible. Josh and John argue that healthy organizations ultimately create conditions where people can speak in their own voice, rather than relying on anonymity to protect themselves.

The episode closes with a deeper reflection on leadership rescue dynamics. When leaders speak on behalf of others rather than helping people speak for themselves, they may unintentionally reduce ownership and reinforce dependency. Instead, strong leadership creates the conditions where people can name their own experience, engage in disagreement directly, and develop the confidence to take interpersonal risks themselves.

Ultimately, the conversation reframes psychological safety not as the elimination of tension, but as the ability to remain engaged within it.

00:00 – Introduction and Returning to Psychological Safety 02:11 – Revisiting Risk, Comfort, and Emotional Accommodation 05:48 – Why Engagement Remains Low Despite Psychological Safety Trends 09:20 – Emotional Accommodation and Leadership Validation 13:44 – “Let’s Take This Offline” and Avoiding Tension 19:56 – Facts, Truth, and Competing Perspectives 25:21 – Working Groups and Outsourcing Conflict 28:57 – Anonymous Surveys and Feedback Culture 34:03 – Speaking for Others vs. Helping Them Speak 36:43 – Final Reflections and Taking Interpersonal Risks

Psychological safety is about enabling interpersonal risk, not protecting comfort.

Leaders often emotionally accommodate others in ways that reduce honesty and accountability.

Avoiding tension does not create trust; engaging it productively does.

Common workplace phrases can unintentionally suppress disagreement and delay growth.

Anonymous feedback systems may reveal deeper leadership and culture problems.

Strong leaders create conditions where people speak for themselves rather than being rescued.

Growth-oriented cultures normalize respectful disagreement and direct feedback.

Real psychological safety requires both courage and responsibility.

Pay attention this week to the language you use when tension or disagreement appears. Notice when you instinctively move conflict offline, soften feedback, outsource decisions, or rescue others from discomfort.

Ask yourself: am I responding from principle, or reacting to relieve tension?

Choose one conversation this week where you can remain present in the discomfort instead of immediately trying to resolve it. Practice creating space for direct engagement rather than emotional accommodation.

• Josh's Article on Psychological Safety on Substack
• Amy Edmondson’s book, "The Fearless Organization" on psychological safety
• Google’s Project Aristotle research

The episode begins by examining a growing tension: by many measurable standards, society is objectively safer than it has ever been. Yet in workplaces, leaders and teams increasingly report feeling less safe—less heard, less respected, and less able to speak up. This disconnect raises an important question: what do we actually mean when we say “safety”?

Josh and John ground the conversation in the original intent of psychological safety—the ability to take interpersonal risks such as speaking up, challenging ideas, admitting mistakes, and asking for help. However, they argue that in practice, the concept has often drifted away from risk and toward comfort. And when safety becomes synonymous with comfort, something essential is lost.

A central theme of the episode is the inherent contradiction between safety and risk. True growth, innovation, and healthy team dynamics require discomfort. If individuals feel completely comfortable, they are likely not taking meaningful risks. This creates a dangerous pattern in organizations where teams prioritize agreement over challenge, harmony over honesty, and comfort over growth.

The conversation explores how this dynamic leads to emotional accommodation—where leaders and teams avoid difficult conversations in order to maintain short-term comfort. While often well-intentioned, this approach ultimately erodes trust, weakens accountability, and limits development. Instead of creating safe environments, it creates fragile ones.

Josh and John also highlight the role of leaders in this tension. Leaders are not responsible for eliminating discomfort, but for creating conditions where people can take risks and know they will not be punished for doing so. This requires a shift from protecting comfort to building resilience, responsibility, and mutual accountability within teams.

The episode ultimately reframes psychological safety not as the absence of discomfort, but as the presence of trust, challenge, and growth. It sets the stage for a deeper exploration in the next episode, where the focus will shift toward practical ways leaders can build truly healthy team environments.

00:00 – Introduction to Leadership Limbo and Hosts 04:02 – Why Psychological Safety Became a Leadership Focus 07:13 – Are We Actually Safer Than Before? 10:01 – The Tension Between Safety and Risk 15:07 – Defining Psychological Safety (Amy Edmondson) 20:01 – Why Comfort Is Not the Goal 23:11 – Emotional Accommodation in Teams 28:17 – Agreement vs. Challenge in Organizations 33:41 – Leadership Responsibility and Risk-Taking 39:44 – The Problem with Over-Accommodation 41:49 – Closing Reflections and What Comes Next

Psychological safety is about enabling risk, not preserving comfort.

Safety and risk are inherently linked—growth requires discomfort.

Organizations often drift toward agreement and harmony at the expense of honest challenge.

Emotional accommodation can weaken teams by avoiding necessary tension.

Leaders are responsible for creating conditions where risk is possible, not where discomfort is eliminated.

True safety means people can speak up without punishment, not without disagreement.

Over-protecting individuals can reduce accountability and limit growth.

Healthy teams balance support with challenge.

Reflect on your last team conversation where there was clear disagreement or potential for it. Ask yourself: did I lean toward comfort or toward growth?

Identify one moment this week where you can take a small interpersonal risk—whether that is asking a harder question, offering a different perspective, or naming a concern. Pay attention not just to what you say, but to how you respond when others challenge you.

The goal is not to eliminate discomfort, but to build your capacity to stay engaged within it.

Amy Edmondson’s research on psychological safety

Concepts from Edwin Friedman’s Failure of Nerve

Jonathan Haidt's and The Anxious Generation

Suzi’s journey begins in education, where her experience teaching and coaching middle school students shaped her understanding of human development. What started as a desire to impact students evolved into a deeper curiosity about how people grow—and what prevents them from doing so. That curiosity ultimately led her into leadership development, where she now works with organizations to design cultures that don’t just look good on paper, but actually develop people over time.

A central theme of the conversation is the concept of “wet cement”—the idea that while early life experiences shape us, leaders always have the opportunity to return to a more pliable state. Suzi challenges the notion that leadership behaviors are fixed, emphasizing instead that growth requires self-awareness, honesty, and a willingness to revisit formative experiences that continue to influence how we lead.

The discussion moves into behavior change, where Suzi reframes it not as correction, but as awareness and control. Leaders are not trying to become someone entirely different; they are learning to understand their tendencies and harness them appropriately depending on the context. This shift from judgment to understanding is what allows behavior change to become sustainable.

From there, the conversation expands into leadership architecture—the systems and environments that either enable or inhibit leadership growth. Suzi shares a critical insight: even the healthiest individual leader cannot thrive in an unhealthy system. This realization drove her work beyond individual coaching and into helping organizations intentionally design cultures that support development at scale.

The episode highlights what strong cultures actually look like in practice. They invest in people development as a core function, not an afterthought. They operate with clear, lived values that shape behavior. And they maintain a disciplined commitment to protecting those values, even when it requires difficult decisions.

The conversation also addresses the current leadership landscape, where uncertainty, social pressure, and constant change have created a sense of paralysis for many leaders. Suzi emphasizes that the answer is not more control or more certainty, but a deeper sense of internal security. Leaders who are grounded in who they are—who can offer calm, clarity, and presence—create stability for others, even in chaotic environments.

The episode closes with a powerful reminder that leadership is not about having all the answers. It is about knowing yourself, staying curious, and creating the conditions for others to grow.

00:00 – Introduction to Leadership Limbo and Hosts 07:14 – Suzi’s Background in Education and Coaching 13:05 – The “Wet Cement” Concept and Human Development 18:01 – Behavior Change Through Self-Awareness 22:06 – What Is Leadership Architecture? 24:00 – Why Healthy Leaders Struggle in Unhealthy Systems 26:52 – The Current State of Organizational Leadership 31:25 – Leading with Presence, Security, and Calm 35:08 – What Strong Cultures Actually Do Differently 41:10 – The Role of Principles in Leadership Development 47:25 – Leading Through Change and Uncertainty 50:33 – Personal Leadership Advice and Self-Reflection 54:22 – A Leader Who Inspired Suzi 58:00 – Final Reflections and Closing

Leadership development begins with self-awareness, not behavior correction.

Past experiences shape leadership, but they do not have to define it.

Behavior change is about understanding and harnessing tendencies, not eliminating them.

Healthy individuals cannot thrive in unhealthy systems—culture matters.

Strong organizations invest in people development as a core strategy.

Values must be lived and protected, not just stated.

Leaders create stability through presence and internal security, not certainty.

Curiosity is one of the most important traits a leader can develop.

Identify one behavior you tend to default to under pressure. Instead of labeling it as good or bad, ask: what is driving this behavior? What need is underneath it?

Then, practice noticing when that behavior shows up this week. In one moment, choose to respond differently—not by forcing change, but by intentionally adjusting how you express it. Focus on awareness and control, not perfection.

Work from Oxygen and leadership development frameworks Liz Fosslien’s leadership illustrations on change and communication Maya Angelou and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

At the center of the discussion is a simple but demanding idea: you cannot lead others well if you are not grounded in yourself. When leaders face pressure, anxiety, or emotionally charged situations, they often default into reactive patterns—accommodating, rescuing, avoiding, or controlling. These patterns may feel helpful in the moment, but they ultimately erode trust and limit the growth of others.

Josh introduces a deeper framing of “self” versus “pseudo-self,” drawing on concepts from systems thinking and internal family systems. The self represents a grounded, principled core—marked by calmness, clarity, curiosity, compassion, and confidence. The pseudo-self, by contrast, emerges under pressure and leads to reactive leadership behaviors that prioritize short-term relief over long-term effectiveness.

The conversation also explores the connection between leadership and spirituality—not in a narrow or prescriptive sense, but as a broader connection to purpose, meaning, and perspective. Leaders who are grounded in something beyond the immediate moment—whether that is purpose, values, or a sense of awe—are better equipped to remain steady and present when circumstances become chaotic.

A key theme throughout the episode is the importance of presence. Effective leaders do not eliminate uncertainty; they create calm within it. They maintain consistency, speak from a place of integrity, and resist the urge to over-accommodate or speak on behalf of others. Instead, they create the conditions for people to take responsibility for themselves.

The episode ultimately lands on a progression: leadership begins with self, extends to how we show up for others, and culminates in how we move forward together. In uncertain moments, the most powerful thing a leader can do is remain grounded, intentional, and clear—so that others can do the same.

00:00 – Introduction to Leadership Limbo and Hosts 03:05 – Five Key Questions for Leaders During Difficult Moments 09:51 – Understanding the Concept of Self in Leadership 15:29 – The Eight Cs of Self and Emotional Reactivity 21:17 – The Dangers of Speaking for Others and the 'We' 24:23 – The Connection Between Spirituality and Leadership Effectiveness 27:00 – The Role of Purpose and Awe in Leadership 33:50 – Presence, Calmness, and Finding Sacredness in the Mundane 36:49 – From Self to Others 44:40 – Final Reflections and Practical Steps for Leaders

Leadership effectiveness begins with the ability to lead from a grounded sense of self.

Reactive behaviors often stem from pressure and can undermine trust and ownership.

Language matters—speaking for others can unintentionally limit their agency.

Spiritual grounding, whether through purpose or perspective, strengthens leadership presence.

Calm, clarity, and consistency are more powerful than overreaction in uncertain moments.

Leaders create conditions for others to lead themselves rather than solving everything for them.

Awareness and intentionality are more valuable than immediate answers.

Revisit the five leadership questions from the prior episode and reflect on where you feel most reactive right now. Then take one intentional step to reconnect with yourself—whether through quiet reflection, engaging with something that creates a sense of awe, or simply slowing down enough to notice how you are showing up.

This week, practice speaking from self. Notice when you default to “we” and instead ground your statements in what you believe, what you see, and what you are responsible for. Pay attention to how this shifts your presence and your leadership.

Internal Family Systems (IFS) and the concept of “No Bad Parts” The Eight Cs of Self Bowen Family Systems Theory and self-differentiation

Framed by global instability, political tension, economic uncertainty, and the everyday realities teams are carrying into the workplace, the conversation explores the intersection between the external world and internal leadership responsibility. Leaders are not operating in a vacuum—and neither are the people they lead.

The core of the episode centers on surfacing the often unspoken questions leaders carry in these moments. What do I need right now to lead well? How do I balance empathy with accountability? What is my role in addressing external issues that impact my team? Where do I represent the institution, and where do I show up as myself? How much should I name, and how much should I move forward?

Rather than resolving these tensions, Josh and John emphasize that the real risk is not getting the answer wrong—it is failing to ask the question at all. When leaders avoid these internal questions, they default into reactive behaviors: over-functioning, avoidance, premature certainty, or shifting emotional burden onto others.

The episode ultimately reframes leadership in complex times as a practice of awareness before action. By slowing down and naming the questions beneath the surface, leaders create the conditions to respond with intention rather than react for relief.

This conversation sets up a continuation, where the focus will shift from the questions leaders must ask to the practical ways they can navigate and respond to them.

00:00 – Welcome Back and Setting the Context Re-entry after a short break and framing the intensity of the current moment.

04:00 – The World Showing Up at Work Why leadership cannot ignore geopolitical, economic, and social realities.

09:00 – Helplessness and the Limits of Control Naming the feeling of not being able to influence large-scale events.

13:00 – What Leaders Carry Internally How unprocessed thoughts and emotions shape leadership behavior.

17:00 – Question 1: What Do I Need Right Now? Grounding yourself before attempting to lead others.

21:00 – Question 2: Empathy vs. Accountability Balancing care for people with the need to continue the work.

26:00 – Question 3: Politics, Institutions, and Leadership Identity Navigating external issues while representing an organization.

31:00 – Question 4: What Do I Name vs. Move Forward From? Deciding when to acknowledge and when to proceed.

34:00 – What Can I Actually Do? Shifting from helplessness to intentional action.

36:00 – Closing and Looking Ahead Framing next episode: moving from questions to strategies.

Leadership in uncertain times starts with awareness, not answers.

Unasked questions often lead to reactive leadership behaviors.

Leaders must balance personal identity, team needs, and institutional responsibility.

Empathy without boundaries can become over-functioning; avoidance can become disengagement.

Not everything must be addressed, but ignoring everything creates disconnection.

The question “what can I do?” shifts leaders from helplessness to action.

Strong leadership requires choosing response over reaction.

Take 10 minutes this week to write down the questions you have been avoiding. Not the answers—the questions. What is creating tension for you right now at the intersection of the world and your work? Where do you feel unclear, conflicted, or reactive?

Choose one of those questions and sit with it. Don’t rush to solve it. Notice how simply naming it changes how you show up. Leadership begins by asking better questions, not by forcing faster answers.

The conversation reframes ambiguity as more than just uncertainty. It often shows up as complexity, chaos, or competing priorities that lack clear answers. For middle managers, this tension is amplified as they sit between direction from above and responsibility to execute below—often without full clarity in either direction.

A key shift explored in this episode is moving from reacting to ambiguity to responding to it. Reactive leadership shows up as over-functioning, avoidance, or premature certainty. Responsive leadership, on the other hand, requires self-awareness, clarity of principles, and the ability to stay grounded even when pressure rises. This is where the concept of self-differentiation becomes essential—leaders who can remain steady without collapsing under stress or overcompensating to control outcomes.

Josh and John also emphasize that ambiguity is not something to “get through,” but something to learn from. Leaders who slow down enough to sit in uncertainty—rather than rush past it—gain deeper insight into themselves, their teams, and the situation at hand.

From there, the episode moves into practical ways to lead through ambiguity. Naming uncertainty openly creates clarity and trust. Establishing clear roles and decision rights reduces confusion. Building a culture of feedback, shared language, and real conversations ensures teams can move forward even without perfect answers. And importantly, practicing these behaviors before pressure hits helps teams respond more effectively when it does.

The conversation ultimately lands on a simple but challenging truth: leadership is not about eliminating ambiguity—it is about developing the capacity to lead within it.

00:00 – Opening and Podcast Setup Light intro and framing the return to ambiguity as a core leadership theme.

03:30 – What Ambiguity Really Is Defining ambiguity, complexity, and chaos—and how they show up in leadership.

06:00 – Why Leaders Struggle with Uncertainty The instinct to rush to clarity versus learning to sit in the unknown.

09:00 – The Unique Pressure on Middle Managers Leading with incomplete information while still driving execution.

12:30 – Respond vs. React Self-differentiation and how leaders avoid over-functioning, avoidance, or control.

18:00 – Naming Ambiguity to Create Clarity Why acknowledging uncertainty builds trust and alignment.

25:00 – Building Systems That Reduce Confusion Roles, decision rights, and creating structure inside ambiguity.

30:00 – Culture, Feedback, and Communication How shared language and real conversations help teams navigate uncertainty.

36:00 – Practicing Leadership Before It’s Needed Building muscle memory so teams are ready when ambiguity hits.

39:00 – Closing Reflections and Application Why ambiguity is not something to escape—but something to use.

Ambiguity is not a temporary phase—it is a constant condition of leadership.

Strong leaders respond to uncertainty with intention rather than reacting emotionally.

Self-differentiation allows leaders to stay grounded under pressure without overcorrecting.

Naming ambiguity openly creates alignment and reduces hidden tension.

Clear roles and decision rights eliminate unnecessary confusion.

A culture of feedback and shared language strengthens teams in uncertain moments.

The best leaders don’t avoid ambiguity—they build the capacity to lead through it.

Choose one situation this week where you feel unclear, uncertain, or under pressure. Instead of rushing to solve it, pause and name the ambiguity—first for yourself, then for your team if appropriate. Ask: what do we know, what don’t we know, and what principles will guide us forward? Practice responding with intention rather than reacting for relief.

Concept of self-differentiated leadership (Bowen Family Systems) Failure of Nerve (Edwin Friedman)

The conversation begins with Dr. Griffen’s early entry into leadership, sparked not by ambition for title, but by frustration with curriculum that failed to reflect the lived experiences of his students. That moment shaped a leadership philosophy centered on relevance, connection, and cultural awareness—principles that translate directly into any organizational context. Whether in education or business, leaders must make their “curriculum” meaningful to the people they serve, or risk disengagement and disconnection.

As the discussion deepens, Dr. Griffen reflects on his experience leading through COVID-19 and a period of national racial reckoning. These overlapping crises revealed a fundamental truth: leadership is forged in moments of uncertainty, not stability. When systems broke down, educators were forced to respond without clear guidance, navigating issues ranging from digital access and food insecurity to racial trauma and community trust. In these moments, leadership became less about control and more about responsiveness, humility, and shared problem-solving.

A central theme of the episode is the danger of “hero leadership.” Dr. Griffen challenges leaders to resist the instinct to solve problems for others, particularly in moments of crisis. Instead, effective leadership requires listening, curiosity, and collaboration. Leaders must create space for others to exercise agency, contribute solutions, and grow into leadership themselves.

The conversation also explores the relationship between ambiguity and leadership. Dr. Griffen offers a powerful reframing: leadership does not create the moment—the moment creates the leader. In times of chaos, strong leaders adapt by recognizing when to step forward, when to step back, and when to elevate others. They embrace discomfort, remain grounded in their values, and are willing to be wrong in service of progress.

The episode closes with a reflection on leadership presence, as Dr. Griffen shares the lasting influence of a mentor who embodied confidence, clarity, and service. That presence—rooted in both competence and care—continues to shape how he leads today.

00:00 – Introduction and Welcoming Dr. Aaron Griffen Opening conversation and overview of Dr. Griffen’s background and leadership journey.

09:00 – From Curriculum to Leadership Purpose How early experiences with misaligned curriculum shaped a commitment to relevance and engagement.

18:00 – Transforming School Culture Through Leadership Lessons from leading a high school through instability, turnover, and cultural change.

25:00 – Relevance, Culture, and Organizational “Curriculum” Connecting educational practices to broader leadership and organizational development.

32:00 – Leading Through COVID and Racial Reckoning Navigating multiple crises and redefining leadership in real time.

44:00 – Avoiding Hero Leadership and Building Agency Why listening, curiosity, and collaboration outperform control and saviorism.

52:00 – Leadership in Ambiguity and Chaos How strong leaders adapt, empower others, and grow through uncertainty.

01:03:00 – Leadership Influence and Final Reflections The impact of mentorship and the importance of leadership presence.

Leadership is shaped by context; difficult moments reveal and develop true leadership capacity.

Relevance drives engagement—whether in classrooms or organizations.

Strong leaders resist the urge to “save” others and instead build agency through listening and collaboration.

Ambiguity is not something to eliminate; it is the condition that requires leadership.

Effective leaders know when to step forward, step back, and elevate others.

Crisis exposes both system gaps and leadership opportunities.

Leadership presence is built through consistency, confidence, and service to others.

Leading in the Midst of It All: Surviving and Thriving Through COVID-19 and Racial Reckonings (Alexander, Griffen A., Williams, Griffen K.)

Rather than treating ambiguity as a problem to solve, Josh and John position it as the environment in which leadership truly exists. Whether it’s navigating shifting priorities, incomplete information, competing perspectives, or unclear ownership, ambiguity is not a failure of leadership — it is the condition that requires it.

The episode breaks down different forms of ambiguity, from moments where there is genuinely no clear answer to situations where competing voices are equally confident in different paths forward. The discussion highlights how leaders often unintentionally increase ambiguity through lack of clarity, shifting principles, or avoidance of difficult decisions.

A key tension explored is the emotional and psychological weight of ambiguity. Leaders are not only managing uncertainty themselves, but also absorbing and translating that uncertainty for their teams. This creates a layered challenge, particularly for middle managers who sit between executive decisions and frontline realities.

Josh and John introduce the Stockdale Paradox as a powerful framing tool — the ability to acknowledge the full difficulty of a situation while maintaining confidence that a path forward exists. This balance becomes essential for leaders trying to communicate honestly without creating panic.

Ultimately, the episode reinforces a core idea: ambiguity cannot be eliminated, but it can be named, understood, and navigated with intention. Leadership is less about providing answers and more about guiding people through the space between not knowing and moving forward anyway.

00:00 – Opening and Framing the Conversation on Ambiguity Introduction to the topic and listener inspiration.

05:00 – What Is Ambiguity in Leadership? Defining ambiguity and exploring real-world examples.

10:00 – When Certainty Creates Ambiguity How competing confident perspectives create complexity.

15:00 – Why Ambiguity Shows Up in Leadership Change, incomplete information, and the nature of decision-making.

20:00 – The Role of Leadership in Uncertainty Why ambiguity is the condition that requires leadership.

25:00 – The Middle Manager Challenge Navigating ambiguity both from above and below.

30:00 – Leading Others Through Ambiguity Balancing honesty, confidence, and emotional stability.

35:00 – The Stockdale Paradox and Naming Reality Holding tension between difficulty and hope.

40:00 – Closing Reflections and Homework Preparing for deeper strategies in the next episode.

Ambiguity is not a leadership failure; it is the environment where leadership is required.

Leaders often increase ambiguity by avoiding clarity, ownership, or difficult decisions.

Uncertainty exists both in the absence of information and in the presence of competing certainty.

Middle managers experience amplified ambiguity as it flows through the organization.

Effective leadership requires acknowledging uncertainty without creating instability.

The ability to hold tension — difficulty and hope at the same time — is a core leadership skill.

Naming ambiguity is the first step to navigating it.

Pause and identify where you are currently experiencing ambiguity in your leadership or work. Name it directly. Instead of trying to immediately solve it, sit with it and recognize the tension between what you know and what you don’t. Consider how that ambiguity is impacting your decisions, your communication, and your team. Awareness is the first step toward leading through it.

The Stockdale Paradox  Bill Kurtz Substack on leadership and courage Brené Brown concept of “name it to tame it”

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark sit down with David Boelens, leader of the Integrated Talent Development organization at Raytheon, to explore what it really takes to develop leaders at scale. Drawing on his experience as a U.S. Army cavalry officer and now as a leader responsible for developing thousands of professionals in operations, supply chain, and quality roles, David shares lessons about leadership that translate across both military and corporate environments.

The conversation begins with David reflecting on his early leadership experiences in the Army, including platoon leadership during a deployment to Iraq. Those experiences shaped a philosophy that still guides his leadership today: you cannot afford not to invest deeply in developing people. Leaders must be willing to allow learning, mistakes, and growth because the lessons gained in lower-risk moments often become critical later.

From there, the discussion shifts into leadership development inside large organizations. David introduces the concept of leader intent, a military principle that focuses less on dictating every step and more on clearly defining the outcome and the purpose behind it. When people understand the “why” behind the mission, they can adapt, take initiative, and solve problems without waiting for direction.

David also shares how his team approaches talent development systems inside a large organization. Effective development programs must balance three priorities: they must be personal, scalable, and sustainable. Programs often fail when leaders optimize them for administrators rather than the people and managers who must interact with them.

The conversation closes with practical insights on developing early-career leaders. One of the most common challenges David sees is hesitation to speak up or contribute ideas. Strong leadership development creates safe opportunities for people to practice initiative—whether through networking, experiential learning, or ownership of their own development path.

Throughout the episode, the central message remains consistent: great leadership development is not about controlling outcomes or handing people the answers. It is about creating environments where people take ownership, develop confidence, and grow their leadership muscles through real responsibility.

00:00 – Opening Banter and Introducing David Boelens Josh and John introduce the episode and welcome David, leader of Raytheon’s Integrated Talent Development organization.

05:00 – Military Leadership and the Reality of Learning Through Experience David reflects on leading soldiers early in his career and how real-world responsibility shapes leadership.

12:00 – Lessons from Combat Leadership A story about initiative and learning under pressure illustrates how small leadership lessons become critical later.

20:00 – Leader Intent: A Military Principle for Modern Leadership Why defining the outcome and purpose is more powerful than micromanaging execution.

28:00 – Building Talent Development Systems at Scale Balancing personal development with scalable and sustainable learning systems.

36:00 – Ownership vs. Spoon-Feeding Development Why leaders must resist solving every problem and instead require people to own their growth.

44:00 – Developing Early Career Leaders Helping younger professionals find their voice and confidence to contribute.

47:00 – Leadership Inspiration and Final Reflections David shares leadership influences including Colin Powell and Abraham Lincoln.

Leadership development requires investing deeply in people long before the stakes are high.

Clear leader intent enables initiative and adaptability instead of dependence.

Development systems must balance personal relevance with scalability and sustainability.

Ownership is a critical leadership muscle and must be practiced, not taught theoretically.

Early career leaders often need encouragement and structure to speak up and contribute.

Great leaders create environments where people can practice initiative safely.

Leadership growth happens through experience, responsibility, and reflection.

Where in your leadership are you unintentionally taking ownership away from others? Identify one area this week where you can clarify the outcome you want while leaving space for your team to determine how to achieve it. Leadership development grows when responsibility shifts from the leader to the people being developed.

While overtly destructive leadership behaviors are easy to spot, this conversation focuses on something more subtle — the Accidental Diminisher. These are leaders with good intentions who unknowingly over-function, over-direct, over-protect, or over-communicate in ways that limit their team’s ownership and growth.

The episode begins by grounding listeners in the concept of over-functioning — stepping in too quickly, solving too much, and unintentionally creating dependency. From there, Josh and John walk through nine accidental diminisher tendencies, including the Rescuer, Idea Fountain, Rapid Responder, Optimist, Strategist, Perfectionist, Protector, Pace Setter, and Always On leader.

Rather than shaming these tendencies, the conversation reframes them as anxiety-driven postures that often show up under pressure. When stress rises, leaders default to familiar patterns — rescuing instead of empowering, answering instead of asking, pushing pace instead of developing capacity.

The through-line is clear: leadership is not about doing more. It is about multiplying others. When leaders dominate space, control outcomes, or protect too much, they unintentionally shrink the very people they are meant to develop.

This episode invites middle managers to examine their own default tendencies and make intentional adjustments that create more ownership, more debate, and more growth across their teams.

00:00 – Coffee Mugs and Reconnecting to Presence Light opening before transitioning back to leadership themes.

05:00 – Introducing Multipliers vs. Diminishers The core framework from Liz Wiseman’s research.

08:30 – Over-Functioning Explained Why leaders do too much and how it creates dependency.

12:30 – The Rescuer, Idea Fountain, and Rapid Responder How good intentions quietly limit team ownership.

22:00 – The Optimist and Strategist When positivity and certainty suppress debate and innovation.

27:00 – The Perfectionist and Protector High standards and shielding behaviors that discourage growth.

32:00 – Pace Setter and Always On Leadership How intensity and presence can crowd out others.

36:00 – Homework and Reflection Identifying your dominant accidental diminisher tendency.

Most diminishing leadership habits stem from good intentions, not bad motives.

Over-functioning creates under-functioning in others.

Rescuing, over-responding, or over-directing may feel helpful but often reduce ownership.

High standards are healthy; perfectionism that removes autonomy is not.

Moving fast is not the same as developing others.

Multiplying leadership requires space, patience, and disciplined restraint.

Under pressure, your default tendencies are amplified — awareness is essential.

Identify which of the nine accidental diminisher tendencies resonates most with you. Be honest. Notice when it shows up — especially under stress or urgency. Then choose one small behavioral adjustment to practice this week. You might wait before responding, speak last in a meeting, resist rescuing, or invite debate before deciding.

Leadership multiplication begins not by adding more techniques, but by subtracting habits that shrink others.

Multipliers by Liz Wiseman The Wiseman Group (wisemangroup.com)

Hope matters. It is human and necessary. But as Brandi explains, hope without systems creates uneven performance, pockets of excellence, and persistent gaps. Leaders often assume shared standards without clearly defining them. The result is inconsistency—and inconsistency erodes trust.

Dr. Chin challenges leaders to move from aspiration to operational clarity. Values like excellence, respect, and equity only shape culture when they are translated into observable behaviors and reinforced consistently. When expectations are vague, accountability feels personal or punitive. When expectations are clear and upheld, accountability becomes cultural and developmental.

The conversation also addresses resistance. Pushback against accountability is rarely about defiance; it is often rooted in fear—fear of failure, exposure, or loss of autonomy. Effective leaders respond not with punishment, but with consistency, coaching, and steady reinforcement of shared standards.

This episode serves as both a conversation and an invitation. If you are serious about improving quality, building trust, and strengthening consistency in your organization, Dr. Chin’s work offers a practical roadmap. You can learn more about her book, consulting, and leadership resources at brandichin.com.

00:00 – Introducing Dr. Brandi Chin and the Accountability Conversation Why this topic matters for leaders today.

06:00 – Hope vs. Systems The danger of relying on intention without operational clarity.

14:30 – Translating Values into Action How to turn aspirational language into measurable behaviors.

26:00 – Follow-Through and Consistency Why reinforcement defines leadership credibility.

37:00 – Resistance and Fear Understanding pushback and responding with steadiness.

45:00 – Accountability as the Path to Quality Why consistency separates average organizations from excellent ones.

Where are you relying on hope instead of clarity? Identify one expectation that needs stronger definition and follow-through this week. If this conversation resonated, explore Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin’s work at brandichin.com and consider how her framework could strengthen accountability in your organization.

The core insight is simple: presence is not something you add on. It emerges when you remove what is getting in the way. Josh reintroduces the concept of de-envelopment—a term Andrew Robinson brought into conversation—challenging leaders to strip away reactive habits rather than stack new techniques. When anxiety rises in meetings, conflict, or uncertainty, leaders default into predictable postures. Some over-function, over-explain, and hustle for affirmation. Others defer too quickly, distance themselves from decisions, or avoid discomfort. Still others push agendas forcefully, mistaking control for confidence.

Throughout the episode, these patterns are connected to real leadership moments: rescuing instead of empowering, over-talking to secure credibility, withdrawing under pressure, or bulldozing conversations in the name of decisiveness. Each response is understandable, but each reduces presence and erodes trust.

The conversation also names practical barriers such as distraction, physical absence, tone, lack of preparation, and disorganization. Presence is both internal and external. It requires emotional regulation and self-awareness, but also visible engagement and structured leadership behavior.

The episode closes with practical strategies for cultivating presence in daily leadership: speaking last, limiting airtime, repairing strained relationships early, structuring meetings around learning, and embracing silence. Presence, they remind listeners, is not mystical. It is disciplined, relational, and built through consistent practice.

Presence grows when leaders remove anxiety-driven reactions rather than adding performance techniques.

Over-functioning and under-functioning are two common but opposite barriers to presence.

Agenda-driven behavior often signals insecurity more than confidence.

Distraction, tone, and lack of preparation communicate disengagement quickly.

Presence requires emotional regulation and visible leadership discipline.

This week, identify your default anxiety response. Do you over-explain, defer too quickly, push harder, or withdraw? Choose one strategy from this episode to counter it. Speak last in your next meeting. Limit your airtime. Repair a strained relationship early. Shift a goal from execution to learning. Presence grows when you intentionally remove what blocks it.

00:00 – Recap: What Is Presence? Revisiting the foundation before examining what disrupts it.

05:30 – Reintroducing De-Envelopment Stripping away anxiety-driven reactions instead of layering on new techniques.

12:00 – Over-Functioning and Hustling for Worth How over-explaining and rescuing undermine presence.

19:30 – Distancing and Avoiding Discomfort The subtle cost of under-functioning and chronic deference.

27:00 – Agenda-Driven Leadership When control replaces collaboration.

34:30 – Practical Strategies to Strengthen Presence Speaking last, limiting airtime, repairing early, and prioritizing learning.

----more----

Growing Yourself Up by Jenny Brown Bowen Family Systems Theory Multipliers by Liz Wiseman David Whyte essays "Time"  The PIQ Perspective – josh482.substack.com

The conversation builds on recent discussions about influence, self-preservation, and development, grounding the idea of presence in lived experience rather than theory. Josh introduces a powerful reflection from poet and philosopher David Whyte, connecting presence to gravity and mass—the idea that true presence slows time, opens possibility, and invites others toward deeper engagement rather than resistance.

John and Josh unpack how presence shows up in everyday leadership moments: listening without rushing to respond, resisting the urge to fix or dominate, and creating space for others to step forward at their own pace. Through a personal story about parenting and coaching, John illustrates how walls of self-preservation—fear, ego, and the need to prove something—can block presence, and how removing those walls creates growth and confidence.

The episode also clarifies what presence is not. It is not positional authority, charisma without care, physical proximity without intention, or oversharing personal struggle in ways that burden others. Presence is not paralysis or endless collaboration, nor is it speed for the sake of productivity. Instead, presence is grounded, curious, and disciplined. It allows leaders to listen deeply, make decisions confidently, and move teams forward together.

The conversation closes by emphasizing that presence is not a switch you flip, but a continual internal practice. In a culture that rewards constant motion and urgency, choosing presence is countercultural work. Leaders who cultivate it slow time for others, reduce unnecessary friction, and create the conditions for trust, development, and meaningful progress.

00:00 – Welcome and Framing the Conversation Josh and John set the stage for a deeper exploration of leadership presence and why it matters now.

03:15 – Influence, Self-Preservation, and a Personal Leadership Story A reflection on walls of self-preservation and how fear and ego show up in leadership and parenting.

09:45 – Defining Presence and Why It Changes Everything Introducing presence as gravity that slows time and invites others toward growth.

13:30 – Presence, Time, and the Work of Deep Listening Exploring how presence creates flow, reduces tension, and accelerates real progress.

18:45 – What Presence Is Not Clarifying common misconceptions around charisma, authority, visibility, and oversharing.

32:00 – Presence in Meetings, Decisions, and Daily Leadership Why meetings, priorities, and one-to-ones either create presence or quietly destroy it.

44:00 – Reflection and Homework Practical guidance for becoming more present with priorities or people this week.

This week, identify one place where your presence matters most right now. It may be a key priority that needs focused attention, or a person who needs deeper listening and understanding. Choose one and be deliberate. Slow yourself down. Ask better questions. Notice whether time feels different—whether tension eases, clarity increases, or progress accelerates. That shift is your signal that presence is taking root.

David Whyte, Time and Consolations David Brooks, How to Know a Person Leadership Limbo frameworks on presence, influence, and developing others

Read more about Andrew's work at www.andrewfrobinson.com and read his work at https://andrewfrobinson.substack.com/ and be sure to follow his exciting new venture, Oxygen!

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo 03:17 Introducing Andrew Robinson and His Work 04:50 The Launch of Oxygen: A New Approach to Leadership Development 08:24 Challenging the Management Mindset 19:15 The Etymology of Management and Its Implications 29:05 The Intersection of AI and Human Development 30:17 Practical Applications of Oxygen's Approach 34:31 Questions for Leaders to Reflect On 39:11 Final Thoughts and Reflections

leadership, management, development, organizational growth, self-awareness, presence, human potential, leadership mindset, Oxygen, Andrew Robinson

• Leadership is about embracing discomfort and self-awareness.
• Building relationships in the workplace requires trust and clarity.
• Kindness is more impactful than mere niceness in professional settings.
• Feedback is essential for growth and trust in relationships.
• Self-preservation can hinder effective influence and communication.
• Cynicism often arises from fear of vulnerability and loss.
• Empowering others is more effective than rescuing them.
• Understanding individual communication styles is crucial for influence.
• Balancing character and competence is key to effective leadership.
• Good leadership involves making space for tension and growth.

You can find an image of The Influence Model here: https://share.google/rWqf9vR40eVEZFXJX) 

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo 02:53 The Power of Influence 04:41 Understanding Relationships in Leadership 07:55 The Difference Between Kindness and Niceness 11:42 Influence and Self-Preservation 15:38 Navigating Cynicism and Trust 19:03 Understanding Cynicism and Self-Preservation 23:16 Influence in Manager-Employee Relationships 29:02 Balancing Character and Competence 35:16 The Role of Self-Preservation in Leadership

The conversation begins by distinguishing influence from power. Josh and John argue that modern organizations can no longer rely on positional authority or top-down control to drive results. As work becomes faster, flatter, and more relational, managers must learn how to influence through trust, credibility, and care. Influence, they emphasize, is inseparable from development. Leaders who approach management as a way to grow people, rather than extract output, are far more likely to earn followership and sustain performance.

The episode introduces a set of nine common influence styles, not as a hierarchy of good and bad behaviors, but as tools that can be used wisely or poorly depending on motive, context, and overuse. From data-driven rational appeals to relational, values-based, and personal appeals, Josh and John unpack how each style works, where it can be effective, and how it can break down when leaders rely on it too heavily or without self-awareness.

Throughout the discussion, they return to a central theme: posture matters. Influence that is rooted in control, avoidance, or self-protection is often sensed, even if it sounds supportive on the surface. By contrast, influence grounded in genuine care for another person’s growth creates trust, accountability, and learning. The episode challenges managers to examine not just how they influence, but why.

The conversation closes with a reframing of influence as an ongoing practice rather than a momentary tactic. Effective influence begins long before a decision is announced. It is built through curiosity, listening, understanding people’s motivations, and asking better questions. When leaders invest in knowing their people and their organization deeply, influence becomes more natural, adaptive, and human.

• Influence is more effective than authority in modern organizations, especially for middle managers operating without full control or decision-making power.
• Leadership influence is inseparable from development. People are more likely to follow leaders they respect, trust, and believe are invested in their growth.
• There are multiple influence styles, and no single approach works in every situation. Over-reliance on one style often creates blind spots.
• Posture matters as much as technique. Influence rooted in care and accountability feels different than influence driven by control or convenience.
• Asking thoughtful questions is often more powerful than issuing directives when it comes to motivating and aligning others.

Take time this week to reflect on your default influence style. Consider which approaches you rely on most and where that reliance may be limiting your effectiveness. Identify one influence style you tend to underuse and experiment with it intentionally in an upcoming conversation. Pay attention not just to outcomes, but to how people respond and what it reveals about trust and connection.

The conversation centers on a striking reality. While middle managers have the greatest influence on employee engagement, only a small percentage of them report being engaged themselves. This disconnect points to a systemic issue rather than individual failure. Managers are expected to execute strategy without shaping it, lead people without sufficient support, and drive engagement while carrying increasing pressure from all sides.

Josh and John challenge how organizations typically respond to engagement problems. Too often, companies bypass managers by adding new initiatives, surveys, or programs instead of investing in manager development. This approach compounds the problem by increasing workload and stress without strengthening leadership capacity.

They also explore why traditional management training falls short. Many programs focus on process and compliance while neglecting the identity shift required to move from individual contributor to people developer. Leadership, they argue, is less about passing along directives and more about cultivating trust, clarity, and growth.

The episode closes with a call for both personal responsibility and organizational reflection. Healthy workplaces are built when managers are developed, supported, and trusted to do the relational work leadership requires. This conversation sets the foundation for Season Two, which will move from diagnosing the problem to offering practical solutions.

• Middle managers play the most influential role in engagement but are often the least supported and least developed.
• Engagement issues are rarely solved through broad initiatives and are most effectively addressed through manager development.
• Transactional cultures undermine trust, while relational leadership builds sustainable performance.
• Psychological safety for managers is essential for psychological safety across teams.
• Leadership development requires mindset and identity growth, not just technical skill building.

Before setting new goals this year, pause and assess whether you—or the managers you support—are truly equipped for the role being asked of you. Reflect on clarity of expectations, access to development, and whether people leadership is being treated as a core responsibility or an afterthought. Start there before adding new initiatives.

• Gallup workplace engagement research 
• Harvard Business Review research on psychological safety

We know that organizations who value development approach it systematically. It cannot be an idea, concept or belief by itself. It requires a paradigm and framework.

If you are going into 2026 with goals for greater success in people development, this is a must-listen.

Starting the week of January 12th, we'll be sharing out new episodes from Season 2!

Original Episode Description Below:

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram.

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

1. Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event. True growth is woven into daily leadership, not reserved for workshops or annual reviews.

2. Everyone learns differently. What worked for you may not work for them. Development requires empathy, flexibility, and intentionality.

3. The Four Stages of Development:

   • Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

   • Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

   • Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

   • Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

4. Beware the “pit of despair.” When confidence collapses, leaders must support—not rescue—those they lead.

5. Don’t get stuck in the “green room.” Competence can lead to complacency; stretch high performers by challenging them to multiply others.

6. Your mindset still drives your method. Even with a strong framework, self-preservation and ego can derail development. Stay other-oriented.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

• Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

• Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

  • More modeling and demonstration?

  • Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

  • Space to practice with support?

  • Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

• Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

• The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

• Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

• Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

• The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

As we spend time with family and friends during this holiday season, ask yourself, am I taking part in conversations in which I'm trying to be interesting or interested in others?

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode, Josh and John take a second pass at one of leadership’s most defining skills — communication. Moving beyond what we say to how and why we say it, they explore the motives, tendencies, and patterns that shape our words and impact our teams. Through real examples and archetypes, they help listeners identify what drives their communication habits and how self-awareness transforms connection and clarity.

• Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them.

• Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions.

• Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives.

• Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention.

• Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will.

• “Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?”

• “Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.”

• “You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.”

• “Communication equals transmission plus receiving.”

Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down.

1. Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.).

2. Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove?

3. Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication.

4. Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

If you haven't listened to this episode it's a great way to ground in the purpose of our show and understand the vision for what we're aiming to do.

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

• Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

• Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

• Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

The Peace Index invites leaders to pause and take a holistic snapshot of their current reality across five interconnected areas: place, provision, personal health, people, and purpose. Josh explains that leadership breakdowns often begin long before performance slips appear. Mental fog, emotional reactivity, and chronic stress are usually signals that one or more of these areas is out of alignment.

John adds that the value of the tool is not in perfection or scoring well, but in awareness. Leaders are often surprised by what rises to the surface when they slow down long enough to notice their environment, relationships, financial stressors, physical habits, and sense of meaning. The inventory becomes a mirror that helps leaders identify where peace is present and where strain has quietly accumulated.

The conversation also explores how leadership culture often minimizes mental and emotional health, encouraging leaders to push through discomfort rather than address root causes. Josh and John challenge that norm, offering a different approach: start small, respond intentionally, and restore order where you have the most control. Sustainable leadership is not built through constant optimization, but through simple, repeatable practices that create stability over time.

The episode closes by reinforcing a core idea of Leadership Limbo: leaders who tend to their own health lead with greater calm, empathy, and effectiveness. When leaders are grounded and aligned, they create healthier systems, stronger relationships, and teams that thrive rather than burn out.

Leadership health is holistic, not just physical. A leader’s environment, relationships, resources, and sense of purpose shape how they show up just as much as sleep or exercise.

The Peace Index works best as a routine. Its power comes from being revisited regularly, not from a single moment of reflection.

Place matters more than most leaders admit. Physical spaces, digital clutter, and environmental chaos can quietly drain energy and focus.

Provision affects peace. Financial stress or scarcity thinking often spills into decision-making, relationships, and leadership posture.

Personal health is about progress, not perfection. Small, consistent habits matter more than ideal routines that never happen.

People are central to leadership health. Disconnection, unresolved tension, or lack of community reduces capacity and resilience.

Purpose takes the longest to address but has the deepest impact. When meaning feels misaligned, leaders feel it everywhere.

Mental health is a whole-system signal. Feeling mentally “off” is often a cue that one or more life categories needs attention.

Set aside five minutes this week to walk yourself through the Peace Index. Reflect honestly on your place, provision, personal health, people, and purpose. Notice which area feels most strained right now. Choose one small, concrete action that would restore a sense of peace or order in that area. The goal is not to fix everything, but to take one step that increases clarity and capacity.

GiANT Worldwide Peace Index Framework (You can read more in here in a previous blog Josh wrote about this and see the image of the tool itself)

The hosts explore how leaders often think of health as something to “get to later,” somewhere after the deadlines, decision-making, or team management. But leadership does not pause so you can get healthy. Health is the basis from which leadership decisions, influence, connection, and clarity flow. When you are not healthy, you are more reactive, more stressed, more scattered, and less able to show up with the calm, grounded presence your team needs.

Josh and John walk through why health matters both for the leader and for the team. Health is not only about self-preservation. When you are at your best, you are more attuned to the people you lead, better able to sense their stress, notice their energy, and create conditions where collective performance feels sustainable rather than depleting. A healthy leader models integration rather than martyrdom, and this subtle modeling creates permission and clarity for others to pursue healthy, integrated habits as well.

They also unpack why leaders often neglect health, not intentionally but accidentally. Busyness, pressure, and habit shape our daily operating system, and when life gets chaotic we default to whatever has been baked into our history: overwork, proving ourselves, numbing distractions, and performance behaviors that feel urgent in the moment but quietly erode long-term well-being. The episode explores how industries, expectations, ego, and culture normalize unhealthy rhythms and turn exhaustion into a badge of honor.

The conversation ends with a clear worldview: leadership is relational, and health is relational. When leaders are at their best, they can perceive what their teams need, stay grounded in complexity, and create conditions where people thrive rather than survive. The episode sets up next week’s conversation, which will focus entirely on practical strategies, healthy rhythms, and crowd-sourced examples from listeners.

Health is multidimensional. Leadership requires more than physical stamina. It requires curiosity, spiritual grounding, mental clarity, communal belonging, and the emotional steadiness that makes space for others.

A leader’s health creates a ripple effect. When you are grounded, clear, attuned, and integrated, your team feels safer, more focused, and more confident. When you are depleted or reactive, your team absorbs more than you realize and begins compensating for you, resenting you, or disorganizing around you.

Most leaders neglect health accidentally. When pressure mounts, we revert to old habits: over-functioning, proving, staying late, numbing, hustling for worth, taking on too much, or confusing urgency for leadership. These patterns feel productive in the moment but undermine presence, clarity, and relational trust.

Healthy leadership is integrative, not comparative. It is not about being healthier than everyone else or earning a wellness score. It is about aligning your personal practices, relationships, and rhythms so that leadership feels sustainable rather than sacrificial.

Work-life balance is often the wrong frame. Integration—connecting your identity, well-being, work, purpose, and relationships—is a healthier lens than trying to keep them separate or competing.

Reflect on one question this week: What is the single biggest barrier to becoming the healthiest version of yourself as a leader? Share it with the show so Josh and John can surface real examples from listeners and address them directly in next week’s episode.

You are also invited to share one strategy you currently use that genuinely supports your health and positively affects your team. These practices will be highlighted in the next conversation, creating a community-driven library of ideas.

Brené Brown — Dare to Lead (particularly the framework on armored vs. daring leadership)

The hosts unpack what it looks like to approach development with openness rather than defensiveness, curiosity rather than cynicism. They revisit the pursuer–distancer dynamic from previous episodes, this time flipping the lens: instead of chasing reluctant team members, how can you stop distancing yourself from the people trying to help you grow?

The conversation dives into the role of ego, exploring how skepticism (“they don’t understand my work”) and excuses (“my boss doesn’t develop me”) often mask insecurity or fear. Josh and John walk through ways to reframe these stories, run small mindset experiments, and re-engage in genuine learning.

They also emphasize humble curiosity—not asking questions to prove a point, but asking to discover something new. Alongside this mindset, they talk about the importance of advocating for what you need and building a collaborative relationship with your manager.

The episode closes with a seasonal reminder about gratitude—both expressing and receiving it—as one of the most powerful yet underused tools for sustaining healthy development relationships.

1. Being developed is a choice. You can’t control your manager’s skill level, but you can control your posture and curiosity.
2. Watch for cynicism and defensiveness. Phrases like “they don’t get it” or “this won’t work for me” usually reveal ego, not truth.
3. Run the reframe experiment. Instead of “my boss doesn’t care,” try “my boss might care in ways I don’t yet see.” Look for small evidence of their effort.
4. Development is a two-way relationship. Managers can’t read your mind—advocate for what you need, clarify what helps, and initiate feedback loops.
5. Model what you expect from others. You can’t give what you don’t possess. Showing up as a learner sets the tone for your team.
6. Gratitude multiplies development. Leaders who express genuine appreciation build trust, retention, and resilience in their teams.

Reflect on your posture toward being developed.

• Are you open, curious, and receptive—or defensive, cynical, and closed?
• Identify one relationship where you might be distancing yourself from feedback or growth.
• This week, take one small step to re-engage:
  • Ask a question instead of making an assumption.
  • Invite feedback rather than waiting for it.
  • Express gratitude to someone who has invested in your growth.
• Lean toward curiosity and connection—it’s where learning begins.

• How to Know a Person — David Brooks The Coaching Habit — Michael Bungay Stanier
• Humble Inquiry — Edgar H. Schein
• The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram
• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram
• Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

The hosts dig into two essential relationship dynamics that can either fuel or frustrate development:

• Pursuer vs. Distancer, where one person chases growth while the other avoids it, and
• Over-functioner vs. Under-functioner, where a leader tries to “save” others or a learner waits passively to be rescued.

Drawing from David Brooks’ book How to Know a Person, they discuss what it means to practice accompaniment—walking alongside someone rather than solving problems for them. They pair this with practical frameworks from The Coaching Habit (Michael Bungay Stanier) and Humble Inquiry (Edgar Schein), showing how asking the right questions can rebalance responsibility and deepen learning.

The episode then transitions into “gradual release”—a core concept in education that applies powerfully to leadership. Josh and John break down each stage of the model (“I do, you watch” → “I do, you help” → “You do, I help” → “You do, I watch”), explaining how leaders can adjust their coaching, feedback, and proximity as people grow in competence and confidence. Along the way, they tackle the tension between personalizing learning and maintaining accountability, and remind listeners that development requires both structure and stretch.

1. Accompaniment builds trust and ownership. True development happens when leaders walk with others, not ahead of them.
2. Beware of over- or under-functioning. Over-functioners rescue; under-functioners retreat. Both limit growth.
3. Ask more, tell less. Use inquiry to invite thinking and responsibility—especially as people gain competence.
4. Name the criteria for success. Learners need to know what “good” looks like before they can reach it.
5. Gradual release is the art of letting go. Effective leaders fade their support as skill and confidence rise.
6. Balance personalization with accountability. Adapt your approach, but don’t avoid necessary discomfort—growth lives there.
7. Feedback loops sustain progress. Check for understanding early and often. Real-time coaching prevents drift.

Return to the team member you identified last week in the Development Square exercise. Ask yourself:

• Are you over-functioning or under-functioning in your support?
• Are you telling too much—or asking too little?

Identify one way to rebalance your dynamic this week—whether it’s using a coaching question, creating clearer criteria for success, or scheduling a real-time feedback moment.

• How to Know a Person — David Brooks
• The Coaching Habit — Michael Bungay Stanier
• Humble Inquiry — Edgar H. Schein
• The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram
• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram
• Concept: “Gradual Release of Responsibility” (Pearson & Gallagher, 1983)

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

1. Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event. True growth is woven into daily leadership, not reserved for workshops or annual reviews.

2. Everyone learns differently. What worked for you may not work for them. Development requires empathy, flexibility, and intentionality.

3. The Four Stages of Development:

   • Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

   • Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

   • Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

   • Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

4. Beware the “pit of despair.” When confidence collapses, leaders must support—not rescue—those they lead.

5. Don’t get stuck in the “green room.” Competence can lead to complacency; stretch high performers by challenging them to multiply others.

6. Your mindset still drives your method. Even with a strong framework, self-preservation and ego can derail development. Stay other-oriented.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

• Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

• Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

  • More modeling and demonstration?

  • Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

  • Space to practice with support?

  • Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

• Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

• The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

• Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

• Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

• The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

The conversation explores how easy it is for leaders to slip into a reactive To Me posture, especially in seasons of uncertainty or self-preservation. From there, they highlight how shifting toward By Me opens the door to agency, responsibility, and creativity—breaking the cycle of blame or helplessness.

Josh and John also reflect on higher levels of leadership consciousness—operating Through Me or As Me—and what it means to move from control to presence, from tension to groundedness, and from reactivity to intentionality. They share personal stories, real-life examples, and moments of self-awareness that reveal the subtle but powerful nature of mindset shifts.

The episode ultimately reminds leaders that developing others begins with developing ourselves. How we interpret our circumstances shapes how we show up, how we listen, and how we build capacity in the people we influence.

1. Most leaders operate in “To Me” more than they realize. This reactive mindset amplifies stress and reduces agency, setting the tone for how we lead and develop others.

2. Shifting to “By Me” unlocks creativity and ownership. The combination of responsibility, curiosity, and intentional choice breaks the Drama Triangle and restores empowerment.

3. “Through Me” and “As Me” represent deeper, grounded presence. These states help leaders move from controlling outcomes to participating in them with clarity and calm.

4. Self-preservation keeps leaders from developing others. When fear, fatigue, or insecurity take over, development gets replaced by protection, avoidance, or withdrawal.

5. Small, consistent reframes create meaningful change. Leaders don’t need enlightenment—they need awareness in the moment and a willingness to take the next small step.

Identify one challenge you’re facing right now—something that feels heavy, unfair, frustrating, or stuck.

• Write down the story you are currently telling yourself about it (the “To Me” version).

• Then choose one small shift toward a “By Me” mindset.

  • What question could you ask?

  • What action is within your control?

  • What perspective could open up agency instead of helplessness?

Keep it small. Keep it honest. Keep it doable.

• Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, Kaley Warner Klemp

• The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

• What About Bob? — Frank Oz (Director)

Drawing from the Drama Triangle framework, they unpack three common leadership archetypes that show up under stress: the Persecutor (Villain), the Rescuer (Hero), and the Victim. Each has good intentions but can end up disempowering others, creating dependency, or spreading frustration. Through stories, humor, and reflection, they reveal what’s really happening beneath these patterns and how to shift toward healthier, growth-oriented postures:

• The Challenger (instead of the Persecutor)

• The Coach (instead of the Rescuer)

• The Creator (instead of the Victim)

The episode reframes development as the act of fighting for others’ highest good. It challenges leaders to move from control to empowerment, from rescuing to equipping, and from “woe is me” to “what can we create together?”

1. Awareness is the first act of development. Every leader can slip into the Drama Triangle. The goal isn’t perfection—it’s noticing when it happens and choosing a better response.

2. Persecutors become Challengers. Replace micromanagement and blame with curiosity and accountability. Challenge others to own their growth.

3. Rescuers become Coaches. Stop over-helping. Use questions and patience to guide others toward their own solutions instead of fixing for them.

4. Victims become Creators. Trade helplessness for agency. Acknowledge the challenge, then focus on what’s within your power to move forward.

5. Leadership development is love in action. Great leaders don’t remove struggle—they walk with others through it, building confidence and autonomy along the way.

Reflect on one person you currently lead, coach, or collaborate with.

• Which of the three Drama Triangle tendencies (Persecutor, Rescuer, Victim) do you most often fall into with them?

• What would it look like to flip that pattern this week—by becoming a Challenger, Coach, or Creator instead?

• Notice how that shift changes both your mindset and their engagement.

If you’re not managing people right now, try this reflection with a teammate, family member, or friend. The same dynamics apply everywhere we influence others.

• The Drama Triangle (Stephen Karpman) – the foundational model discussed in this episode.

• Radical Candor by Kim Scott – on the balance between care and challenge (“ruinous empathy” connects to the Rescuer pattern).

• A Failure of Nerve by Edwin H. Friedman – referenced by Josh for its insight on leadership courage and the “non-anxious presence.”

• The 100X Leader by Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram – for the “Sherpa mindset” of fighting for the highest good of others.

Together, they unpack how leadership begins with self-awareness and healing — and how that inner work ripples outward into teams, organizations, and communities. Michael shares stories from his own journey as a middle manager navigating conflicting expectations, and how mistakes, reflection, and intentionality helped him transform his approach to leadership.

The conversation explores themes of affirmation, mindfulness, and manifestation, inviting leaders to align their “future self” with present actions. Michael challenges the idea that leadership is about control or charisma, instead defining it as removing barriers so others can thrive.

From burnout to belonging, from self-denial to authenticity, this episode reminds us that the most sustainable and equitable leadership starts with loving ourselves well — so we can lead others with compassion, presence, and purpose.

Check out Michael's work at https://equitablesolutions.net/ and follow him on LinkedIn as well. You can find his book Easy Equity for purchase on his site, too. 

Key Takeaways Include:

• Leadership is about supporting your team, not just producing results.
• Finding joy requires intentionality and can be found in small moments.
• Authentic relationships are crucial for leveraging team strengths.
• Self-affirmation is key to effective leadership and personal growth.
• Manifestation involves aligning current actions with future goals.
• Emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than intellectual intelligence (IQ) in leadership.
• Burnout often stems from misalignment with personal values and overextension.
• Leaders should prioritize self-care to avoid resentment and burnout.
• Mistakes are opportunities for growth and should be owned by leaders.
• Creating a positive environment starts with self-love and validation.

They discuss the ripple effects of poor listening on trust, culture, and team engagement, and how small changes—like a pause before responding or a quick summary of what you heard—can completely reshape how people experience being led. Together, they reframe listening as a core leadership discipline that drives clarity, confidence, and connection.

Key Takeaways:

• Silence communicates attentiveness and respect.

• Summarizing before responding builds alignment and trust.

• Leaders model active listening by removing distractions and creating space for others’ voices.

Homework for Listeners: Take a few minutes this week to complete a quick Active Listening Audit. Rate yourself 1–5 on each statement and identify one area to strengthen.

1. I let others finish speaking before I respond.

2. I summarize what I heard before offering my view.

3. I ask open-ended questions that deepen understanding.

4. I minimize distractions—no screens, no multitasking.

5. I clarify what the other person needs: empathy or solutions.

6. I pause before speaking to fully process what I’ve heard.

7. I follow up when needed to close the communication loop.

Reflection Prompt: When was the last time you felt truly heard—and what might it take to create that experience for others?

Mentioned in This Episode: The Communication Code – Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram, GiANT Worldwide

They open with reflections on personal rhythms, learning events, and the importance of walking (for knees and for clarity) before diving into the art of setting conditions for effective communication. John shares insights from Simon Sinek’s “Know Your Why” and The Atlantic’s piece on distracted parenting, illustrating how modern distractions erode our ability to truly listen and receive.

Josh introduces the five core intentions of communication — to care, celebrate, critique, clarify, and collaborate — and how naming these purposes can transform meetings, relationships, and team culture. Together, they break down how misalignment between intention and perception can derail trust, and how explicit communication framing helps teams stay connected and emotionally attuned.

• Communication is not complete without both transmission and reception.

• Setting the conditions for communication (minimizing distraction, clarifying intent) is foundational.

• The five communication codes—Care, Celebrate, Critique, Clarify, Collaborate—help leaders name the whybehind what they say.

• Explicitly naming your communication intent improves trust and reduces misinterpretation.

• Celebration and care are often undervalued but essential forms of communication that sustain team health.

In your next team meeting or 1:1, name the type of communication you’re using:

• Are you collaborating, clarifying, or critiquing?

• Are you showing care or celebration?

Use this awareness to align your intent with how others receive it. And for an extra challenge — find a way to intentionally celebrate someone or something this week.

How often do you name your intention before communicating — and how might doing so change the way your message lands?

• Simon Sinek – “Know Your Why” (video clip)

• The Atlantic (2018) – “The Dangers of Distracted Parenting”

• The Communication Code – Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram, GiANT Worldwide

“Your job as a leader isn’t just to say what you mean — it’s to make sure it lands with your team.” – Josh Hugo

• Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them.

• Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions.

• Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives.

• Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention.

• Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will.

• “Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?”

• “Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.”

• “You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.”

• “Communication equals transmission plus receiving.”

Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down.

1. Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.).

2. Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove?

3. Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication.

4. Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

The conversation unpacks a simple but powerful formula:

Communication = Transmission + Reception.

It’s not enough to just speak or listen—both have to work in tandem for true understanding.

Josh and John frame today’s tension as the gap between accidental communication and intentional communication. Too often, leaders over-invest in the intentional while overlooking how much influence their “accidental” moments - or overall lack of self-awareness and intentionality about their communication - can have on team trust, alignment, and culture.

Along the way, they share personal reflections on their own communication gaps—Josh’s tendency to over-talk as a verbal processor, John’s habit of letting facial expressions betray his thoughts—and highlight why building self-awareness is essential.

They also introduce practical tools, linked below:

• Blindspotting – A model for uncovering motives and tendencies that drive leadership behaviors.

• The Five Voices – A personality-based framework for understanding your natural communication style and how others receive it.

The big takeaway? Leaders need to narrow the gap between formal and informal communication by increasing self-awareness and choosing intentionality in both. Communication is the foundation of alignment, execution, and trust—and without it, even the best strategies fall flat.

Resources:

• Free 5 Voice Assessment and Report:  Click Here
• Blindspotting: Click Here

Josh shares insights from Edwin Friedman’s A Failure of Nerve and the concept of self-differentiation, while John highlights the practical realities of leading through both collaboration and decisive direction. They also explore the Sherpa mentality from The 100X Leader, reframing leadership success as helping others reach the summit rather than chasing individual achievement.

The conversation surfaces four key relational tensions managers face with their teams:

• Transparency vs. Discretion

• Friendship/Friendliness vs. Professionalism

• Collaboration vs. Decision-Making

• Advocacy vs. Directive Management

Josh and John remind listeners that effective leaders don’t settle on one side of these spectrums—they learn to toggle with intentionality. The episode closes with a reflective exercise using two “thermometers”: one measuring how well you’re performing, and the other how well you’re leading performers. The challenge: notice gaps and identify where your leadership toggle might need to shift.

Resources Mentioned:

Feel free to check out two books referenced in this episode, as well:

• A Failure of Nerve, by Edwin Friedman 
• The 100x Leader,  by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

Josh and John explore what makes this relationship healthy and productive, starting with the foundation of trust and moving into practical elements like:

• High Support + High Challenge: Creating a liberating environment through balanced accountability and encouragement.

• Intentional Two-Way Communication: Ensuring not just that information is transmitted, but also truly received and understood.

• Autonomy + Accountability: Striking the right balance between independence and responsibility to your boss.

• Mutual Belief: Not just expecting your manager to believe in you, but actively showing belief in them.

• Managing Up: Bringing forward the realities of your team so your manager has the visibility needed to lead effectively.

They also highlight common pitfalls that can derail this relationship—like unclear communication systems, falling into a “what have you done for me lately” mindset, or passively waiting to be developed—and offer strategies to avoid them.

The episode closes with practical reflection tools for listeners:

1. Conduct a two-way communication audit to identify and close gaps.

2. Apply the Red-Yellow-Green framework to your current projects to clarify decision-making authority and opportunities for growth in autonomy.

Several helpful resources were referenced in this episode.  See the links below for more information:

Cory Scheer's book: Closing the Trust Gap. 

Patrick Lencioni's book: The Advantage.

The conversation covers four key dynamics:

• The weight of authority – how new leaders experience both the responsibility and temptations of positional power.

• Stress and tendencies – why under pressure, managers often revert to old habits, and how intentional development can prevent missteps.

• “TIDKWIDT” (The I Don’t Know What I Did Today challenge) – the common struggle of defining success when the work shifts from doing tasks to guiding people.

• Vertical shifts in relationships – the reality that becoming “the manager” alters how peers and teams perceive and engage with you.

Josh and John offer practical tools to navigate these changes, including the “Leader Mirror” (a framework for reflecting on reactivity, intentionality, and consistency) and the importance of building a trusted circle to provide honest feedback. They also invite listeners to share their own experiences with identity shifts in leadership, setting up future episodes on relationships with managers and direct reports.

As always, the episode blends lived experience with practical strategies, making space for the tension of leadership while equipping mid-level leaders to grow with awareness and purpose.

The conversation dives into the tension that arises when managers don’t fully agree with a vision. Josh shares a framework for self-reflection through the lens of self-preservation behaviors: asking What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? What am I trying to prove? John introduces the principle of “disagree and commit,” highlighting how leaders can create space for healthy debate, then unite in full commitment once a decision is made.

The episode closes with four practical takeaways for managers:

1. Internalize your organization’s vision so you can teach it.

2. Integrate vision into daily conversations and priorities.

3. Reflect on self-preservation tendencies that may cause resistance.

4. Disagree and commit to build trust, alignment, and follow-through.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

• Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

• Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

• Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dig into the realities of “the middle” in leadership—focusing especially on middle management. They frame leadership through three paradigms: being in the middle of the org chart, navigating career transitions, and balancing the internal work of leading yourself while leading others.

The conversation highlights the challenges and opportunities of middle management, from building credibility and shifting relationships, to getting results through others without falling into micromanagement. They also explore the tension of carrying out someone else’s vision, managing up while still supporting your team, and the identity shifts that come with moving into leadership roles.

The hosts emphasize that management and leadership are not separate—managers must lead, and when done well, the role can be life-giving. They leave listeners with a reflective “3-2-1” exercise:

• 3 leadership successes,

• 2 current opportunities/challenges,

• 1 action step for next week.

This episode offers practical insights, thought-provoking questions, and a reminder that leadership is about unlocking the potential of others while navigating the tensions of the in-between

Whether you’re an emerging leader, a middle manager, or a senior leader working to better support your team, this episode blends self-awareness, purpose-driven leadership, and practical tools to help you lead with clarity and influence. We share our personal journeys, reflect on lessons learned, and set the stage for the conversations and strategies to come.

Key topics in this episode:

• Defining “limbo” and the in-betwixt and in-between of leadership

• Why leadership in the middle is different—and critical

• How influence matters more than authority

• Balancing self-reflection with actionable leadership strategies

If you’ve ever felt caught between managing up and leading down, or you’re looking for ways to lead more effectively from where you are, this is where your journey starts.