Eager To Know

Recorded at WolfPup® Studios in Chicago, IL, U.S.A.

The Return of Dmitry

Mon, 26 May 2025 02:00:00 -0600

We welcome back Chicago-based author and artist Dmitry Samarov. He has had 3 books published since our last conversation, so we have lots to catch up on. Thank you for hanging with us on our 2025 Midwest podcast tour.

Dmitry’s Website: https://www.dmitrysamarov.com

Dmitry’s Podcast: https://huuno.dmitrysamarov.com

Recorded at WolfPup® Studios in Chicago, IL, U.S.A.

Timothy Allen & Art Array

Thu, 22 May 2025 10:41:23 -0600

Artist, curator, and personal chef Timothy Allen discusses a range of topics, including the balance between creating art for ourselves versus seeking validation from others, how learning to paint can alter our relationship with the world, and the creativity involved in cooking.

Ricky McEachern’s solo art exhibit, Art Array, will be on display at Next Stage Arts in Putney, Vermont, through August 10th, 2025. An opening reception and artist talk will be on May 29th, 6-8 pm.

https://www.nextstagearts.org

Intro music credit: The Fifth Life by Circus Marcus

David Jay Collins - Summerdale II

Wed, 07 May 2025 04:42:09 -0600

We are back with Chicago-based author David Jay Collins to discuss the second installment of the three-part Summerdale horror series. David is just the best guest. We hope to have him back when Summerdale III is released in the fall of 2025. His latest novel, Single & Cooking, is available on his website.

https://davidjaycollins.comp

Dmitry Samarov (Re-release)

Wed, 30 Apr 2025 05:53:01 -0600

My conversation with artist and author Dmitry Samarov. This is a great episode. good stuff here….

https://www.dmitrysamarov.com

Abstract

Tue, 29 Apr 2025 03:53:07 -0600

This is an exciting re-release, a compilation of my conversations with abstract painters. All of these artists are smart and talented with a keen sense of how we relate to the world around us. Be sure to check out the full Eager To Know episodes for all 5 of these artists:

Painter William Conger

Links to all 7 episodes can also be found at: eager2know.com

Songwriters

Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:12:57 -0600

This compilation episode weaved together the stories of six past Eager To Know guests who are songwriters. Good stuff.

Karen McFarlane Holman, Ph.D.

Fri, 25 Apr 2025 04:55:07 -0600

On this Eager To Know re-release, we speak with a person who is both a scientist and a punk rocker. It was refreshing to discuss a topic I am very passionate about, but don’t discuss often—science. Thank you, Karen, for creating such a great episode with me.

https://linktr.ee/karenchemistry

Wellington Lora

Thu, 24 Apr 2025 09:22:19 -0600

This episode was a great conversation about many aspects of sound and music. After re-listening, I am very pleased with it —well done, Wellington!

https://linktr.ee/williebones

Eli Tea Bar

Wed, 23 Apr 2025 03:35:44 -0600

Join me on this short but interesting conversation with the founder of Eli Tea Bar in Andersonville, Chicago. We speak about building a small business, entrepreneurship, and bubble tea!

https://www.eliteabar.com

Meridith Grundei

Tue, 22 Apr 2025 04:20:08 -0600

What a pleasant surprise this guest was. I never knew of improv as a tool for regular people. I am grateful to actor, coach, and improv expert, Meridith Grundei, for speaking to us a few years back. Please enjoy this re-release.

https://www.meridithgrundei.com

@thisimprovisedlife

@meridithgrundeicoaching

George Klauba

Fri, 18 Apr 2025 08:04:06 -0600

This is probably my favorite Eager To Know episode. George’s emotional storytelling really resonates with me. Listening to this again makes me grateful I started this podcast and captured this conversation. The Hoffheimer gallery in Chicago represents George.

https://hofheimergallery.com

https://www.georgeklauba.com

https://www.instagram.com/chadkoeplingertattoo/

Chad Koeplinger

Thu, 17 Apr 2025 07:19:10 -0600

This is the re-release of a top-downloaded Eager To Know episode - my interview with tattoo artist Chad Koeplinger. Chad took this discussion to places I didn’t expect, and I was both surprised and pleased. Be sure to follow him on Instagram.

https://www.frederickspeers.com

Frederick Speers

Tue, 15 Apr 2025 03:32:10 -0600

It’s one of my favorite Eager To Know episodes, maybe because the guest is a longtime friend. We speak about our childhood experiences and how they shaped our view of the world. It was such an excellent discussion.

https://www.friendsofharleyclarke.org

Audrey Niffenegger

Mon, 14 Apr 2025 05:17:27 -0600

This was an interesting interview with author and artist Audrey Niffenegger. Be sure to check out the Friends of The Harley Clark website to learn about the restoration project Audrey is involved with.

https://www.audreyniffenegger.com

Star Wars Multiverse on Amazon

Carmelo Esterrich

Sat, 12 Apr 2025 05:47:01 -0600

Author Carmelo Estrich speaks to me about his book Star Wars Multiverse. What a fun guest - great job. It is always fun to discuss a topic so broad and interesting as Star Wars.

https://williamconger.com

William Conger

Fri, 11 Apr 2025 04:33:45 -0600

My conversation with Chicago-based artist and educator William Conger. Thank you William for letting us see your studio and having a great discussion.

Lance Hoagland

Thu, 10 Apr 2025 07:34:14 -0600

We spoke to my Chicago yoga instructor about meditation and a regular yoga practice. Thank you, Lance, for being a great teacher and informative guest.

https://www.instagram.com/sheilarora/

Sheila Arora

Wed, 09 Apr 2025 04:16:37 -0600

Chicago-based abstract artist Sheila beautifully expressed her process, inspiration, and joy of painting in this excellent talk. Thank you, Sheila, for speaking with us back in 2020.

https://www.johnraisstudios.com

John Rais - Metalsmith

Tue, 08 Apr 2025 04:29:44 -0600

Metalsmithing and applied design with John Rais. Thank you, John, for speaking with us. Be sure to explore his wonderful work at:

Josh Teixiera

Mon, 07 Apr 2025 04:07:28 -0600

This conversation is a gem, so I’m glad I re-listened it. thank you, Josh.

Johnny Abbate

Sun, 06 Apr 2025 04:19:41 -0600

Berlin-based artist Johnny Abbate sat with us to share his story and inspiration. Be sure to check out his Instagram.

https://www.instagram.com/johnnyabbate/

https://www.instagram.com/morsims

Morgan Sims

Sat, 05 Apr 2025 05:02:06 -0600

Unique, bright colorful artwork - Morgan Sims is an artist I met in Chicago. I was delighted he agreed to sit down with me. Be sure to explore his varied artwork.

https://teresajamesart.com

Teresa James

Fri, 04 Apr 2025 05:59:19 -0600

Enjoy our conversation with Chicago artist Teresa James - this is a great listen!

https://www.pinupsmag.com

Christopher Schulz

Thu, 03 Apr 2025 07:42:53 -0600

I was thrilled when PINUPS creator Christopher Schulz agreed to speak with me a few years ago, and I am happy to share it with you all again. Please be sure to check out his clever, beautiful magazine.

https://www.josephaddeo.com

Joseph Addeo

Wed, 02 Apr 2025 04:52:21 -0600

P-town, astrology, Joan Crawford, and gay culture - we cover it all in this lengthy conversation. Thank you, Joe, for being such an interesting guest.

https://asyouarewellness.com

Georgia Argiris

Tue, 01 Apr 2025 05:00:24 -0600

This episode is a conversation about the mind and body through the tools of writing, meditation, and fitness. Thank Georgia for laying this out in a sensible manner.

https:/www.rickyartist.com

Christina Haggopian

Mon, 31 Mar 2025 03:37:10 -0600

Our conversation with the brilliant and talented Christina Haggopian. She shares a bit of her story and insight on what is next.

https://hagopianink.com

Eli Sobel

Fri, 28 Mar 2025 03:18:00 -0600

A conversation with installation artist Eli Sobel. Eli is a fascinating, creative guy; we are very grateful he spent time with us.

https://www.danielsroka.com

Daniel Sroka

Thu, 27 Mar 2025 07:15:08 -0600

A wonderful conversation with fine artist Daniel Sroka. We speak about his creative process and the business of creativity. Be sure to explore his work at

Darren Jones

Wed, 26 Mar 2025 03:49:14 -0600

We speak with Chicago-based artist Darren Jones about his creative Journey. Darren is an inspiring example of a successful transition from the corporate world to being a working artist.

http://darrencjones.com

Luis Guzman

Tue, 25 Mar 2025 04:28:38 -0600

Great conversation with Chicago-based painter Luis Guzman. This episode precisely represents the original vision of the Eager To Know podcast. Be sure to explore Luis’ work at:

https://www.artgulu.com

https://www.rickymceachernartist.com/moment-show

Ricky McEachern : MOMENT

Mon, 24 Mar 2025 04:32:57 -0600

We are going to 2020 when fellow artist Frederick Nitsche interviewed me about my then-upcoming solo art exhibit, MOMENT. I did a decent job outlining the show’s inspiration and approaches for various paintings. Be sure to explore the virtual walk-through of the show at the link in the episode notes.

Joe Bianco

Sun, 23 Mar 2025 07:59:07 -0600

This episode is a fascinating conversation. We spoke with voice actor Joe Bianco back in 2019 and it is one of our best. It is always great learning about something new. Thank you Joe for speaking with us.

https://www.actorjoebianco.com

https://www.bendermartialarts.com

Karen Perl & William Dolan

Sat, 22 Mar 2025 06:03:41 -0600

Chicago-based artists Karen Perl and William Dolan met with Ricky to discuss structures, alleys, rollercoasters, and Chicago. A diverse conversation with two talented artists.

https://karenperl.com

https://www.dolanart.com

www.rickynartist.com

Jason Bender

Fri, 21 Mar 2025 05:40:24 -0600

A re-release of another valuable episode - this time with martial arts instructor Jason Bender. There are lots of inspiring ideas and motivating concepts here.

https://www.kuriousman.com

Paul Hamilton

Thu, 20 Mar 2025 04:12:04 -0600

What a great guest; honest, insightful, and moving. Paul Hamilton is a pianist, teacher, and artist. This is our conversation from 2020 before I had any personal musical experience - Thank you, Paul.

https://www.felkercommalori.com

Marc Benja

Wed, 19 Mar 2025 04:42:46 -0600

Just one year out of the corporate world, Mark was in a new life as an artist when we did this interview. This is a refreshing conversation as we discuss this new adventure he is starting. Please check out Marc’s work at https://www.marcbenja.com

h www.rickyartist.com

Lori Felker

Tue, 18 Mar 2025 04:16:11 -0600

Our guest, filmmaker Lori Felker, did a great job. I had many questions about this creative format, and Lori answered them all. Please explore her work at:

Mark Toland

Mon, 17 Mar 2025 04:18:27 -0600

What a wonderful conversation with mentalist Mark Toland. Mark is very thoughtful and enjoyed re-listening to this episode to the end. Be sure to check out Mark’s genuinely amazing work at www.marktoland.com

Peter Barker

Sun, 16 Mar 2025 06:17:21 -0600

I am grateful Peter Barker agreed to speak and perform for us years ago. The conversation reveals the relationship between his music and mental illness. It is honest, insightful, and helpful.

Bandcamp

https://www.hannah-ruwe.com

Hannah Ruwe and Kevin Slattery

Sat, 15 Mar 2025 04:12:36 -0600

This conversation is with an actor and a painter, starting in their respective fields. We are going back to 2019 in this Eager To Know episode. Explore Hannah Ruwe and Kevin Slattery’s websites/Instagram to see what they have been up to since this conversation.

https://www.instagram.com/lillehummer/

https://www.jesusemmanuelvillarreal.com

Jesús Manuel Villareal

Fri, 14 Mar 2025 07:30:10 -0600

This re-release is a wonderful conversation with an incredible artist. We are very grateful he sat down with us back in 2019. Be sure to explore his work at his website. Thank you Jesús.

https://www.uncommonground.com

Uncommon Ground's Helen Cameron

Thu, 13 Mar 2025 04:30:30 -0600

Fundamental ideas are discussed in this episode. Helen is the owner of the popular Chicago restaurant Uncommon Ground, and she beautifully articulates her journey, and lessons learned. Chicago listeners can visit Uncommon Grounds Lake view location

https://davidjaycollins.com

Summerdale

Wed, 12 Mar 2025 05:58:30 -0600

A favorite guest of all time re-released, Summerdale author David J. Collins. We love this guy; we find him interesting, informative, and inspiring. Stay tuned for future episodes with this author. Check out all of his work at:

They Won't Win

Tue, 11 Mar 2025 05:52:41 -0600

These special guys offer incredible insight into the songwriting and creative process. I am very grateful the gay folk duo They Won’t Win sat with me in 2019 to record this interview. Be sure to enjoy their music on Spotify. Thank you, Danny and Greg.

https://www.rickymceachernartist.com/www.rickyartist.com

The Rialto Report

Mon, 10 Mar 2025 07:00:03 -0600

This past E2K episode received the most positive feedback, our talk with The Rialto Report’s April Hall. Very excited to re-share this. Be sure to explore their podcast and full archives at https://www.therialtoreport.com

Bénédicte Lassalle

Fri, 07 Mar 2025 05:30:23 -0600

It was Fantastic talking with this talented photographer. I very much enjoyed re-listening to this Eager To Know episode. Explore everything that she is up to at https://www.benedictelassalle.com

John McDavitt

Thu, 06 Mar 2025 05:19:01 -0600

Another Eager To Know re-release, this time with artist, designer, and educator John McDavitt. I've known John well over the years, so hearing one of our first conversations is extra special.

@artofjohnmcdavitt

https://alliepleiter.com/

Juan de Lascurain

Wed, 05 Mar 2025 07:20:54 -0600

This re-release is a must-listen. We learned a lot from our conversation with Juan de Lascurain. Explore www.dreambigworld.com and see all he has created since this interview.

Allie Pleiter

Tue, 04 Mar 2025 07:27:14 -0600

You will learn much from this conversation with the speaker, author, and coach, Allie Pleiter. This Eager To Know re-release is full of wonderful insights about learning to write more productively.

https://www.rickymceachernartist.com/www.rickyartist.com

Robert Porazinski

Mon, 03 Mar 2025 07:33:10 -0600

We are thrilled to re-share our first podcast ever recorded - with the incredible artist Robert Porazonski. Robert’s artwork is beautiful and interesting, and he is the sweetest person ever :)

Please be sure to explore his work at www.rporazinski.com

Paul Schultz

Sat, 01 Mar 2025 09:15:03 -0600

This episode feels like a free life coaching session. A most interesting guest, Paul has an active, creative mind and offers listeners many ways to be positive, productive, and motivated.

leapdaycreative.com

Brian Clouthier of BESTMAN

Fri, 28 Feb 2025 07:09:09 -0600

This was our first interview with a musician, Brian Cloutier of BESTMAN. It was a wonderful conversation, though a bit long - Stick with it. Re-listening, I can see the attempt to position myself as a creative peer, a fellow artist, and not just an interviewer.

https://open.spotify.com/artist/2EEtQGWKg8Q4NsRnjJ4dsM?si=UsfUV8stQUKnFpl-N-zRkA

https://www.waggeyland.com

Waggey Land : Business Success, One Dog at a Time

Thu, 27 Feb 2025 11:07:36 -0600

Re-listening to this episode that was originally released in 2019, I am more impressed with the Eager To Know guest. Waggeyland was founded by my best friend, JR, and through hard work and dedication, it has been a huge success. Enjoy, Learn, and be inspired!

https://aledabliss.bandcamp.com/album/every-song-on-this-playlist-is-for-you

Alex Wolking, Inspiration and Wisdom

Tue, 25 Feb 2025 09:35:28 -0600

Alex Wolking is an incredibly inspiring man, and we are thrilled to share his wisdom and positivity with the world. Thank you, Alex, for speaking with us back in 2019. Our first Eager To Know episode has now been re-released.

ig: alexwolking

ig: rickymceachernartist

Everything is Now

Tue, 28 Jan 2025 07:19:59 -0600

Ricky discusses his upcoming solo art show, Everything is Now. The show runs in February and March 2025 at the Crowell Gallery in Newfane Vermont. Thank you Aleda Bliss for your great interviewing skills.

www.rickyartist.com

Aleda Bliss

Mon, 27 Jan 2025 09:41:20 -0600

We speak with artist Aleda Bliss about her new release, "Every Song On This Playlist Is For You"

https://www.instagram.com/aledablisspresents/

Grafton

Mon, 27 Jan 2025 09:37:37 -0600

Bryan Santiago is the writer, director, and producer of the short film Grafton. We speak about the film, the creative journey to this project, and being an artist in Vermont.

https://www.graftonthefilm.com

Ben Gardner

Mon, 18 Nov 2024 02:22:00 -0600

Ben is the Director of Vermont Academy at Mt. Snow. We speak about his passion for education, how we learn, and the unique program he oversees.

https://flamingmatch.info/

Brent McEwan

Mon, 11 Nov 2024 05:18:47 -0600

A Los Angeles-based actor, Brent's most recent project is a short film titled "Flaming Match". In this, he expands beyond just the acting role and into the film's production.

Brent and I first met in the summer of 2010 when he was my downstairs neighbor in Provincetown, MA. We will not be discussing any details of that summer :)

https://www.instagram.com/stories/flamingmatch_thefilm/

Eddie Carson

Mon, 04 Nov 2024 04:24:36 -0600

Eddie Carson is the Dean of Residential Life and Belonging at Vermont Academy. We discuss what belonging means to him, and why it is an important experience.

https://www.pariskern.com

Paris Kern

Mon, 30 Sep 2024 02:18:00 -0600

We speak with singer and Feldenkrais practitioner Paris Kern about music, embracing what you enjoy, and our bodies. What a conversation! Thank you, Paris for sharing your life experience with all of us.

https://youtu.be/XXXgnLqBizk

Life is a Bike Race

Mon, 23 Sep 2024 02:16:00 -0600

135 Life is a Bike Race

Greg Martin is a coach, educator, and musician. In this episode Eager To Know we speak about how we learn, develop and improve. Greg shares the biggest problem that is preventing people from moving forward and achieving their potential.

https://youtu.be/Arp6MwOfmnc

https://www.facebook.com/vtarmoredcombat

Vermont Armored Combat

Sun, 15 Sep 2024 17:01:44 -0600

Sean Roberon is back discussing armored combat. I have seen (and heard!) this sport in real-life and it is unique, interesting and fun.

worldunderwonder@gmail.com

https://armoredcombatsports.com

https://youtu.be/rRQIi8wkmAw

Jake Grieco

Mon, 01 Jul 2024 16:07:19 -0600

Jake Grieco is a musician and builder living in southern Vermont. He speaks with Eager to Know about his musical path.

www.rickyartist.com
Photo credit: Jesse Pfammatter

SEMITONES

Mon, 15 Apr 2024 05:20:59 -0600

Ryan Matthew interviewed Ricky about his April / May 2024 SEMITONES art show.

www.mainstreetarts.com

Simon Miller

Mon, 25 Mar 2024 02:00:00 -0600

Artist Simon Miller joins Eager To Know to discuss the artistry of hair and the importance of listening. What an interesting character.

https://open.spotify.com/artist/7hJRwBZOrudOuV6tlVV0Ha?si=N1DYMtgiTICM91G-ZB2HAA

Evan Parks

Mon, 18 Mar 2024 02:00:00 -0600

Sound engineer, radio DJ, K-pop fan, and super fun guy - Evan Parks.

https://blacksheepradio.org

https://stage33live.com/faq/

https://www.mainstreetarts.org/msa-open-mic.html

https://www.ourplacevermont.org

Actor Cass Morgan

Mon, 11 Mar 2024 02:00:00 -0600

Cass Morgan is an actor and singer who has spent most of her career on Broadway. She is also a member of my community in Vermont. I am pleased to share my conversation with Cass.

David Billings

Mon, 04 Mar 2024 04:59:00 -0600

David Billings is the Executive Director of Our Place Drop-In Center in Bellows Falls. He speaks about his journey, from New Jersey finance to the Green Mountains of Vermont.

Holly Brewer

Mon, 26 Feb 2024 02:00:00 -0600

Holly Brewer is a self-proclaimed “music person” We speak about Holly's relationship with music and the creative process.

https://hollybrewer.org

Aaron Eames

Mon, 19 Feb 2024 02:00:00 -0600

Aaron Eames is a Bellow Falls Vermont resident and an interesting character. We speak about his experience in stand-up comedy and some possible next steps for him.

https://www.pksirishpub.com

https://www.doitbest.com/j-and-h-hardware/

https://www.fact8.com

https://blacksheepradio.org

Art Catalyst

Mon, 11 Dec 2023 07:52:51 -0600

For over 30 years, Main Street Arts has been a catalyst for the arts in southern Vermont. We speak with Ashley Storrow, Program Director at Main Street Arts.

https://www.mainstreetarts.org/

http://www.putnamsmith.com

Putnam Smith

Mon, 27 Nov 2023 06:13:43 -0600

Putnam Smith is a singer, songwriter, musician, and aspiring homesteader. What a fun and interesting conversation!

https://www.youtube.com/user/putnamsmith

https://www.vermontgoldsmith.com

Nathan, Goldsmith

Mon, 20 Nov 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Ricky speaks to goldsmith and lead artisan at Goldsmith Atelier in Bellows Falls, VT.

https://www.facebook.com/VermontGoldsmith/

Alex & Collin, Filmmakers

Mon, 06 Nov 2023 02:04:00 -0600

Ricky speaks to filmmakers, Alex Stradling and Collin Kimball, who are in production of their movie ”The Death of Me”

“The Death of Me” Is a dark where a tenacious teenager humorously battles her cynical inner self, school bullies, and personal despair, on a quest for self-acceptance.

The Death of Me

https://www.fact8.com

Matt Peake

Mon, 30 Oct 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Matt Peake is an artist, dancer, dance instructor, and writer. He began his professional career as a family physician in rural Vermont.

Bonnie Fairchild

Mon, 23 Oct 2023 02:07:00 -0600

Bonnie is a musician, music teacher, and owner of Milkhouse Music Studio. She is also my piano teacher. I have learned much from her relating to playing piano, music theory, and how music impacts our lives. I am pleased to share her wisdom with Eager To Know listeners.

Fabris Finestrae

Wed, 26 Jul 2023 14:02:04 -0600

Director John Hadden interviews me about my upcoming art show, Fabris Finestrae.

Fabris Finestrae
~ windows for the workers ~
August 2023

Opening Friday, August 4th
5 - 8 pm
18 Harmony Place
Brattleboro, VT

David Stern

Mon, 29 May 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Executive director of Wild Goose Players from Bellows Falls, VT

wildgooseplayers.com

John Hadden

Mon, 22 May 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Actor, writer, director, and teaching artist John Hadden.

http://johnlhadden.net/

Candace Jensen

Mon, 15 May 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Candace Jensen is a visual artist, writer, printmaker, calligrapher, community organizer, and activist. We speak about keeping things moving and staying continuously creatively activated.

More info at www.candacejensen.com/

and www.rickyartist.com

Josh Farr

Mon, 08 May 2023 03:06:39 -0600

Josh Farr is a photographer, curator, graphic/web designer, photo printer, furniture-builder, and Gallery Director at the Vermont Center for Photography.

https://vcphoto.org/

TM with Ryan Matthew

Mon, 01 May 2023 07:14:03 -0600

Ryan Matthew has a consistent Transcendental Meditation (TM) practice. We speak about how TM has helped his life and creative process.

@ryan_matthew_official

Charlie Hunter

Tue, 25 Apr 2023 06:35:31 -0600

Charlie Hunter was raised in rural New Hampshire and Vermont, and is the son of a small-town printer, He worked as a graphic designer and artist manager in the music industry, Hunter now works full-time as a painter and exhibits at galleries and museums across America.

More details at: https://www.charliehunter.art/

Mindy Fisher

Mon, 17 Apr 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Mindy Fisher’s artwork is fun and colorful. We speak about the process of creating abstract artwork.

more details at:

https://www.ornaglyphology.com/

Janet Cathey

Mon, 10 Apr 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Janet Cathey is an artist and art educator. We speak about her development as an artist and the nuances between skill and creativity.

more details at rickyartist.com

MC Noyes

Mon, 03 Apr 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Artist MC Noyes owns Canal Street gallery in Bellows Falls Vermont. We discuss how artist-owned galleries are unique and his development as an artist.

More information at:

canalstreetartgallery.com/

Sean Rohberon

Mon, 27 Mar 2023 02:00:00 -0600

Sean Rohberon is a theatre guy and he answers all of Ricky’s questions about acting, directing and the value of theatre for regular people.