Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Transcript

1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,850 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College.

2 00:00:23,850 --> 00:00:27,450 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree.

3 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:28,890 I'm your host, Kelly Preece

4 00:00:28,890 --> 00:00:39,330 and today I am talking to Dr Demelza Curnow and Demelza works in one of those many sort of academic related jobs or academic related fields,

5 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:46,020 but this time at an organisation outside of academia called the quality assurance agency.

6 00:00:46,020 --> 00:00:51,720 So Demelza, are you happy to introduce yourself? My name's Demelza Curnow

7 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,610 My Ph.D. was in mediaeval English.

8 00:00:56,610 --> 00:01:03,330 The title of it was five case studies in the transmission of popular middle english birth romance

9 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:07,830 Possibly not the most catchy and as where I am now.

10 00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:12,630 I'm based in the far tip of Cornwall, down near Penzance in.

11 00:01:12,630 --> 00:01:23,220 a little village called Ludford and I came back to Cornwall pretty close on on finishing my Ph.D. and my

12 00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:32,160 work over the last 15 years or so has been in academic quality and standards and governance.

13 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,860 That wasn't what I went into immediately after my Ph.D.

14 00:01:37,860 --> 00:01:41,850 And I can say more about that, if you'd like me to. Yeah, absolutely.

15 00:01:41,850 --> 00:01:48,110 So we will get on to kind of how how you got to academic quality and standards, definitely.

16 00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:57,310 But. So what was the initial transition you made or the first role that you did after you finished your Ph.D.?

17 00:01:57,310 --> 00:02:01,420 Well, I'm from a farming family, and I finished my Ph.D. realising this,

18 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:09,100 I knew nothing about anything apart from farming and middle English, which is an unusual combination.

19 00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:13,390 And I guess one of the big differences is I'm conscious of between

20 00:02:13,390 --> 00:02:22,570 When I did my Ph.D. 20 years ago, when they're done now, is that all I did was my Ph.D.

21 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:29,650 There was nothing around the edges in terms of employability and other skills.

22 00:02:29,650 --> 00:02:34,900 And also, I wasn't doing lots of teaching or doing the conference rounds either.

23 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:41,630 Just specialising in my manuscripts. And then I suppose the first.

24 00:02:41,630 --> 00:02:48,350 What if you could quote a proper job that I had outside of family really was working at the cider

25 00:02:48,350 --> 00:02:56,350 farm up near Truro where I worked for about nine months as a tour guide and tractor driver

26 00:02:56,350 --> 00:03:02,650 And in some respects, I can actually trace my career journey from that point.

27 00:03:02,650 --> 00:03:10,090 And I think one of the the really important things it did for me was forced me to stand in front of people and speak,

28 00:03:10,090 --> 00:03:13,720 which was something that was complete anathema to me.

29 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:20,620 And one of the reasons that I didn't want to go into an academic career, I never planned to go into an academic career.

30 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:27,490 I was simply doing my Ph.D. for the sheer enjoyment of playing with mediaeval manuscripts.

31 00:03:27,490 --> 00:03:33,820 This was quite fortunate in many respects because at the time this, I was doing my my Ph.D.

32 00:03:33,820 --> 00:03:40,240 Many of the mediaeval departments around the country and universities were closing.

33 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:55,790 And I suppose I also felt that I wanted to have complete flexibility about where I live, so the jobs were actually reducing in my area of specialism

34 00:03:55,790 --> 00:04:03,500 And I felt that where I was mattered more to me, perhaps, than what I did, and that was coupled with this idea as well,

35 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:08,660 that I didn't feel that I was confident about standing up to lots of people and speaking,

36 00:04:08,660 --> 00:04:14,330 and maybe I wasn't entirely convinced by my credibility as a researcher, either.

37 00:04:14,330 --> 00:04:18,350 And I don't know how unusual that is in academia.

38 00:04:18,350 --> 00:04:24,210 I suspect not that unusual, really, and particularly perhaps not in the arts and humanities as well.

39 00:04:24,210 --> 00:04:33,170 It's not that unusual at all. I think the norm rather than the rule rather than the exception.

40 00:04:33,170 --> 00:04:40,370 So I think there's just some really interesting things in there about what drives us to make career choices.

41 00:04:40,370 --> 00:04:47,120 I mean, firstly, you know what you're saying about actually, I just really loved playing with mediaeval manuscript.

42 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,060 I loved doing. The thing that I researched was about the goal of getting the Ph.D. was not an academic career,

43 00:04:53,060 --> 00:04:57,290 and we do make the assumption that that's what people are kind of aiming for when they do a Ph.D.

44 00:04:57,290 --> 00:05:05,150 And that's by no means always the case. But also that our career decisions are also driven by.

45 00:05:05,150 --> 00:05:14,340 Geography. You know, where in the country may we may want or need to be for various different reasons.

46 00:05:14,340 --> 00:05:18,050 It was primarily for family reasons, really.

47 00:05:18,050 --> 00:05:27,770 Yes, this is the kind of geography and needing to be. Locally and yeah, and I think the other thing is also.

48 00:05:27,770 --> 00:05:38,950 You know, sometimes that is the priority. All our lives outside of our work are the priority rather than necessarily what you end up doing.

49 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:42,990 And they're important factors to consider when making career decisions.

50 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:51,770 You know, we don't think enough about our lives and what we want out of our lives and how our jobs or careers might fit into that.

51 00:05:51,770 --> 00:06:01,490 So kind of having finished the PhD and doing a kind of a range of different things, forcing yourself into decent public speaking.

52 00:06:01,490 --> 00:06:11,540 Going back to your roots a little bit and. How did you go from there to where you are now?

53 00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:20,480 Well, my work at the cide fram being in the sort of tourism industry took me to working at Tate,

54 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:33,050 and that's where I began to get much more experience around governance and in turn, that led to a job working in the Cornish branch of Sport England.

55 00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:37,400 And I suppose again, there I was, specialising in governance a little bit more.

56 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:47,750 And I was also working around local partnerships, and it was some of that work and some of the skills I was picking up there,

57 00:06:47,750 --> 00:06:53,840 which led to me getting a position as a graduate trainee in the quality and standards

58 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:59,950 team at what was then University College Falmouth and later became Falmouth University.

59 00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:05,480 I think one of the interesting things to me was that really by sheer chance,

60 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,760 I ended up doing a lot of the accounts whilst I was working at that sports partnership.

61 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,110 And certainly, that sort of maths was not my background at all.

62 00:07:15,110 --> 00:07:23,390 I did maths up to A-level, but certainly wouldn't consider myself someone who could work with accounts

63 00:07:23,390 --> 00:07:32,350 But in preparing the organisation's accounts for audit with the county council accountants.

64 00:07:32,350 --> 00:07:40,750 One of the things I noticed was that looking for anomalies in numbers wasn't so different to looking for anomalies,

65 00:07:40,750 --> 00:07:49,750 in words, in manuscripts, so I could see how I was transferring what I had done in my Ph.D. to quite a different situation.

66 00:07:49,750 --> 00:07:54,760 And I remember picking out that example when I was being interviewed for my

67 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:00,040 graduate traineeship and that that graduate traineeship was only a 12 month post

68 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:09,460 And I think that something which did characterise all my early posts, I was applying for jobs which simply interested me.

69 00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:14,110 I was in a very, very fortunate position because I was living at home.

70 00:08:14,110 --> 00:08:18,970 So and I always knew that if the worst came to the worst, I could go to work on the farm.

71 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:25,960 So I wasn't going to get bored, but I just I just looked for jobs where I thought I could give it a decent stab.

72 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:35,530 I could argue my case and I thought I'd enjoy it, and it didn't bother me at all to be applying for short term posts

73 00:08:35,530 --> 00:08:41,530 So my very first job at the cider farm was a seasonal one, but they kept me on.

74 00:08:41,530 --> 00:08:47,560 My next one at Tate was a maternity cover and I think maternity cover I saw absolutely brilliant.

75 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:57,970 But giving you experience in a role which might not look natural, fit that if you can argue a case, people will often take a chance on you.

76 00:08:57,970 --> 00:09:03,110 It gets you some interesting experience and very often it opens up more doors.

77 00:09:03,110 --> 00:09:08,420 After that, it's another fixed term post than it was at the 12 month post at Falmouth,

78 00:09:08,420 --> 00:09:15,950 and that then led to a permanent position, though, was that permanent position at Falmouth.

79 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:20,280 Yes, it was it was in the same team, it was an assistant registrat post

80 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,130 NSo I think it's really interesting how kind of.

81 00:09:25,130 --> 00:09:36,610 Taking a circuitous route kind of back into an academic related role and actually going through kind of tourism and that experience kind of.

82 00:09:36,610 --> 00:09:39,850 Working on a farm and kind of coming coming at it through that perspective,

83 00:09:39,850 --> 00:09:44,170 you develop the whole range of skills applied a whole range of skills in different contexts,

84 00:09:44,170 --> 00:09:51,760 like you were saying about kind of finding anomalies in language and finding anomalies in in in numbers isn't actually

85 00:09:51,760 --> 00:10:04,150 necessarily always that different and kind of that bringing you back round into into quality and standards within a university.

86 00:10:04,150 --> 00:10:13,560 When you got the job at Falmouth, were you motivated to to kind of go back to working in an education or university setting?

87 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:24,490 Or was that just like you say, you were kind of just following following a role that looked interesting and an opportunity that looked interesting.

88 00:10:24,490 --> 00:10:32,530 I think always in the back of my mind have been at my viva for my Ph.D., my external examiner,

89 00:10:32,530 --> 00:10:37,840 who's asking me about my future ambition and whether or not I intended to be an academic.

90 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,410 And I was very clear then that that, no, that wasn't my intention at all.

91 00:10:43,410 --> 00:10:49,890 And he suggested to me that I should look at going into university administration.

92 00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:54,810 And he was saying at that point that it's often very,

93 00:10:54,810 --> 00:11:00,780 very valuable to have somebody who has got a little bit more experience of being on the academic

94 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:10,200 side than working on the administrative side because there is a different sort of understanding.

95 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:16,290 I think up to a point, he's right. I would also say that within quality and standards,

96 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:24,450 possibly the best person I've ever had working is somebody who had no higher education experience, so she hadn't done a degree.

97 00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:33,470 So I don't think it is necessary, but it has certainly really helped me, I think, to sometimes give me a credibility.

98 00:11:33,470 --> 00:11:42,150 I. But it is certainly altered how people have perceived me, and that has helped.

99 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:49,260 I think that's really important. And like you say, the, you know, the value of actually having that experience and that contextual knowledge,

100 00:11:49,260 --> 00:11:54,210 whether or not whether or not that actually is always a necessity in practise,

101 00:11:54,210 --> 00:12:01,500 but certainly in applying for jobs, you know that being able to confer that kind of experience is really useful.

102 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:07,470 And I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about the role that you're in now, please.

103 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:18,340 You know what it is that you're doing. Yes, certainly, as as I say, I suppose my background has become academic quality and standards.

104 00:12:18,340 --> 00:12:26,530 So all of the policies and procedures and regulations that help a higher education provider demonstrate to a third

105 00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:34,600 party in the external world that the degrees and the education they're offering are at the level they should be.

106 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:40,810 And then governance, which is very much around and how you're managing that internally.

107 00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:47,030 So I worked my way through a few different universities.

108 00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:54,860 And I was involved a little bit with the QAA, which is the quality assurance agency for higher education.

109 00:12:54,860 --> 00:13:05,120 And this is the body that sits between the regulatory and funding bodies for each of the four UK jurisdictions.

110 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:13,050 And then the sector itself and the role that the QAA has taken over the years has varied a little.

111 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:20,520 Say at the moment, if you look across the four UK nations, there's the Office for Students in England.

112 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:26,350 There's the Scottish Funding Council in Scotland, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales in Wales.

113 00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:29,520 There, there's legislation going through to change that at the moment.

114 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:37,560 And then there's the I think it's the Department for Education, perhaps for Environment in Northern Ireland.

115 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:42,630 And so each of those bodies has a relationship with the QAA

116 00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:50,400 and the QAA then manages the oversight of higher education for people who aren't familiar with it.

117 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,950 I suppose the best way to describe it is think a little bit about Ofsted in schools,

118 00:13:55,950 --> 00:14:04,650 but actually the oversight of quality and standards in higher education works on a slightly different footing to schools.

119 00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:10,440 I think we would describe it as a bit more mature and it's here with you instead.

120 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:21,030 So many years ago, just sort of towards the end of my time at Falmouth, I applied to be one of the reviewers.

121 00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:28,320 So one of the people drawn from higher education providers around the country who would go into a team to visit another higher

122 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:38,640 education provider and look at how they were managing their academic quality and standards and write a report and make a judgement.

123 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:46,140 So I did that for them for a few years as I sort of moved between between different universities myself,

124 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:53,880 and then I thought that I would sort of take maybe a year or two where I step back and

125 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,570 think about what I wanted to do because the sector was changing quite a lot as well.

126 00:14:57,570 --> 00:15:10,960 At that point, say, I got a part time job working in university research administration, which was a little bit of a gap that I had in my portfolio.

127 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:17,250 Maybe I'd always worked much more with with the taught provision and less with I with research students as well,

128 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:23,010 how we manage research, but less with the sort of the pure research itself.

129 00:15:23,010 --> 00:15:29,850 And if I did want to step back into a career and the sort of academic registrar or even registrar and

130 00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:37,310 secretary then getting some experience more experience around research was going to be valuable to.

131 00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:45,020 And again, I was simply taking the approach of. And even if it wasn't, I'd enjoy myself in the meantime.

132 00:15:45,020 --> 00:15:47,600 So I picked up a part time job doing that.

133 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:56,720 And then I suppose about four months later that QAA was advertising for something called flexible part timers.

134 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,320 And I went for that job and I got that as well.

135 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:10,190 So I've then been managing a substantive role as a research administrator alongside a flexible role with the QAA,

136 00:16:10,190 --> 00:16:18,590 and the flexible role is technically zero hours. In reality, there is enough work that I could be full time.

137 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:25,220 But I'm a sort of a bit like being a minister without portfolio.

138 00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:30,270 I can lead all sorts of different projects. It just depends where the gap is.

139 00:16:30,270 --> 00:16:41,030 So I've been designing and leading professional development courses for people in the sector, for the area I've been.

140 00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:48,030 I'm currently leading the work around microcredentials and writing the microcredentials characteristic statement.

141 00:16:48,030 --> 00:16:51,630 And I've done quite a bit of international work as well, which I've really enjoyed.

142 00:16:51,630 --> 00:16:59,820 The only thing I cannot do is anything to do with quality assessment England and the designated quality body responsibilities.

143 00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:02,760 And that's because the Office for Students would see it as a conflict with my

144 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,350 broader role and also the fact that I got a substantive role within a provider.

145 00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:15,450 In fact, that substantive role is coming to an end in the next week, and I'm going to be concentrating all my time within the QAA

146 00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:24,180 But again, I'm going to be balancing a flexible part time on FBT role with a point five role,

147 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:28,830 which is in the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Europe division.

148 00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:40,320 So again, doing sort of institutional liaison and looking to develop that the new review method methods the Scottish higher education providers.

149 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:50,140 Wow, thanks. That sounds absolutely, absolutely fascinating, and I'm yeah, I'm just continually, really, really.

150 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:57,070 Really struck by the kind of the mantra you have about following your following your interest and doing

151 00:17:57,070 --> 00:18:03,230 doing the thing that feels right and looks interesting and kind of seeing where that goes because.

152 00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:06,440 I think we always feel like we need to right, we need to have the answer.

153 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:11,420 Like even off even the first job after the PhD needs to be the answer that needs to be my career,

154 00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:15,170 my job, you know, as if it's a kind of final or an end point.

155 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:20,250 And actually, you know, these things are constantly evolving.

156 00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:26,870 I wondered if you could say something for anybody that we've got listening, who is interested in?

157 00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:36,530 A role in kind of the QAA or quality and standards and and any in or, you know, in or outside a university.

158 00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:42,710 What advice would you give them about the kind of key skills that they need to develop the key experiences

159 00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:50,660 or just how having a Ph.D. or any other form of research might be useful for them in that context?

160 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:56,720 If you've done the Ph.D., one of the things that you've had to learn is you've got to be flexible.

161 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,570 You might have an idea on how you're going to get from A to B, but actually something could could change that.

162 00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:03,750 And I mean, in doing a PhD

163 00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:11,090 we do that all the time don't we it's just your research takes you down a different route or something you thought would work doesn't work,

164 00:19:11,090 --> 00:19:12,740 so you try something else.

165 00:19:12,740 --> 00:19:22,880 And I think one of the things that a Ph.D. really does is enables a level of reflection that you don't normally get sort of some of the lower levels.

166 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,910 And I think being a reflective practitioner is really, really important.

167 00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:33,620 I remember one of the things I said to members of my staff is if something has gone wrong,

168 00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:40,430 we need to know why it's gone wrong, but not in a way that then sort of paralyses us so that we can't move forward.

169 00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:45,260 It's just it should be much more a question of right. That didn't happen, as I expected.

170 00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:56,610 Why is that actually was it better? Did we learn something that we can actually use for something else or should we do it that way in the future?

171 00:19:56,610 --> 00:20:01,050 So I guess that's one thing always being open to different ideas and being prepared to change

172 00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:08,130 direction and to listen to other people and that way of like sparking ideas of different people.

173 00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:10,900 And I guess the other thing is that.

174 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:19,740 Doing a Ph.D. you've got you've got to be somebody who can stick at something even through the boring bits and get to the end.

175 00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:23,290 So I mean, certainly in arts and humanities, I know it's a little bit different in the sciences,

176 00:20:23,290 --> 00:20:27,520 but often you are you're applying for a project that somebody else has designed.

177 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,020 But in arts and humanities, we're actually you're designing your own project as well.

178 00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:38,710 You're seeing something through from that sort of real conception right through to the final completion.

179 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:46,360 So it gives you that real sort of stick ability, which I think is quite important to.

180 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:52,330 Thank you so much to Demelza for sharing her knowledge and experience with us.

181 00:20:52,330 --> 00:21:02,440 And I think has made some really excellent, excellent points about the path and the journey of a career and the, you know,

182 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:16,340 the first job you have outside of your research degree, whether it's an admin job or a postdoc or a teaching job or working on a cider farm and.

183 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:28,340 That's not your career forever. These things shift and change and evolve, and it's been really interesting to hear how that's worked for Demelza.

184 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:44,189 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College.

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Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree.

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I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and in this episode, I'm going to be talking to one of my colleagues from the University of Birmingham.

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Dr. Holly Prescott, about her career beyond her research degree.

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Holly, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. So I'm Holly Prescott, and I did my Ph.D. at the University of Birmingham.

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I did it between 2008 and 2011. It's tough to get my head around.

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The fact that it's nearly 10 years since I finished my Ph.D. was a crossover between literature and cultural geography.

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So I was looking at the effective, and narrative agency of abandoned spaces in contemporary British fiction.

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And once I'd completed that.

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I felt like I'd taken research as far as I wanted to take it.

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And so from then, I forged a career in what we might call higher education professional services,

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and I'm currently the careers advisor for postgraduate researchers at the University of Birmingham.

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Amazing. I just want to pick up on a phrase that you use, though, which I thought was really interesting,

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which is that you came to the end of the PhD and you'd taken research as far as you wanted to take it.

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Can I ask you more about what you mean by that? Absolutely, yes.

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And I think what I mean by that would be in comparison to how I felt after I finished my master's degree.

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So I did, a taught MA and in literature and culture at the University of Lancaster.

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And I just got really into it, got really into my dissertation.

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And one of the main reasons I progressed to the Ph.D. was because after I've done that MA dissertation, I thought I'm not done yet.

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I felt like there was more mileage in the ideas and the research I was doing.

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So just to give you some context.

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My master's dissertation was looking at uh urban exploration photography and say where people go into abandoned buildings, take photographs,

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display them online and especially of maternity hospitals,

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and crossover between the online display of these images of these abandoned maternity hospitals and birth narratives.

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And and yeah, I felt like and the more I was reading, the more I was seeing abandoned hospitals,

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especially cropping up in and in novels that I was looking at.

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And so I think there's more I can get out of this.

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And and that was one of the main reasons I went on to do something I think kind of served

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me relatively well throughout the process was that I was treated like a fixed term job,

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if you like. I was very lucky and privileged to have funding from Research Council.

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But I, yeah, I treated. It really is kind of a fixed term job.

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And and when I was coming towards the end of it, where after my master's, I saw.

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I still feel like there's some mileage in these ideas, I want to keep going with the research.

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That sort of came to a natural end for me.

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And as I was going to say, it was actually in my second year, I really started to think I will probably do something different after this.

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And I started to, on a small scale, explore what that something different might be.

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Yeah, I think that's really interesting and just that kind of concept of the research

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coming to sort of this or your your motivation coming to the natural conclusion.

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And so when you kind of when your second year when you were starting to investigate what that might be, how how did you go about that?

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How did you go about the process of going? What else is there and what might what might be suitable for me?

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Hmm. I think it's important to point out that I don't think I did this completely consciously, right?

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I don't think this was a conscious, purposeful career planning process.

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I don't think my line is so difficult, isn't it, to put yourself back in the past situation, actually think what your line of thought was?

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But I don't think it was. Oh, I have to start career planning now, so I'm going to try some things and see what's right for me.

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It was much more and it was much more.

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I don't think I'm going to be continuing with research after this.

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So feeling like that gave me the freedom to dip my toe into a couple of other things and try some things out.

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And I think another big part of it was what I was naturally drawn to.

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I think what I ended up doing from second year onwards was following my interests a lot more.

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And so just to put that into some context, my interests ended up being things like teaching anything where I was in an advisory work,

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in an advisory capacity and anything where I was doing things like training or mentoring other people.

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And those were things that I was naturally drawn to.

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So that meant I picked up quite a bit of undergraduate teaching, some master's level teaching as well.

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And it meant that I worked as postgraduate student ambassador in the Post Graduate Recruitment Office.

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So helping organise post-grad open days, doing campus tours, things like that.

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And it was actually that part time role that led to my first full time job after the PhD as well.

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And then some of the things I did was I did a stand up comedy course, random, I know.

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And but that has been so useful and in my work now because I felt like if I could stand up in front of the lamp tavern in Dudley and tell jokes,

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I could probably cope with any audience and whatever was thrown at me in any job.

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So. And yeah, that that was what I did.

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I think it was that I became very aware quite quickly about what and what I was drawn towards what I wanted to do more of.

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So when I spotted opportunities like those,

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I took them and as much as I could and and it was doing that and especially the post-grad ambassador work, It ended up really showing me.

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How broad the range of. University based careers is and it started to spark thought in me as well,

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if I do still want to be student facing, I want to be teaching or advising students in some way.

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I still want to be in a university environment and I want to keep that feeling of being an expert in something

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some someone people come to and for for expertise in a certain area.

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That was when I started to realise there were other avenues that could give me that that weren't traditional academic research or teaching.

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Yeah. I think the things I'm really picking up on there is follow it following your interests and continuing to do the things that interests you,

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because they will they will lead you to kind of something that's more perhaps more fitting to interests and values,

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but also kind of getting involved with stuff.

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It raises your awareness, it raises your awareness of what other opportunities and what other options are available to you career wise.

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Because I think, you know, I I was an academic for seven years, six years, six years and,

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you know, until I decided I didn't want to do that anymore and start signing up for job alerts.

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Even working as an academic, I didn't really have a concept of the breadth of professional services and all of that you

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could do within a university that weren't being an academic and so important to do that.

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And can I can I give you another example Kelly just wanted to while pick that you've picked up?

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What I think was important there about, say, about following your interests.

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I think two points here. Number one, I was a bit naughty really, my PhD,

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because I would find myself regularly shirking my research to prepare teaching and and to see how I might do more open days and things like that.

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And at the time, I felt bad for that.

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But really, it was a very important message I was giving myself.

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I was sort of telling myself whre I drew My energy, but also another example of what you say about following your interests.

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So and a couple of years ago, and I think it's going on for about three years ago now,

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I was working with a PGR and she had a physics physical sciences background and and had done a really interdisciplinary PhD.

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And um, she had done a similar thing.

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So she knew very early on she was very interested in communication just in general,

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whether it was communication, science, communication, research, communication of ideas, whatever it was.

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So she decided to wherever there was a communication theme and she had time and the ability to explore that.

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She ended up doing some media training. She ended up getting involved in a podcast.

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She ended up making some videos about her research, and she just purely did that because that was where that was, where interest lay.

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She just really enjoyed those things. When she came to graduate through talking to a friend,

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she learnt about a role that was being advertised and it was in a microscope company and the job pretty much involved

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interviewing scientists to find out how they used this equipment and how they use the applications that this company created.

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And that's not even a job she would have known was a job. But by taking those opportunities doing those training she made,

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she accidentally made herself an ideal candidate for a job that suited her really well.

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But she didn't know it was a job, and I just love that as a career planning model, if you like the fact that it's not a plan.

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She didn't identify a type of job in eighth grade.

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She just developed herself in the ways that she was most interested, and it accidentally made her a great candidate for the job that suited her.

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And so I thought, Yeah, I really rate that as a strategy.

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Yeah, I think I think Kate Foster at Exeter has said that's called planned happenstance or something like it.

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It's a theory,

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and I think it is so important because I've I had a very similar experience in that I was involved in my national kind of subject area network dance

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HE and through that set up and a network for early career researchers because I was one of two early career researchers heavily involved in it.

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And and we didn't really know anyone at other institutions on each other, and we wanted to have that support system.

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And actually,

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that was a huge thing when I applied for the role that I'm in now as a researcher development manager that worked in my favour because actually,

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that's the kind of stuff that my role now is doing. And it was a really cool experience and the fit directly into the work that I'm doing now.

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But it was kind of a a a side hustle kind of.

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I just want to do this and like you, something I was taking taking time out with my quote unquote day job to do.

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And I think lots of us do that. And I really like how you're talking about the importance of acknowledging and

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reflecting on those instincts and those pathways and those things that you're drawn to.

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I think it's like any aspect of life, whether it's, you know, whether it's academic,

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professional relationship, family links, if you keep doing something,

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if you keep being drawn to a pattern of behaviour,

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you're being drawn to that pattern of behaviour for a reason and uncovering those reasons can unlock a lot of nuggets for you.

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I think. Yeah, it can. You know, it really ties into all of that stuff that we talk about in our respective roles,

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about kind of self-awareness and reflecting on your values and all of that.

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I like you. I've always done that kind of unconsciously, I guess, and through my career.

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But actually, you put yourself ahead of the game if you actually engage with all of those processes and all of those

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resources because you learn about yourself and what you're drawn to and what interests and excites you.

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And that can kind of step ahead to thinking about, Okay, so where where does this fit, you know, career wise, sector wise?

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And I think that reflection can also perhaps save you some stress in the long run,

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because especially when we're talking about postgraduate researchers,

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you know, I really appreciate that not everybody has the time, exactly space to just say yes to these extra things.

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So I think it's a balance.

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And if you are someone who is juggling your postgraduate research with a hefty pile of other responsibilities and challenges,

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and the more you can do to to to be very strategic and in the few opportunities that you do take.

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The better, so you don't feel the pressure to have to say yes to all of these things,

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but you're just investing in the few things that are going to develop you in the line of how you think you want to develop.

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This is why I, you know, I I do think career planning is very outdated in terms of deciding you want to

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be something and then planning in a very linear way to actualise that plan.

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I think jobs, if jobs are being born and dying, a rate that is too fast for that to be an effective strategy anymore.

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And what I do think is that if you just have some idea about how you want your doctoral

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experience to develop and to use that to be strategic in the things you say yes and no to,

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that can save you. I think some conflict and some stress to to grant yourself the permission to say no to things that don't fall within that.

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Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And yeah,

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I'm really interested about what you said about this kind of career management career planning thing being being outdated because

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I my experience is that kind of I came to this knowledge area kind of after I'd made some quite dramatic decisions in my career.

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It's going to stop being an academic and actually looking at it helped me contextualise the decisions that I've made,

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but I'm not sure if I'd have someone to put the career management cycle in front of me.

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I'd necessarily have still made those decisions.

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But on reflection, help me understand that I was actually following my, my values and my interests and my mind.

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And so can you tell us a bit more about what you're doing now and how that kind of fits in

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with kind of you following those interests and those passions during your research degree?

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Yeah, definitely so.

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And so as well as my day job being the careers advisor post graduate research, going to University of Birmingham, I keep a Ph.D. careers blog.

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It's called Post Gradual and its phd-careers.co.uk to give a shameless plug.

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And and in our own blog.

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And I. Talk quite a bit about a thought experiment that I'm quite a fan of.

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And it really is a it is me putting into words something that I was doing unconsciously through this process of what led me to what I do now.

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So. Obviously, what I do now is I support postgraduate researchers with that and career development who will take their next steps.

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But it's taken me a while to come around to this and it's taken me a while to realise that this was.

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And this role was dealing with the problems in the world that I wanted to solve.

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But what I feel like I have done and this is something I encourage other people to do is say from coming out of the PhD into the first role I was in

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which was working in postgraduate student recruitment. There were things about that I really enjoyed.

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So the first thing to say was. And having done part time work with them during my PhD, gave me an easy in right.

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That was an easy step sideways into doing some work because it was academic.

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adjacent if you like. I knew the team I'd worked with before.

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And so that gave me a nice Segway into my first proper job after the Ph.D. as I was going through that job.

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I started to more consciously think about what were the bits of it that motivated me the most, and it was anything where I was advising people.

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It was anything where prospective students were coming to me as an expert,

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as somebody who could be a postgraduate and wanting to ask questions about the experience,

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the application process, being hungry for information, and I was the one that could give it to them.

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I really liked being in that situation,

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and I really enjoyed being the person who made people feel more confident and more reassured with taking the next steps.

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Those were things that really lit me up, but the bits of it I wasn't so enamoured with were only being able to promote one opportunity to them,

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which was postgraduate study and and and the kind of salesy aspect of the role.

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I quickly realised that the conversations I wanted to be having with these people were more

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impartial and conversations about what would really be right for them in the next steps.

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So what I was doing here semiconsciously, I was asking myself if I was going to turn my current job into my ideal job.

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What bits of it, what I want to keep? What aspects of it would I want to lose?

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And what kinds of activities or things might I want to add to it that I'm not doing at the moment

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And I think I was doing that throughout the PhD as well. I just didn't realise it.

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I think when I was going through the PhD, I was thinking,

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I want to keep working in a university environment to keep this advisory, teaching and authority kind of figure.

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But I wanted to lose working on my own a lot, and I wanted to add more contact with a broader range of people in my work,

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and I wanted to add a bit more kind of work life separation.

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And so I guess what led me from the Ph.D. to where I am now is this iterative process of each role I took.

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Keep asking myself, What do I want to keep, what I want to lose, what I want to add?

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And it says that that actually led me to undertake a professional qualification in career

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guidance and take a sideways move to do a secondment and into the careers service,

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which is how I got it originally. And that was originally a six month secondment, and I ended up establishing a permanent role.

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And then once I was in that again asking myself those questions, what do I want to add, specifically working with researchers?

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So so far, I feel like my career has been this iterative process of keep asking myself these three questions Why don't you keep what I want to lose?

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What do I want to add? And I think I will always be doing that. And throughout my career, and it's something I would really encourage people,

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especially post-grad researchers, to to think about and to bring into their consciousness,

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because I think too often we can fixate on the idea that we have to solve our entire lives with our first post job, right?

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Especially if we're going to be jumping out of academia into something else, we can think, Well,

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what if I don't like it or if the job is terrible, etc. You're not trying to solve your whole life with your next job.

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You're just trying to take the next step in this iterative process. You're just trying to think, What do I want to add next?

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What do I want to lose next? And I'm making very small incremental changes towards something that ticks more boxes

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I hope that answered the question, that's my best way of describing the process that I've gone.

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through from PhD to where I am now, it has and I think it's hit on a really, really and insightful bit of advice,

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which is the thing about not, you know, you're not solving your whole life, you're not kind of committing to something forever

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I think that's that's such an important point to make because actually, you know,

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careers evolve over time and you know, you discover you discover interests that you didn't necessarily know you had.

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I mean, through doing some of the kind of community based work with PGRs I have become really interested in equality and diversity,

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and I'm actually going on secondment shortly to do a role looking at inclusive research and research ultures, you know?

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That's when I was an academic. I would never have imagined that I would taken,

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but it's something that's evolved throughout the process of doing different roles and engaging with different PGR communities.

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And so I think what you're saying is really crucial because. We discover new things our interests change over time.

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Now, you know that none of these things are static, so thinking about that first,

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your post is a kind of deciding what you will be doing forever is deciding kind of what what the next step is.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know I didn't.

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I didn't think straight out of my PhD dying to be a careers advisor, and I'd only mean that kind of partially, irreverently.

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Yeah, but it's it's like it's as if I was going through in my first couple post jobs capturing these breadcrumbs that

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were giving me clues as to that was what was going to to help me make people feel the way I wanted them to feel,

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the way I wanted to support people and to working with the groups of people that I wanted to make a difference to.

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Thanks so much to Holly for taking the time to speak to me and for giving us some really fantastic insight about following your interests,

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your values, using your intuition,

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but also fundamentally not seeing that first job post research degree as it as the culmination or the the end point of your career.

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Actually, it's about finding something that's interesting and gathering those breadcrumbs, as Holly said, to find the right thing for you.

214

00:26:47,210 --> 00:27:03,066

And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Transcription

1 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:23,790 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College.

2 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:29,550 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree, I'm your host, Kelly Preece for this episode.

3 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:34,800 We're going to be doing things a little bit differently. I'm delighted to be joined by Dr Charlotte Kelstead.

4 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:41,310 Charlotte graduated with her Ph.D. in history from the University of Exeter recently and is

5 00:00:41,310 --> 00:00:46,740 currently working as an event coordinator at the European Centre for Palestine Studies.

6 00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:49,200 But I'm not going to be talking to Charlotte about her career.

7 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:57,690 In fact, we're switching around and instead Charlotte's going to be interviewing me about my career in research and higher education.

8 00:00:57,690 --> 00:01:02,550 So take it away, Charlotte. OK, fantastic so

9 00:01:02,550 --> 00:01:10,140 I have lots of questions for you because I feel like you've been part of my experience at Exeter for quite a long time.

10 00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:19,890 So I remember when I was when I was back doing an undergraduate doing the Exeter The X Factor introductory thing about seven years ago.

11 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:23,370 I remember you being there and having a wonderful personality and brightening up,

12 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:31,170 brightening up the end of the day when we were all starting to flag a bit. So I'm just really interested to hear all about your career,

13 00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:40,080 especially because I've just submitted my corrections and I'm now starting to think about careers beyond academia and within academia.

14 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:46,110 And I'm just really interested to hear today about how your career has progressed, things that you've learnt along the way.

15 00:01:46,110 --> 00:01:51,330 Any advice you might have and how it's all come together to be where you are now.

16 00:01:51,330 --> 00:01:56,320 So perhaps you could start by just giving us a bit of background on your career.

17 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:05,220 So how you got to where you are now? Yes, so am I.

18 00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:16,950 I always say, like my, my career has been incredibly eclectic in every possible way, so I actually started working professionally when I was 14, I.

19 00:02:16,950 --> 00:02:22,080 So I was a theatre kid in all of its stereotypes.

20 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,330 And I was a dancer and an actor and a singer.

21 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:31,560 And so I was in the the youth company actually at the Northcott Theatre on the University of Exeter campus when I was a teenager.

22 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:37,570 And so I was working all through secondary school and then.

23 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:43,160 Decided kind of had a decision to make between going to stage school and going to university, I was always quite academic,

24 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:52,720 so I thought I'd go down the university route, but I did a degree in dance and theatre, perhaps unsurprisingly.

25 00:02:52,720 --> 00:03:02,290 And I always say, look, that within about a week of starting my undergraduate degree, I met a Ph.D. student who I just actually,

26 00:03:02,290 --> 00:03:10,070 I think just passed his viva called Martin Hargreaves, who was one of our what at Exeter would be a PTA,

27 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:15,100 I guess, but he was our seminal teacher and one of our modules and.

28 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:23,260 He was great, you know, made a really great impression on me, but also he talked to us about his Ph.D. and about his research.

29 00:03:23,260 --> 00:03:29,920 And I had this kind of moment of of clarity, you know, like clouds parting kind of aha.

30 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,840 Where I went. Oh, so this this you know, this discipline, this art that I love,

31 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,630 I can actually combine that with kind of my love of learning and my love of knowledge.

32 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:47,980 And I could become a researcher and I could become an academic. And even though I was going to university to do a degree in in that subject,

33 00:03:47,980 --> 00:03:53,380 it hadn't occurred to me that that was even a job that somebody could have say.

34 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:54,460 Right, right.

35 00:03:54,460 --> 00:04:01,720 From that beginning point in my undergraduate degree, I was like, right, I want to be an academic, wanted do a PhD, want to teach at university.

36 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:10,600 That was kind of so I made that decision really early on. And I'm kind of I'm quite a quite stubborn and relentless.

37 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,880 So, you know, once I make a decision to stick to it. So, you know, I I did my undergraduate degree.

38 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,650 I did a research master's, and then I got a post at the University of Leeds,

39 00:04:20,650 --> 00:04:28,180 which was to do my PhD part time and to be a member of academic staff in the department part time.

40 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:34,710 They called it a research associate and and.

41 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:38,520 And yeah, and that's how I that's how I became an academic, really.

42 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:45,110 And so I did that for six years. And during those six years, I.

43 00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:52,460 Did a myriad of things, I ended up leading undergraduate degree programmes and developing master's programmes and moving institutions,

44 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:57,680 but the one thing I didn't do in that period is complete my Ph.D.

45 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:04,750 So I. Really struggled. And with.

46 00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:17,430 Work life balance and mental health and wellbeing, and worked far more than a 1.0 on kind of 0.5 research, 0.5 teaching,

47 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:31,980 and made myself very poorly and as a result, decided to withdraw from the PhD and concentrate on on on my teaching and.

48 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:41,560 And. That's sort of over time, I kind of I think I naively thought if I kind of let the structure and the time pressures of the PhD go

49 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:48,940 it might alleviate a bit. But it didn't because there's a cultural issue in He but  there's also a me issue in this.

50 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:56,740 I am a perfectionist. I am an overworker and I'm not very good at work life balance.

51 00:05:56,740 --> 00:06:03,320 And so I. Ended up in that position again once I moved to the University of Northampton, I did the same thing.

52 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:13,370 I was on a four day week lectureship and I was working. Six, if we're being conservative days a week, you know, eight in the morning till eight,

53 00:06:13,370 --> 00:06:20,960 nine at night, and I did the same thing, I worked myself until I was ill and completely burnt out.

54 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,060 And it was that second time that I had to take a step back and go, something's not working here.

55 00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:29,570 I love teaching. I love research. I love working with students.

56 00:06:29,570 --> 00:06:34,940 Love, love working in HE. But something about this just does not work for me.

57 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:41,390 And it brings out qualities in me that make me unwell, you know, those kind of perfectionism and that sort of stuff.

58 00:06:41,390 --> 00:06:51,020 So I. Oh. Sorry, cats just appeared and she wants to get involved I yeah,

59 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:55,900 so I kind of I reached this kind of crisis point and I always say, like, these things aren't just professional.

60 00:06:55,900 --> 00:07:04,450 These are personal as well as a part of that crisis point was that my my grandmother, who pretty much raised me, passed away unexpectedly.

61 00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:12,430 And I was, you know, on the other side of the country marking undergraduate essays when I could have been with her.

62 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:19,620 And I think the whole thing kind of came to a head and I realised that I was doing the wrong thing.

63 00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:28,510 And so I started to kind of have an existential crisis of, you know, I said when we started like I wanted to do this since I was 18.

64 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:34,810 I've never tried to get any experience and anything else, I'd had a part time job in a bookshop which was wonderful and gave me all sorts of skills,

65 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:38,440 but nonetheless, you know, what the hell was I going to go on to?

66 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,840 And people said, well, why don't you retrain as a secondary school teacher? I didn't want to retrain.

67 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,490 I'm not a fan of teenagers, certainly not en masse individually.

68 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:55,490 They're fine. And so there was all sorts of things and I just sort of signed up for lots of job alerts jobs.ac.uk

69 00:07:55,490 --> 00:08:00,250 all of that sort of stuff. And up comes this job at the University of Exeter.

70 00:08:00,250 --> 00:08:04,870 And I knew I wanted to move back to Devon cause it's where I'm from for researcher development.

71 00:08:04,870 --> 00:08:11,680 Programme manager for PGRs was what it was called at the time to run training and development for PhD students.

72 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:21,940 And I thought, well, given my experience as an academic, given my experience as a Ph.D. student, you know, I feel like I've got.

73 00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:28,450 I've got some credibility here and I've got some some interest in kind of making sure that other people haven't gone,

74 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:32,080 don't go through what I went through and that can learn from my mistakes.

75 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,410 And also, I got lots of teaching experience and all of that sort stuff.

76 00:08:35,410 --> 00:08:43,320 So I applied. And six years later and.

77 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:49,600 Here I am, I'm I'm still here and, you know.

78 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:57,130 A wonderful thing of serendipity where it was it was really a kind of shot in the dark, this job for me,

79 00:08:57,130 --> 00:09:03,250 I wasn't sure if I would like it, and I wasn't really sure if I was cut to be in professional services,

80 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:14,170 if I would be sorry, if I would encounter the same problems that I'd had as an academic with work life balance and kind of boundaries and also stuff.

81 00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:18,100 But actually, it was the step removed that I needed. I still get to do all the things I love.

82 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,500 I still do teaching. I still do research.

83 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:27,850 But it's it's really been a way for me to channel what in some ways was quite a negative experience of being an academic

84 00:09:27,850 --> 00:09:36,140 into something really positive and to feel like I'm I'm kind of making a contribution to the sector or the system,

85 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:43,990 because whilst I recognise that a lot of my issues were were to do with my personality and who I am, also, you know,

86 00:09:43,990 --> 00:09:49,780 there are cultural issues in the sector to do with overwork and all those sorts of stuff and all those sorts of things.

87 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:55,630 And hopefully in the role that I'm in, I can do a little bit to help take that pressure off.

88 00:09:55,630 --> 00:10:04,060 New students coming in. And how did you find the shift when you moved away from the PhD into the professional services community?

89 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:09,280 Was that what you expected or were there aspects of that that you hadn't anticipated?

90 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:18,700 And how did you feel how did you feel that that community received you as someone who hadn't finished your PhD for various reasons?

91 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:25,960 How did you find that sort of introduction to that new area in terms of the transition?

92 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:33,550 I think I was worried about that kind of concept of failure, and I would be perceived as some form of failure.

93 00:10:33,550 --> 00:10:40,300 And I think inevitably for some people, perhaps some academics, that that is how they will see it.

94 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:47,140 Because, you know, academia is is is the goal. And certainly, you know, I guess I felt like that.

95 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:51,910 But for the majority of people, that's just not the case.

96 00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:57,730 And I was worried about my credibility in terms of not having the PhD.

97 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:03,130 But again, actually, you know, I remember a conversation with one academic where.

98 00:11:03,130 --> 00:11:08,290 They found out I didn't have a Ph.D. and they seemed a bit kind of like a little bit taken aback,

99 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:16,480 and then they realised that I had spent five years teaching as a lecturer at Russell Group university.

100 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,020 And all of a sudden that, you know, that was completely, you know,

101 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:27,310 it was it became completely irrelevant that I didn't have the PhD because actually I have the experience of being an academic.

102 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:28,450 I've been a researcher.

103 00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:36,560 I may not have the letters before my name, but I have all of the kind of the credentials and the credibility through experience.

104 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:43,090 And that's what people value. And I find working with academic colleagues that it's really,

105 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:49,570 really valuable to be able to kind of empathise and really understand because I've been there, you know, I know what it's like.

106 00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:54,490 And also, you know, in terms of professional services.

107 00:11:54,490 --> 00:12:04,600 I think what I didn't know before I went into professional services is how many people with PhDs are in professional services,

108 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,640 particularly in research services, in the doctoral college and my.

109 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:19,530 I mean, my to my my sort of equivalent at the when I started and my boss, both PhDs, that's still the case.

110 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:25,100 You know, I work with colleagues in kind of research funding and grants and also stuff.

111 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:30,900 So many with PhDs. I'm currently working on a project with the Climate Emergency Sustainability Team.

112 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:35,080 The head of that team also has a PhD, and these are all professional services.

113 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,130 So actually kind of you know, they're not everybody,

114 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:48,570 but so many people in that kind of supporting function of the university have made that transition from academia and or some form of research.

115 00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:55,330 And so I felt that to be a really welcoming environment because it felt like.

116 00:12:55,330 --> 00:13:01,120 It felt like the right decision, if you see what I mean, I kind of stepped in and went, oh, this is this is the right thing.

117 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,600 This feels like my space and my people in a way.

118 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,840 And that must have been really important after.

119 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Going through a difficult period during the PhD to then changed career, which must have been incredibly intimidating,

120 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,960 to then move into that environment and feel welcome and know it's the right place for you.

121 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:29,360 That must have been really reassuring. And I think that that experience that you had, although of course, was awful at the time,

122 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:37,370 it does mean that you've been able to contribute more than someone who had a happy, easy experience.

123 00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:44,500 I agree that, you know what support a PhD student needs at different times.

124 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:50,960 And I think there's a lot of value in that. I think I think there's a lot of merit in the fact that, you know,

125 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:59,460 what students need and I'm interested in the researcher development programme that you've spearheaded at Exeter.

126 00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:06,230 And was that something that you very quickly, once you switched, made the shift in your career?

127 00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:13,460 Did you know that that's what you wanted to put together or did that come together slowly after years of seeing the gaps,

128 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:19,100 once you were actually on the on the inside of some of the training side of things?

129 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:28,130 A combination, really. So I, I mean, I inherited I inherited a programme and it's it's changed quite significantly since I took it over.

130 00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:36,170 But so there was the kind of there was the basis. So coming in as somebody knew, I had you know, I had a really good starting point.

131 00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:42,890 And then, you know, I had I had ideas, you know, right at the beginning of things I wanted to do.

132 00:14:42,890 --> 00:14:48,530 And, you know, we introduced this quickly in terms of wellbeing workshops and various different things,

133 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:52,550 all of which have evolved hugely since their introduction.

134 00:14:52,550 --> 00:15:03,170 But so there were some kind of immediate things and also moving more content online, which, you know, has turned out to work in our favour.

135 00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:09,620 But so there was some little kind of immediate things. But the rest has really been evolving.

136 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:15,890 And it wasn't until about three years ago that we kind of started the academic year and I went,

137 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:22,970 yeah, this is a this felt like a completely new programme. This felt like a completely new entity because it had been through sort of so many

138 00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:29,960 iterations of change and because the experience of being a researcher and like you said,

139 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:40,340 I think having a negative experience, like I do believe that makes me uniquely placed to understand what people really need,

140 00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:46,820 but also kind of being part of the landscape. And, you know, it's an area of practise and of scholarship in and of itself.

141 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:52,310 You know, there's a journal of researcher development and, you know.

142 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:57,980 It's its own kind of sector and its own research area and educational and career practise,

143 00:15:57,980 --> 00:16:03,890 and so, you know, you need to be kind of inducted into that to really understand.

144 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:10,450 And also, you know. Getting to know the university and getting to know the students, and that's something that I,

145 00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:17,370 I, I place a lot of importance of on is actually engaging with our academics,

146 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:29,480 meaningfully having difficult conversations and also, you know, engaging with our students and talking to them and being part of their community and.

147 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,070 Again, being open to having.

148 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:42,380 Difficult and challenging conversations, because I think sometimes.

149 00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:52,110 There's. I think sometimes people have a lot of things that they might want to say that's feedback or critique about things that they experience,

150 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:59,100 but they don't want to because they don't want to be perceived as annoying or argumentative or that, you know,

151 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:04,620 or they think actually the person doing this is really nice and didn't want to upset them or don't want to cause problems.

152 00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:11,970 And I'm always like, actually, if you don't tell me what the problems are, I can't offer I can't find the solutions.

153 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:15,840 And I'm always kind of like, tell me what's not working on the programme.

154 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,350 I don't take it personally. I need I need to know.

155 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:23,580 Because if I don't if you don't tell me what's wrong, then I'll assume everything's perfect.

156 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:28,020 I mean, I won't because that's not who I am. But I'll assume everything's fine and I'll continue as I am.

157 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:32,150 And actually that that doesn't achieve anything for any of us.

158 00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:39,800 So so I think there's a kind of. An openness that's been really important to kind of hearing what hasn't worked for

159 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:47,000 people in the past and what still doesn't work for people and and how we might.

160 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:59,300 Bring about more change. So I see it is a constantly evolving entity and also I can't I'm you know, we've interacted in various ways.

161 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:05,270 You will know I'm not very good at sitting still or letting things sit as they are.

162 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:13,220 Just because something works doesn't mean it can't be made better. And so, yeah, I'm never the kind of person that's going to go, oh, that's done.

163 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:18,660 Now I'm going to I'm going to sit back and relax. I'm always going to find.

164 00:18:18,660 --> 00:18:25,350 Find things that need addressing and improving, you are a true perfectionist, I think.

165 00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:31,980 Yeah, I'm just screaming perfectionist to me. But actually I remember coming along to one of the sessions,

166 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:37,530 I think it was in that year that you're talking about where the programme started to feel quite different.

167 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:41,760 I think it was twenty twenty eighteen or. Yeah, yeah.

168 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,520 And you ran a session on perfection, perfectionism.

169 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:52,320 And for me it was really useful because I was briefly I was at that point writing my literature review and I was finding that there was,

170 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,070 as you know, from your PhD, there's so much literature out there and you think, gosh,

171 00:18:56,070 --> 00:19:02,620 I've got to have everything in my literature review and those perfectionist tendencies come out and you think you've got to write everything,

172 00:19:02,620 --> 00:19:06,970 but you just need to use the most relevant things to situate your work.

173 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:12,390 And I remember finding that such a useful session and I think so many people did.

174 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:16,980 But it's also for you. You were so friendly at that session.

175 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:26,100 But then it's difficult for you, I assume, to separate what you're doing and getting feedback on your sessions and from you

176 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,670 as a person because you have put so much effort into creating the programme.

177 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:37,230 So do you find that difficult taking on, although you're super encouraging about receiving feedback, do you find that difficult?

178 00:19:37,230 --> 00:19:45,570 Have you had to become more resilient as more students do the programme and might provide feedback which might be constructive,

179 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:49,680 but nevertheless still might be suggesting you change the way you do things?

180 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,530 Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard. And I have had to.

181 00:19:55,530 --> 00:20:03,060 Develop a thicker skin, I mean, in some cases, we you know, in some ways we are used to that as an academic, you have to do that.

182 00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:11,700 You know, I remember getting my first peer review back and which was not the most fun I've ever had and and various different things,

183 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,300 you know, where we're used to being challenged and critiqued in that way.

184 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:23,460 I think very similarly to with, you know, your research, you know, it's something that you're passionate about and you put your heart and soul into.

185 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:31,940 So when. When there is criticism or when something's not working, it's it's hard to hear, but I.

186 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:35,130 I do try and I try as much as I can separate things out.

187 00:20:35,130 --> 00:20:44,960 I always try to distance myself from any feedback I get first and go, okay, just take a step back and actually just always see it as right.

188 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:53,150 How how can I use this? What can I do with that? So that it doesn't just sit as an email that somebody has sent me a comment that

189 00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:58,850 somebody makes to me at the end of the actual day actually becomes something,

190 00:20:58,850 --> 00:21:05,010 something changes as a result of it. And then that that feels like an in an empowering way to kind of deal with it.

191 00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:06,080 And also, you know,

192 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:17,180 apart from the odd case where people are in circumstances where they're particularly stressed or frustrated or overwhelmed or any of the above,

193 00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:27,590 where they might not articulate feedback in the kindest of ways, you know, that that's the exception rather than the rule most of the time,

194 00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:32,240 particularly because I approach it on a kind of like I want to know what's wrong.

195 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:38,690 People are honest, but they're fair. And and they don't kind of it doesn't come from a place of attack.

196 00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:46,850 It really comes from a place of wanting to enter into a dialogue and to and to make things better as well.

197 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:51,620 And so that feels like a completely different conversation to have with somebody, because, you know,

198 00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:59,600 I always get when people send feedback I get emails going, this is not about you or I know it's not your fault or something like that.

199 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:08,000 And actually, I don't need that because that's not necessary, because the tone and the way that they communicate, it's it's very supportive.

200 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:15,230 And I think, you know, that's the PGR community is incredibly vocal in so many ways, which is brilliant.

201 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:21,800 But actually, like in terms of, you know, being kind of embedded within it is so supportive.

202 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,380 So if there was someone listening to this conversation and they were feeling inspired by the way,

203 00:22:27,380 --> 00:22:36,570 you're talking about how we can change the support that is available for academics and PhD students,

204 00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:45,560 do you have advice on that shift from academia, as in being a PhD student into professional services?

205 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:54,440 Do you feel that you learnt, although it sounds like you had a relatively smooth transition into that aspect of your career,

206 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:02,930 do you have advice on what you might have done differently or how or perhaps even as well how someone can go about looking into these opportunities?

207 00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:11,390 Because I think that speaking as a PhD student at the moment, it can be difficult to know what's out there in the world of professional services.

208 00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:15,530 We tend to take it for granted. We get emails and we think that's a fact that looks like a really useful event.

209 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:20,390 I'll sign onto to that. But we don't know who's working behind the scenes and who does what.

210 00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:24,980 So do you have advice on how you navigated that shift, what you might have done differently,

211 00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:32,660 but also how we can as PhD students, how we can access those jobs or start to learn about what's out there?

212 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:40,310 Yeah, I think one of the reasons why the shift was quite easy for me is that so in Exeter my role is professional services in other institutions,

213 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:48,710 they sometimes call my role academic related, so much like the academic development team who run LTHE and all that sort of stuff.

214 00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:54,890 You know, we are roles are not purely professional services that they're very hybrid.

215 00:23:54,890 --> 00:24:03,110 And that's why what attracted me to it, because it allowed me to continue teaching and engaging with research and scholarship,

216 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:10,500 but in a slightly different kind of environment and context. So I think that's one of the reasons why.

217 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:22,580 It was a slightly easier. Transition for me, because it felt more familiar, I guess, to what I was already doing in terms of.

218 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:34,310 What I might have done differently. I think probably ties into the next thing, actually, which is about kind of how you find out about opportunities.

219 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:39,480 So, I mean, I just signed up for every I knew I wanted to move back to Devon.

220 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,460 I wasn't really sure what I was kind of qualified to do anything but work in higher education.

221 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:52,600 So I just signed up to. All the job alerts I could for, anything relating to higher education,

222 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,150 and I was getting literally everything I was getting like like rugby coach adverts to

223 00:24:58,150 --> 00:25:05,900 the university and also I wasn't filtering because I was aware that I knew so little.

224 00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:12,720 And. So part of it is a huge part of it is awareness raising, and I wish I'd done this earlier.

225 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:23,050 I wish I'd engaged with. Professional services earlier, and part of that is just kind of opening your eyes to the work that's going on around you.

226 00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:31,900 So, you know, if you're on a funded research grant or a DTP, there will be people supporting you.

227 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:37,240 There'll be some you know, if you're on a doctoral training partnership, there will be someone running the doctoral training partnership.

228 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:44,890 Quite possibly. That person has a Ph.D. And you know, if you're applying for grants as a postdoc,

229 00:25:44,890 --> 00:25:48,370 there will be someone supporting you in research services that will be called.

230 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:52,570 They will be called a research development manager, not researcher development manager.

231 00:25:52,570 --> 00:25:59,170 It's cause of much confusion. But.

232 00:25:59,170 --> 00:26:03,820 You know, quite a lot of my colleagues, who do that role have PhDs,

233 00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:16,620 it's a very different role because it's much more advisory and it's much more project management and focussed, but actually.

234 00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:28,020 You'd be surprised how applicable everything you learn as a Ph.D. student is, and even though it may feel like chalk and cheese,

235 00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:33,240 actually more often than not it's the same thing, but in a different language.

236 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,240 And I talk about this. So my partner is an academic and we talk about this a lot and he gets frustrated

237 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,890 when I talk about things like and when I talk about in management speak and,

238 00:26:43,890 --> 00:26:48,570 you know, stakeholder analysis and like and market driven.

239 00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:53,190 And I'm just trying to think of all the other kind of buzzwords and.

240 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:57,930 And I always say, but, you know, I talk about stakeholder mapping and stakeholder management,

241 00:26:57,930 --> 00:27:03,690 all I mean is talking to and engaging with students and academics and all the

242 00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:08,650 people that are relevant to the delivery of the researcher development programme.

243 00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:17,230 It's not anything different. It's just. The different language, I have another question for you, which is a difficult question,

244 00:27:17,230 --> 00:27:23,980 but you run your various sessions on perfectionism or resilience, et cetera,

245 00:27:23,980 --> 00:27:29,360 and I was wondering to what extent you feel that you take the advice, the advice that you give,

246 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:37,170 do you take on board yourself or do you just things like that only really resonate with you when you hear them from someone else?

247 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:45,480 Oh, that's a really good question, because one of the also one of the things that's been really important to me as a

248 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:52,440 teacher has been what what is referred to in the literature as authentic teaching.

249 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:59,430 So it's about bringing yourself into the classroom. And it's not about kind of, you know, exposing your deepest, darkest secrets.

250 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:08,490 It's about being open and honest, sharing your experience of what you're talking about, sharing your failures or those sorts of things.

251 00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:14,400 And so, you know, particularly where I haven't been very good at things like perfectionism, work, life balance.

252 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:20,100 I try and bring that in sessions because I feel it humanises, you know what I'm saying?

253 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:27,690 It grounds it in real world experience. But also, you know.

254 00:28:27,690 --> 00:28:36,230 Being honest about the fact that I know so I know all of the kind of things that I taught people about literature review,

255 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:37,500 so I talk about literature reviews,

256 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:48,000 I talk about working habits, I talk about not checking email about, you know, dedicating time, kind of environment and all those sorts of things.

257 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:54,360 I know that they're true nine times out of ten. I don't necessarily do them, even though I know that they're true.

258 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,870 I do sometimes do them. But it's you know, I don't always take my own advice.

259 00:29:00,870 --> 00:29:08,910 And but that's a learning process. And I think being honest about that and saying, you know, I know the way that I'm supposed to do things.

260 00:29:08,910 --> 00:29:13,680 I know that I'm supposed to take regular breaks and I'm supposed to get away from my desk at lunch.

261 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,250 But, you know, I don't always do it. That's part of that process.

262 00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:21,570 As part of that being open and humanising, it is saying, look, nobody's perfect.

263 00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:28,590 Just because I've told you you need like research shows you need to take a break every five every 25 minutes for five minutes.

264 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:33,330 Doesn't mean when you leave this room or leave this team's call or whatever.

265 00:29:33,330 --> 00:29:40,170 that I expect that you're going to do that from now on or that you should expect that of yourself.

266 00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:46,440 Yeah, absolutely. I know that when I have been to training sessions and the person delivering the training,

267 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,600 you might get the impression that they do all these things perfectly and it sort of creates a bit of a divide between you and them.

268 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,660 And you just think, well, I'm not like you, so I can't achieve any of this.

269 00:29:54,660 --> 00:30:00,390 Whereas when they say, actually, I'm not so good at this either, you think, OK, OK, that's that's that's normal.

270 00:30:00,390 --> 00:30:05,220 That's human. Maybe I can try and make a few of these changes that you're suggesting.

271 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,940 I think it's really important. I really am really passionate about it.

272 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:13,380 And it's it's also one of the reasons that one of the developments in the past couple of years,

273 00:30:13,380 --> 00:30:18,990 we've got postgraduate teaching assistants delivering on the researcher development programme.

274 00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:23,460 So some of those sessions like literature reviews and various different things they can deliver.

275 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:30,810 And I think that that's really important as well, because it has it has a currency and they can share their experiences in a way that

276 00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:36,420 really makes it it makes it really real and really tangible for the people attending.

277 00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:38,800 And that's really important to me.

278 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:45,310 We learn so much more when it's someone who can who we can relate to, and there's something quite fundamental about that.

279 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:49,630 And with all these types of training, which again comes back to your position,

280 00:30:49,630 --> 00:30:54,850 in your experience of your Ph.D. and why you are creating such wonderful things because of your

281 00:30:54,850 --> 00:31:01,520 experiences and how things that might during your PhD might have felt that it was the end of the world.

282 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:07,750 And now looking back, you're able to take that long view and see that actually you've contributed a lot to

283 00:31:07,750 --> 00:31:12,580 so many different individuals experiences of their Ph.D. because of your experiences.

284 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:18,790 Thank you for that. I really appreciate that. And I think that's where that kind of having conversations with people is really important.

285 00:31:18,790 --> 00:31:27,070 You know, if you're if you're not certain about an academic career and whether it's for you actually, you know,

286 00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:37,570 talking to your supervisors or if that doesn't feel like it's the right thing reaching out to other people in your department and people like me,

287 00:31:37,570 --> 00:31:42,850 other people in professional services to just have those conversations with.

288 00:31:42,850 --> 00:31:52,090 That's something that I really wish that I'd done because I think I probably would have got to where to where I am kind of in my career,

289 00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:54,190 but also kind of in my life.

290 00:31:54,190 --> 00:32:04,390 much more quickly and I, I think because I just would have been aware of this kind of whole of the world and way of doing.

291 00:32:04,390 --> 00:32:05,470 Yeah, absolutely.

292 00:32:05,470 --> 00:32:13,570 I think it's also worth remembering that of the people, people who reach out to you to say thank you for that session, that was really helpful.

293 00:32:13,570 --> 00:32:18,340 They'll be twice as many people who found it just as helpful but haven't emailed

294 00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:24,250 And that's something like forgive me, for example, I've never reached out to you to say that I've appreciated everything you've done.

295 00:32:24,250 --> 00:32:33,730 But you've been sort of part of my experience as a PhD student, as a PGR from master's onwards all the way through my Exeter experience.

296 00:32:33,730 --> 00:32:37,060 But I haven't ever reached out to and admittedly I now know it is.

297 00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:40,280 I should have done and I haven't reached out to you to say thank you.

298 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:48,850 So I think things like Twitter, something like Twitter is is a good way, because I saw you spoke about this and I thought, oh, interesting.

299 00:32:48,850 --> 00:32:53,620 I'd love to know a bit more about your career. So Twitter does have its lot of criticism.

300 00:32:53,620 --> 00:32:57,010 It does have a benefit. It does have its benefits.

301 00:32:57,010 --> 00:33:07,940 You know, you can't you can't expect people to kind of constantly tell you how good and how wonderful you are and because it's just not realistic and.

302 00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:13,880 Not always true, but also it's just it's the wrong thing to kind of be motivated by, I think.

303 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:21,560 But then but then sometimes when so when it does come, it like makes it all the more meaningful.

304 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:29,090 So I'm I'm actually tonight is the Guild teaching awards and one of our PGRs nominated me for outstanding research support.

305 00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:35,750 And I've had a good little cry about that already and I will have a good little cry about it again later, I'm sure,

306 00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:44,330 just because it just completely moved and that someone would take the time and the and the energy to do that.

307 00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:50,960 And it's really meaningful. So I think it's about not expecting it and knowing, like you say,

308 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:56,720 that quite a lot of the time you're having an impact and people are just going on with that because you're having an impact.

309 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,200 People are able to just go on with their lives and you don't necessarily hear it.

310 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,270 And that's good. That's fine. I'm you know, I'm I'm quite happy with that.

311 00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:12,080 But there is little there's little nuggets and there's little moments they can be really, really meaningful.

312 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:18,950 And like you like you were saying about motivation, that's kind of that really pushes me forward,

313 00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:28,250 particularly when things are tough like they've been for the past year and where, you know, university systems feel like they're against us.

314 00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:36,380 And I'm kind of. You know, almost shouting in meetings, PGRs exist, you know,

315 00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:41,960 which everyone's at the university is going to be completely fed up with after six years of me doing it.

316 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:51,950 But you know, it. It makes it. It's perhaps not it makes it worthwhile, it's a reminder of why.

317 00:34:51,950 --> 00:35:02,360 Yeah, yeah, and where do you where do you see yourself going or or, you know, someone who thinks too far ahead, if you if you had to,

318 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:09,440 you'd like to be in a few years time or where you'd like the programmes that you're delivering to be, if not you personally.

319 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:16,240 Have you had thoughts about that. Yeah. Yeah, I, I'm quite a kind of.

320 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:22,810 I am unashamedly ambitious, I think that's probably the way that I would put it and other people as well.

321 00:35:22,810 --> 00:35:26,530 I've never been fond of and I've always have been since I was little.

322 00:35:26,530 --> 00:35:35,820 And, you know, I I come from a really working class background, but with parents and with the extended family who were really kind of like.

323 00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:44,520 If you want to do it, do it. And so I've never kind of, you know, I've been really lucky to have been brought up with that kind of attitude where I,

324 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,990 I, I have that kind of that sense of self belief.

325 00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:53,310 It's not always self esteem or kind of, but it's there's that that kind of fuel.

326 00:35:53,310 --> 00:36:06,120 And so, you know, I, I would like to in the future, move on to kind of a senior leadership role in the university in higher education,

327 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:12,990 where I can be kind of operating at a higher level and a more strategic level to kind of create more top down change.

328 00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:20,080 So I guess it's about having a wider impact. You know, when I taught undergraduates, we had.

329 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:26,630 You know, maybe 50 students in a year group, we were smaller groups and sometimes quite smaller than that.

330 00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:33,170 And so, you know, at any one time, I could be teaching sort of 200 students and it was great and you having quite a wide range of impact,

331 00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:36,110 you know, now with two to two and a half thousand PGRs

332 00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:44,060 Again, the level of impact on the student experience is kind of upped its game from moving to be an academic into this.

333 00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:54,410 Right. Be nice to kind of in the future, make another jump that allows me to to create change and have impact on an even wider range of students.

334 00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:58,650 Yeah, I am. I've enjoyed hearing a lot about your career.

335 00:36:58,650 --> 00:37:05,240 It's inspiring to hear about the way that you've you've sort of always known potentially where you're going.

336 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:10,940 If you haven't maybe if you haven't even realised it yourself. It sounds like you, even when you were young and you were going off to university,

337 00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:17,840 had these different ideas and your experiences have really shaped where you've gone and you've gone you've sort of gone with the flow.

338 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:25,790 And that's meant that you've had what sounds like quite a satisfying career because you've done what you know, you can contribute well to.

339 00:37:25,790 --> 00:37:32,630 And I think quite often we don't tend to listen to that and we get worried about moving beyond such and boundaries.

340 00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:40,700 And I think your career is a testament to the fact that if you if you take that, if you make the leap, it does usually pay off.

341 00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:45,800 And I think as well, like trusting your gut is really important to me.

342 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,090 And actually, you know, I work very closely with my colleague Kate Foster's career coach.

343 00:37:50,090 --> 00:37:55,670 And we talk about this quite often. And we've talked about my career as kind of an example of things.

344 00:37:55,670 --> 00:38:04,220 And we talk about it is something it's called planned happenstance. So it's those kind of accidents that happen like me, like me getting this job.

345 00:38:04,220 --> 00:38:10,820 It was all kind of by chance. And the timing was right and and and various different things.

346 00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:14,150 It wasn't like this was where I was planning for my career to go.

347 00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:23,870 But actually it ended up being the right move in the right decision, because I kind of trusted my I trusted my intuition and I trusted my gut.

348 00:38:23,870 --> 00:38:26,830 And and I knew.

349 00:38:26,830 --> 00:38:36,420 You know, I reflected and thought about at this point about what worked for me and what I wanted out of a job and, you know, it took me.

350 00:38:36,420 --> 00:38:41,040 Six years of being an academic to realise it was the wrong thing. Hmm.

351 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,920 So anyone listening to this and thinking that maybe they'd be interested in a

352 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:49,110 career in professional services is to contact you as a matter of priority,

353 00:38:49,110 --> 00:38:53,930 to have a discussion. They welcome to. They are welcome to come.

354 00:38:53,930 --> 00:38:57,990 And, you know, I've had those conversations with lots of people over the years,

355 00:38:57,990 --> 00:39:05,330 and it's a nice thing to be able to do because, again, it's that sense of it's something that I didn't know.

356 00:39:05,330 --> 00:39:08,870 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, well, thank you very much.

357 00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:12,950 Thank you for letting me had the pleasure, the privilege of interviewing you.

358 00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:15,680 And I know that you don't want to you don't want it to be all about you.

359 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:21,230 But I would also like to say, on behalf of the PGR community, a big thank you for all the work that you have done.

360 00:39:21,230 --> 00:39:25,370 And best of luck for the enjoy the awards tonight.

361 00:39:25,370 --> 00:39:29,870 I will. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

362 00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:37,070 Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. Since the podcast was recorded, we obviously had the teaching awards.

363 00:39:37,070 --> 00:39:41,510 I did not win an award, but I'm still incredibly,

364 00:39:41,510 --> 00:39:51,660 incredibly touched and moved to have been nominated and to have been shortlisted amongst my academic peers is fantastic.

365 00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:56,900 And another update career wise for me since then is that I am about to go part time in researcher

366 00:39:56,900 --> 00:40:01,730 development so that I can go on secondment for a year as a research and EDI manager.

367 00:40:01,730 --> 00:40:07,940 So I'm going to be working at the University of Exeter to set up a working group and develop an action plan for making,

368 00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:13,430 ah, research processes and structures more inclusive.

369 00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:23,910 So, you know, it's the next stage I've gone from two and a half thousand PGRs to 6000 plus researchers that I'm looking after.

370 00:40:23,910 --> 00:40:29,540 So it's a really exciting move for me. And that's it for this episode.

371 00:40:29,540 --> 00:40:44,016 Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,910 --> 00:00:23,720 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter.

2 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,600 Hello and welcome back to Beyond Your Research Degree.

3 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:33,830 I'm really delighted to be back with you after our summer hiatus and to be bringing to you a conversation with Dr. Ruth Gilligan.

4 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:38,810 Ruth is a senior lecturer and academic, but also because she's in creative writing.

5 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:46,010 She is a published author. And so I thought it would be interesting for us to have a conversation with someone who is an

6 00:00:46,010 --> 00:00:52,820 academic but maintains a professional profile and creative practise alongside their academic work.

7 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:57,890 So Ruth, happy to introduce herself, certainly. Well, firstly, thanks so much for having me.

8 00:00:57,890 --> 00:01:04,400 It's lovely to be chatting to you and reminiscing a little bit about my time at Exeter.

9 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:12,650 I came to Exeter in two thousand and eleven to start my PhD in creative writing,

10 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:18,110 and then I actually went straight for my PhD into my first academic job.

11 00:01:18,110 --> 00:01:24,860 I the first interview I went for my creative writing role had come up at the University of Birmingham.

12 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:31,010 So despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I was like, ah sure, I'll apply and see what happens.

13 00:01:31,010 --> 00:01:40,790 And anyway, I got offered a job. So I started as a lecturer in creative writing at the University of Birmingham in kind of August twenty fourteen,

14 00:01:40,790 --> 00:01:44,690 at which point I was still in the final two or three months of my PhD.

15 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:50,900 So I was kind of trying to pretend that I was a lecturer and seem very grown up and important to my students,

16 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:58,880 despite the fact that I was secretly still a student myself and trying furiously to dot all the T's and cross all the I's on my thesis.

17 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:07,040 So yeah, it was a bit of a mad time, but yeah, then I started out at Birmingham and seven, maybe eight years later I'm still there.

18 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:16,610 So I'm now a senior lecturer. Since that time, I've also published two more novels and I had published three novels before my PhD at Exeter,

19 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:23,660 but I went on to publish two more, one of which was the novel that I wrote as part of my creative writing PhD.

20 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:26,960 And then my most recent book The Butchers came out last year.

21 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:35,300 So yes, I am now kind of fully fledged novelist, academic, creative writing lecturer and still very much in touch with Sam

22 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:41,090 And Sinead my two wonderful supervisors and have very, very fond memories of working with them.

23 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:43,490 There's a number of things I think I want to pick up on in that.

24 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:50,120 And the first is something that comes up a surprising amount, actually, in talking to people for this podcast,

25 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:58,430 which is about kind of seeing an opportunity when you've not actually finished the PhD and going for it and getting it,

26 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:05,060 and then how you go about juggling, working and finishing up.

27 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:13,820 Could you talk a little bit about what that experience was like, kind of managing the workload of working whilst also finishing the PhD?

28 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:21,350 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, part of me looks back at that and thinks, what did I eat for breakfast that morning?

29 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:26,870 That I had the kind of gumption to apply for a job, despite the fact that I hadn't even finished the PhD.

30 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:34,940 In the spirit of full disclosure, the job was actually a senior lecturer role, which I definitely wasn't qualified for,

31 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:42,620 but I applied and they ended up basically giving the senior lectureship to someone else who was duly qualified,

32 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:46,820 but then creating a new lecturer in creative writing role, which they offered to me.

33 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:55,700 So I'm a big believer in. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If I hadn't applied and taking my punch, yeah, that wouldn't have played out that way.

34 00:03:55,700 --> 00:04:01,760 So, yeah, I'm a big believer. Just throwing your hat in the ring and see what happens in terms of managing the workload.

35 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 I mean, you know, realistically, I was at the tail end of the PhD.

36 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Like, I'm not someone who had kind of left all the work at the last minute, like both Sam and Sinead, my supervisors,

37 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,130 like they've been very good about making sure that I was making steady progress

38 00:04:16,130 --> 00:04:20,090 and I'd already written multiple drafts of both the creative and the critical.

39 00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:25,640 So although those last few months are always going to be quite panicked and quite frantic,

40 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,750 just because you are about to submit this thing that you've been working on for three years,

41 00:04:29,750 --> 00:04:33,500 it wasn't like I still had kind of half the thing to write. Like I had.

42 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:39,860 I had written multiple drafts. I was just kind of finessing and going through my bibliography and all that kind of boring stuff.

43 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:41,340 So, yeah, it was a lot.

44 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:50,270 But it also coincided with me like I moved to Birmingham and when I first started the job, so I kind of was in a new city, my my partner.

45 00:04:50,270 --> 00:04:54,050 Who's that at the time He was my boyfriend. Now he's my husband. he at that same time

46 00:04:54,050 --> 00:05:01,640 Ictually moved to Singapore for six months. So I just kind of find myself living in this little flat in Birmingham on my own.

47 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,740 I didn't really know anyone in the city. I was starting a new job. I was also finishing my Ph.D.

48 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:10,660 So, yeah, I probably wasn't the most social time of my life.

49 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:15,130 Fundamentally, I managed to get it all done, and I'm delighted that it played out the way it did.

50 00:05:15,130 --> 00:05:19,630 You know, my my big fear, the reason I kind of pursued doing it that way,

51 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:24,610 even though it was a bit nuts, was I think like so many people in academia, the fear of, like,

52 00:05:24,610 --> 00:05:31,510 not knowing what the next step is going to be or the idea of kind of having a gap before you figure out the next thing you know,

53 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:36,850 have plenty of friends and colleagues who've had that situation where there is a gap when they go from one thing to the other.

54 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:42,400 But I know from my own personality type that I would have just been absolutely freaking out if I didn't have something lined up.

55 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:48,850 So I would rather kind of take on too much in there, be perhaps a bit of overlap rather than being in the desert, not knowing.

56 00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:54,340 So, yeah, it was worth it in that regards. I wanted to kind of take a step back,

57 00:05:54,340 --> 00:06:03,580 step back to that point of applying now and I'm really interested when you said that it was kind of a it was a senior lecturer role,

58 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:06,400 but you kind of nothing ventured, nothing gained, kind of went for it.

59 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,850 And actually, you may not have got that role, but something else came out of it.

60 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:16,250 Were there any particular challenges that you felt that you were coming up against because you were still a Ph.D. student?

61 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:23,990 Yeah, and it's a it's a great question, I think I should say, again, in the interest of full disclosure, like I mentioned briefly,

62 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:29,780 but like despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I had published three novels before I did the book.

63 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:36,110 So I, um, I do appreciate that that might not be the case with all PhD students.

64 00:06:36,110 --> 00:06:38,750 So I kind of had the publishing track records.

65 00:06:38,750 --> 00:06:47,600 I think the big gap and this is where kind of Sam and Sinead were particularly helpful was because it was my first academic application

66 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:57,350 interview and ultimately post just kind of plugging in a little bit to university speak like I didn't really know at that point,

67 00:06:57,350 --> 00:07:09,230 having only been a student albeit a Ph.D. students, I learnt phrases like REF and outputs and impact and all these kind of buzzwords that

68 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:18,080 we're going to come up in my interview and I and they were going to quiz me on. So kind of swotting up a little bit on that vernacular.

69 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,550 But yeah, I think, you know, in those situations, I'm kind of like, what's the worst thing that could happen?

70 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:30,950 I just think that, as you said, just getting your name in front of people and maybe they don't even shortlist you for that particular role,

71 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:39,410 but they'll still lodge at the back of their minds the next time they are looking for something or someone with your set of expertise,

72 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:46,100 your or kind of a prior prior knowledge of you were already going to be at the back of their minds.

73 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:51,860 I do think, like I read various things as well, that I do think there's something slightly gendered as well in terms of,

74 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:55,940 you know, they've done various studies whereby women only apply for jobs,

75 00:07:55,940 --> 00:08:05,120 where they have all of the required skills, whereas men are much more likely if they've got half or even less, they'll be they'll still go for it.

76 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:14,060 So I think that I am always keen in life to kind of be challenging those kind of gender stereotypes or whatever.

77 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,850 So, yeah, I just I just thought, what what's the worst that can happen?

78 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:23,480 And I think, you know, like, I remember going for my undergraduate interview and I remember, like,

79 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:31,250 the last thing someone said to me going in to class was like, they don't expect you to be perfect and to know everything.

80 00:08:31,250 --> 00:08:36,800 But just having that willingness to learn and that potential, if they can see that, that's really all they want.

81 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,280 So I don't think it's totally dissimilar within a job capacity.

82 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,930 Like with the academic world, they could see that I'd never, you know I'd done teaching and stuff at Exeter,

83 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:49,100 but I've never worked full time in an academic role before.

84 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:56,840 But they could see that I was able to, as I said, swot up on that front I and familiarise myself with the kind of university landscape.

85 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,590 And I was going to give it literally everything. So as long as they saw thatthey knew that I was going to be able to to do the job.

86 00:09:03,590 --> 00:09:09,050 And as I said, seven years later, I'm still there. So they were right.

87 00:09:09,050 --> 00:09:17,750 Very much so, and I think that's really important and that that point about it's not about perfection, it's about potential.

88 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:22,010 It's about willingness to learn and openness to that.

89 00:09:22,010 --> 00:09:31,550 And it got me thinking about what experiences you had when you were doing your Ph.D. that you found were

90 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:38,570 really beneficial in helping you kind of apply for and secure that first job with that particular things,

91 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:46,850 or was it just the kind of guidance and mentorship of your supervisors? I mean, as I mentioned, I did so I did do quite a lot of teaching.

92 00:09:46,850 --> 00:09:54,680 I and then also while I was there, I did my I think it was called the LTHE

93 00:09:54,680 --> 00:10:01,160 So the learning and teaching and higher education. I did the kind of first bit

94 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,110 So I remember doing that. And it was one of those things where you go along and you don't really know what to expect.

95 00:10:06,110 --> 00:10:12,260 And some of it was quite theoretical and some of it was quite abstract and some of it was quite practical and Hands-On.

96 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:15,920 And inevitably, though, when you're doing the breakout groups of the workshop sessions,

97 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,580 you get lunch with the the scientists who are like, what creative writing that isn't a real subject.

98 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:23,360 Why are you going to try and teach that? They have to spend half of the time defending it.

99 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,050 But all that being said, I did actually find it really, really useful.

100 00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:31,700 And that was kind of my first induction into kind of really thinking about teaching

101 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:36,860 and lecturing and what what it involves and what kind of teacher I might become.

102 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:40,220 So I did actually find that really useful and then being able to put it into practise.

103 00:10:40,220 --> 00:10:51,840 As I said with those sessions, I also taught at the Edinburgh University run this the Scottish Universities International Summer School thing,

104 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,670 and it's just a four week course, but they get students from all over the world.

105 00:10:55,670 --> 00:11:01,250 And basically I was tasked with designing and then delivering a four week creative writing course

106 00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:09,590 for these these overseas students who kind of ranged from anything eighteen to twenty five.

107 00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:16,220 So that was like another great opportunity for me. And this time I had complete autonomy to decide what what they were going to read,

108 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:18,680 what they were going to do, how the whole thing was going to be structured.

109 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,180 So again, I was slightly throwing me in at the deep end because I had had so much freedom.

110 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:29,540 But again, it was a brilliant opportunity for me to kind of flex my teaching chops.

111 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:32,960 I think that's mixing multiple metaphors, but yeah, just to give it a go.

112 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,210 So then when I did finally start Birmingham, I did actually have quite a lot of not a lot,

113 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,000 but like a good amount of teaching experience under my belt.

114 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:47,000 And I could also say that I have been in a position whereby I'd have to kind of curate and design a course, myself.

115 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,930 So that was a really, really useful stuff. Yeah, I was thinking that and that summer school opportunity, actually,

116 00:11:52,930 --> 00:11:58,870 that's that's where you kind of have that additional experience where you go beyond teaching

117 00:11:58,870 --> 00:12:04,270 seminars or doing lectures and to actually thinking about designing and setting curriculum,

118 00:12:04,270 --> 00:12:10,240 which, of course, is not something you necessarily get to get involved in when you were a Ph.D. student,

119 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,100 but is a huge part of being being an academic.

120 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:20,410 Yeah, and I think I'm always kind of encouraging people to look look out for opportunities like that.

121 00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:22,750 I think, you know, within the creative writing world, anyway,

122 00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:30,710 there are various summer schools or workshop scenarios or one off taster's or a six week courses or whatever.

123 00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:36,520 So I think like anything, getting anything like that under your belt, I think is is hugely useful.

124 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:44,800 You know, it's not necessarily the case that you just have to have loads and loads and loads of very specific undergraduate or postgraduate teaching.

125 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,300 It's just any sort of any sort of experience, especially, as you said,

126 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:55,100 if there is some kind of design or management element attached to that, the more so the better.

127 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:59,450 Was there anything particular in research terms that you did,

128 00:12:59,450 --> 00:13:09,260 or was it just kind of the process of doing the Ph.D. that really kind of stood you in good stead to then move on to an academic role?

129 00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:10,610 And it's a good question.

130 00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:18,690 I think the whole point of me doing the PhD, this is already alluded to like I had published three novels before, before starting at Exeter.

131 00:13:18,690 --> 00:13:23,850 But those novels were very much they were very commercial. They were very much based on personal experience,

132 00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:30,500 like they were kind of all of kind of young people in Dublin growing up and doing stupid things and finding their way.

133 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:37,310 Well, it's very much based on my own life and my own encounters. And I sort of after the third one was published,

134 00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:42,320 I sort of realised that although I definitely did want to keep writing and publishing and going forwards,

135 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,540 these weren't necessarily the kinds of books that I was interested in and in pursuing.

136 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:51,380 So I kind of took a break to figure out what kind of books do I want to do.

137 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:56,690 And I realised that the books I love to read were actually books that had nothing to do with my own personal experience.

138 00:13:56,690 --> 00:14:01,220 You know, there were novels set in different portions of history or engaging with different cultures or

139 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:05,510 parts of the world or whatever where and where I kind of learn something when I was reading that.

140 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:08,840 So I was really interested in, well, could I write a book like that? Like,

141 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:16,590 could I write a book that would require me to go away and do a lot of research and interview a lot of people and really kind of expand my horizons.

142 00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:21,740 And I'm kind of right outside of my own first hand experience. So that was a real journey for me.

143 00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:28,760 And that was what was kind of about. I was doing a lot of research in the very traditional sense, like I did a lot of archival work.

144 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,440 I went that the novel was based around the history of the Jewish community in Ireland.

145 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,320 So I travelled all over Ireland interviewing people. I was down in Cork and some archives there.

146 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,220 I actually went to Israel to interview the Irish community that's now living out there.

147 00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:48,770 So I really was doing that kind of library based or to field research kind of

148 00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:54,530 stuff that you might not necessarily associate with with with creative writing.

149 00:14:54,530 --> 00:15:00,410 And then, of course, I had folders and folders and folders, notes. And I was like, OK, how on earth do I translate this into a novel?

150 00:15:00,410 --> 00:15:06,500 So a lot of my PhD was then trying to marry this kind of factual research that I'd

151 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:11,750 acquired with a story and characters and craft and all of those kinds of things.

152 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:20,640 So so figuring out all of that was was a real took a long time and that's why I needed the three years of a PhD.

153 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Also, as I mentioned, the novel was about the Jewish community in Ireland.

154 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:25,970 I'm not Jewish myself.

155 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:34,910 So I was very aware when I was working on this project of my own kind of position and and whether it was it OK that I was writing this novel,

156 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:39,590 how ethically what were the challenges formerly Practically all this kind of stuff.

157 00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:41,870 And then, as I mentioned right at the start,

158 00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:50,360 the critical part of my PhD was then looking at other Irish authors who have similarly written about minority communities or groups that

159 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:57,800 they're not necessarily a member of themselves and kind of the way that they have navigated that potentially kind of tricky territory.

160 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:04,400 So that academic thinking and looking at other authors that very much informed my own practise.

161 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:13,550 So, again, that kind of circular process of research and reflection and then writing, just figuring out how that all works.

162 00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:18,860 And then, you know, it was lovely that after the PhD, I went on to publish the novel,

163 00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:23,520 but I also went on to publish the critical portion as an academic article in the Journal.

164 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:29,120 So even at that point, I was I was still thinking of my research as both creative and critical.

165 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,710 And I know that when I went to the interview of Birmingham, that was something they were really keen on,

166 00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:39,560 that I was someone who was doing both these kinds of research side by side and saw them very much in

167 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,630 conversation and informing each other and was going to kind of generate different types of output.

168 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:48,560 So that really helped me kind of figure out what kind of academic I wanted to be.

169 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,370 I didn't necessarily want to be just an English academic or just a creative writing academic.

170 00:16:52,370 --> 00:17:03,710 I kind of wanted to be both. I think that's really important and acknowledging the kind of the identity side of things, even if you're not kind of.

171 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:10,100 A creative practitioner or doing kind of practise both works of art about thinking about your identity.

172 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:12,680 Increasingly, PhDs are interdisciplinary.

173 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,220 And so then there's a question about, well, where do you sit in terms of discipline and department and and those aspects of identity as well?

174 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:27,650 It's something that a lot of people are grappling with in lots of different ways when they're looking at moving into an academic post.

175 00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:32,600 And I wondered if you could say a little bit more about the job application and the

176 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,640 interview and what what it practically involves the did you have to submit a CV,

177 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:43,870 a cover letter, a supporting statement? Like what? Do you remember what actually you had to.

178 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:54,770 Had to do as part of the process. Yeah, so I definitely remember all the things you've mentioned in terms of CV, a personal statement, a kind of.

179 00:17:54,770 --> 00:18:01,530 You know, various samples of my work, et cetera. The main thing I remember is the day itself.

180 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:05,350 There were kind of two parts to it. The first was a presentation.

181 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:12,660 So I had to give a presentation. And there about 20 people that I remember being slightly overwhelmed by how many people were in the room.

182 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:20,430 And I get I basically gave a presentation on sort of what I've just spoken about in terms of the kind of creative and critical aspects

183 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:30,390 of my research and how those two things are in conversation and how I might be able to envisage them developing going forward.

184 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:34,290 So that was in the morning. And then they made us have lunch with all the other candidates,

185 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:40,710 which seems like one of the cruellest things anyone's ever done is to make you have lunch with people that you're competing with for the same role.

186 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:44,800 So I think they've actually discontinued that because that is horrid.

187 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:54,660 It was awful. And then in the afternoon, then I had an interview with about eight people, like it was, again, quite overwhelming.

188 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:58,470 Yeah, some from creative writing, some from English, some from the wider college.

189 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:05,700 And then I think they have to have a couple of people from completely different parts of the university just almost as kind of a neutral party.

190 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,910 So it was like a guy there from geography and there was someone else there.

191 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:15,840 So, yeah, it was a real mix. And they asked me like a really wide range of questions.

192 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:25,920 I mean, I think I remember one woman. Her main job was to make me list out, like what we're going to be my four output's over the next few years.

193 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Again, just universities thinking in REF terms and always wanting to know what items of research you're going to actually produce.

194 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:41,040 So I sort of had to come up with the list of some things that I did actually end up delivering.

195 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,290 But I was kind of put on the spot a little bit with that one. They want to talk a little bit about impact and

196 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:52,500 So that's another. When I was interviewing back in twenty fourteen, I was kind of a buzz words.

197 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:56,520 I was just starting to emerge and it's now consumed my life for the last few years.

198 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,590 I'm actually now in to lead for our schools. So while talking and thinking about impact.

199 00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:05,490 But back then I was just a PhD student who had learned a new word recently.

200 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:15,900 So I had to kind of real off ideas. I had to pertaining to that. So, yeah, it was a bit it was it was all, you know, friendly but marginally intense.

201 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,320 And then I went away thinking, well, I've given it a shot.

202 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:29,280 That's fine. And then they actually the head of college actually emailed me that night actually to say, yeah, we're not you know,

203 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:36,570 obviously you're far too junior to get the senior lecturer role that we had originally advertised,

204 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:40,110 but we're actually going to create this new role for you. Would you like it?

205 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:45,090 So that happened within a matter of hours, which was on Monday.

206 00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:48,390 So that was a good day trip to Birmingham,

207 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:58,950 although a lot of people's anxiety about job applications in the application process is about the unknown and what it involves.

208 00:20:58,950 --> 00:21:06,090 And actually it involves some pretty standard things. But at the same time, you know, there's some things that you might get in terms of,

209 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:11,400 you know, we are driven by outputs and impact and all of those buzzwords.

210 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:19,200 And so, you know, being able to talk about how, you know, what your what your plan is for your research outputs,

211 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:29,520 what if you've got some publications that you'd like to adapt parts of your PhD to become or any kind of ideas about,

212 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:30,720 you know, spinoff project  from your work

213 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:39,690 actually that sort of thinking about what might be possible in the future is quite helpful because it's likely to be asked about in that context,

214 00:21:39,690 --> 00:21:43,350 because they want to know what you'll do when you're there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

215 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:49,410 I think I hadn't quite anticipated how much how far forward they would be looking

216 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:53,760 because I thought I was coming in really well prepared with this idea that,

217 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,340 like, wow, I'm writing a creative and critical thing for my my PhD.

218 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:04,020 So hopefully going forward, I'd like to publish both of those aspects.

219 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:10,380 So there's two outputs already lined up and almost ready to go.

220 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:15,240 And they were like, yeah, OK, cool and what about After that. I was like, oh, right, OK.

221 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:23,700 And I remember it's so funny. I remember them just like racking racking my brain because obviously I was put on the spot and I did at the very,

222 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:32,440 very back of my mind, have a tiny, tiny germ of an idea for the next novel and all.

223 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,630 I really had very little except that I knew I wanted to be called the butchers.

224 00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:41,870 So I remember saying that as I was like oh my next books going to be called The Butchers, and it's going to be set in rural Ireland.

225 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:48,180 I made it up. I honestly didn't know I hadn't even applied my brain to thinking about it because I was still finishing the previous one.

226 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:54,530 And I remember during that really quite awkward lunch with the other candidates, two of my.

227 00:22:54,530 --> 00:23:01,280 Colleagues came up to me separately in the lunch, and their main comment was wow The Butchers is such a good title for a novel.

228 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,980 I can't wait to read it. And I was laughing to myself. I was like, this is literally something I've kind of come up with on the spot.

229 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:09,590 Like they both said it to me.

230 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:15,970 And then when Ninefolds, which was my novel, did end up getting published and I was moving on to thinking about the next thing,

231 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:18,980 I was like, maybe I should actually write that book called The Butchers.

232 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:24,920 And sure enough, I spent the next four years researching and writing a novel called The Butchers, which came out last year.

233 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,260 So what sort of was a bit of a blg on the day of my interview ultimately became reality.

234 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:36,820 So there you go. And not only that, but one, the Royal Society of Literature.

235 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,230 Ondjante, I'm not even know if I'm saying that, right, Ondjante

236 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:45,740 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is fabulous.

237 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:53,300 Congratulations and it's fascinating to me to hear that, you know,

238 00:23:53,300 --> 00:24:01,100 this prize winning book came from a kind of something that sat in the back of your head in a job interview and came out.

239 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:06,120 Yeah, well, once I'd said it out loud I felt like I probably had to go away and do it. And just so I'm probably glad I did.

240 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,480 noe as you said, it went onto to do quite well. Say Happy Days.

241 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,930 I always like to end on kind of a twofold note, which is.

242 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:28,500 In terms of the reality of being an academic and making that transition from being a Ph.D. student to to a lecturer.

243 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:38,480 What do you wish that you knew or what advice do you wish you'd been given before you made that transition?

244 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:47,720 That is a good question. I mean, I think one thing I'm really at this point, like I haven't

245 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:55,040 Explicitly said it, but I am aware that it is quite unusual to go straight from your PhD to an academic job and not do a postdoc.

246 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:01,400 So I know that like the majority of my colleagues, that is the route they took.

247 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:08,030 So I sort of skipped that stage, mostly because I think postdocs in creative writing just weren't really a thing at that point

248 00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:13,700 So it's just like a slightly different way. The discipline works. I think just harking back to our earlier conversation, to be honest,

249 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:20,540 I think the main thing I wish people had told me is a just just take a punch, just like if something comes off,

250 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:26,180 like even if sometimes even now when we're advertising jobs or other institutions,

251 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:32,540 advertising jobs, it might say creative writing, lecturer brackets, poetry, focus.

252 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:38,810 And you're thinking to yourself, oh, rats. I write short stories. So I'm not going to be I'm not going to be suitable for that.

253 00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:43,970 Just apply. Just apply. You never know again. They might not get any good poetry people.

254 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,440 They might see your application and think,

255 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,350 actually this person can slot in here and we can just move some stuff around and cover the poetry stuff some other way.

256 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:55,970 I just think literally, as I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

257 00:25:55,970 --> 00:26:01,610 And then finally, just to reiterate that, like when it comes to the application and the interview process,

258 00:26:01,610 --> 00:26:05,930 if it is a question of just kind of brushing up on you're kind of university speak

259 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,360 and trying to get your head around exactly what they're going to ask you,

260 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:14,540 just talk to your supervisors or other lecturers who've been through this, because that was honestly that was a game changer.

261 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:20,480 I can still remember the cafe in East London where I had lunch with one of my supervisors,

262 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,910 and she walked me through all these key terms and was able to predict all the questions they would ask me.

263 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,970 And if it weren't for that brunch, like I would have been nowhere.

264 00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:36,500 But because she had so kindly prepped me and was able to anticipate exactly the kind of notes that I would need to hit, like I got the job.

265 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,910 So I just think don't be afraid to kind of ask for advice from people who have been

266 00:26:40,910 --> 00:26:46,000 through it and who know exactly what what buttons are going to need to press.

267 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:54,460 Thank you so much to Ruth for taking the time to talk to me. I thought there was so much in there in terms of advice about applying for academic jobs.

268 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:55,540 That's really, really pertinent.

269 00:26:55,540 --> 00:27:06,190 And I've actually created an infographic to go alongside the podcast that capture some of that really, really fabulous insight.

270 00:27:06,190 --> 00:27:22,046 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

1 00:00:10,910 --> 00:00:23,720 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter.

2 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,600 Hello and welcome back to Beyond Your Research Degree.

3 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:33,830 I'm really delighted to be back with you after our summer hiatus and to be bringing to you a conversation with Dr. Ruth Gilligan.

4 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:38,810 Ruth is a senior lecturer and academic, but also because she's in creative writing.

5 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:46,010 She is a published author. And so I thought it would be interesting for us to have a conversation with someone who is an

6 00:00:46,010 --> 00:00:52,820 academic but maintains a professional profile and creative practise alongside their academic work.

7 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:57,890 So Ruth, happy to introduce herself, certainly. Well, firstly, thanks so much for having me.

8 00:00:57,890 --> 00:01:04,400 It's lovely to be chatting to you and reminiscing a little bit about my time at Exeter.

9 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:12,650 I came to Exeter in two thousand and eleven to start my PhD in creative writing,

10 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:18,110 and then I actually went straight for my PhD into my first academic job.

11 00:01:18,110 --> 00:01:24,860 I the first interview I went for my creative writing role had come up at the University of Birmingham.

12 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:31,010 So despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I was like, ah sure, I'll apply and see what happens.

13 00:01:31,010 --> 00:01:40,790 And anyway, I got offered a job. So I started as a lecturer in creative writing at the University of Birmingham in kind of August twenty fourteen,

14 00:01:40,790 --> 00:01:44,690 at which point I was still in the final two or three months of my PhD.

15 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:50,900 So I was kind of trying to pretend that I was a lecturer and seem very grown up and important to my students,

16 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:58,880 despite the fact that I was secretly still a student myself and trying furiously to dot all the T's and cross all the I's on my thesis.

17 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:07,040 So yeah, it was a bit of a mad time, but yeah, then I started out at Birmingham and seven, maybe eight years later I'm still there.

18 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:16,610 So I'm now a senior lecturer. Since that time, I've also published two more novels and I had published three novels before my PhD at Exeter,

19 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:23,660 but I went on to publish two more, one of which was the novel that I wrote as part of my creative writing PhD.

20 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:26,960 And then my most recent book The Butchers came out last year.

21 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:35,300 So yes, I am now kind of fully fledged novelist, academic, creative writing lecturer and still very much in touch with Sam

22 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:41,090 And Sinead my two wonderful supervisors and have very, very fond memories of working with them.

23 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:43,490 There's a number of things I think I want to pick up on in that.

24 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:50,120 And the first is something that comes up a surprising amount, actually, in talking to people for this podcast,

25 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:58,430 which is about kind of seeing an opportunity when you've not actually finished the PhD and going for it and getting it,

26 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:05,060 and then how you go about juggling, working and finishing up.

27 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:13,820 Could you talk a little bit about what that experience was like, kind of managing the workload of working whilst also finishing the PhD?

28 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:21,350 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, part of me looks back at that and thinks, what did I eat for breakfast that morning?

29 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:26,870 That I had the kind of gumption to apply for a job, despite the fact that I hadn't even finished the PhD.

30 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:34,940 In the spirit of full disclosure, the job was actually a senior lecturer role, which I definitely wasn't qualified for,

31 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:42,620 but I applied and they ended up basically giving the senior lectureship to someone else who was duly qualified,

32 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:46,820 but then creating a new lecturer in creative writing role, which they offered to me.

33 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:55,700 So I'm a big believer in. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If I hadn't applied and taking my punch, yeah, that wouldn't have played out that way.

34 00:03:55,700 --> 00:04:01,760 So, yeah, I'm a big believer. Just throwing your hat in the ring and see what happens in terms of managing the workload.

35 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 I mean, you know, realistically, I was at the tail end of the PhD.

36 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Like, I'm not someone who had kind of left all the work at the last minute, like both Sam and Sinead, my supervisors,

37 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,130 like they've been very good about making sure that I was making steady progress

38 00:04:16,130 --> 00:04:20,090 and I'd already written multiple drafts of both the creative and the critical.

39 00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:25,640 So although those last few months are always going to be quite panicked and quite frantic,

40 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,750 just because you are about to submit this thing that you've been working on for three years,

41 00:04:29,750 --> 00:04:33,500 it wasn't like I still had kind of half the thing to write. Like I had.

42 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:39,860 I had written multiple drafts. I was just kind of finessing and going through my bibliography and all that kind of boring stuff.

43 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:41,340 So, yeah, it was a lot.

44 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:50,270 But it also coincided with me like I moved to Birmingham and when I first started the job, so I kind of was in a new city, my my partner.

45 00:04:50,270 --> 00:04:54,050 Who's that at the time He was my boyfriend. Now he's my husband. he at that same time

46 00:04:54,050 --> 00:05:01,640 Ictually moved to Singapore for six months. So I just kind of find myself living in this little flat in Birmingham on my own.

47 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,740 I didn't really know anyone in the city. I was starting a new job. I was also finishing my Ph.D.

48 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:10,660 So, yeah, I probably wasn't the most social time of my life.

49 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:15,130 Fundamentally, I managed to get it all done, and I'm delighted that it played out the way it did.

50 00:05:15,130 --> 00:05:19,630 You know, my my big fear, the reason I kind of pursued doing it that way,

51 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:24,610 even though it was a bit nuts, was I think like so many people in academia, the fear of, like,

52 00:05:24,610 --> 00:05:31,510 not knowing what the next step is going to be or the idea of kind of having a gap before you figure out the next thing you know,

53 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:36,850 have plenty of friends and colleagues who've had that situation where there is a gap when they go from one thing to the other.

54 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:42,400 But I know from my own personality type that I would have just been absolutely freaking out if I didn't have something lined up.

55 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:48,850 So I would rather kind of take on too much in there, be perhaps a bit of overlap rather than being in the desert, not knowing.

56 00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:54,340 So, yeah, it was worth it in that regards. I wanted to kind of take a step back,

57 00:05:54,340 --> 00:06:03,580 step back to that point of applying now and I'm really interested when you said that it was kind of a it was a senior lecturer role,

58 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:06,400 but you kind of nothing ventured, nothing gained, kind of went for it.

59 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,850 And actually, you may not have got that role, but something else came out of it.

60 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:16,250 Were there any particular challenges that you felt that you were coming up against because you were still a Ph.D. student?

61 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:23,990 Yeah, and it's a it's a great question, I think I should say, again, in the interest of full disclosure, like I mentioned briefly,

62 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:29,780 but like despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I had published three novels before I did the book.

63 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:36,110 So I, um, I do appreciate that that might not be the case with all PhD students.

64 00:06:36,110 --> 00:06:38,750 So I kind of had the publishing track records.

65 00:06:38,750 --> 00:06:47,600 I think the big gap and this is where kind of Sam and Sinead were particularly helpful was because it was my first academic application

66 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:57,350 interview and ultimately post just kind of plugging in a little bit to university speak like I didn't really know at that point,

67 00:06:57,350 --> 00:07:09,230 having only been a student albeit a Ph.D. students, I learnt phrases like REF and outputs and impact and all these kind of buzzwords that

68 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:18,080 we're going to come up in my interview and I and they were going to quiz me on. So kind of swotting up a little bit on that vernacular.

69 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,550 But yeah, I think, you know, in those situations, I'm kind of like, what's the worst thing that could happen?

70 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:30,950 I just think that, as you said, just getting your name in front of people and maybe they don't even shortlist you for that particular role,

71 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:39,410 but they'll still lodge at the back of their minds the next time they are looking for something or someone with your set of expertise,

72 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:46,100 your or kind of a prior prior knowledge of you were already going to be at the back of their minds.

73 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:51,860 I do think, like I read various things as well, that I do think there's something slightly gendered as well in terms of,

74 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:55,940 you know, they've done various studies whereby women only apply for jobs,

75 00:07:55,940 --> 00:08:05,120 where they have all of the required skills, whereas men are much more likely if they've got half or even less, they'll be they'll still go for it.

76 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:14,060 So I think that I am always keen in life to kind of be challenging those kind of gender stereotypes or whatever.

77 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,850 So, yeah, I just I just thought, what what's the worst that can happen?

78 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:23,480 And I think, you know, like, I remember going for my undergraduate interview and I remember, like,

79 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:31,250 the last thing someone said to me going in to class was like, they don't expect you to be perfect and to know everything.

80 00:08:31,250 --> 00:08:36,800 But just having that willingness to learn and that potential, if they can see that, that's really all they want.

81 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,280 So I don't think it's totally dissimilar within a job capacity.

82 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,930 Like with the academic world, they could see that I'd never, you know I'd done teaching and stuff at Exeter,

83 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:49,100 but I've never worked full time in an academic role before.

84 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:56,840 But they could see that I was able to, as I said, swot up on that front I and familiarise myself with the kind of university landscape.

85 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,590 And I was going to give it literally everything. So as long as they saw thatthey knew that I was going to be able to to do the job.

86 00:09:03,590 --> 00:09:09,050 And as I said, seven years later, I'm still there. So they were right.

87 00:09:09,050 --> 00:09:17,750 Very much so, and I think that's really important and that that point about it's not about perfection, it's about potential.

88 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:22,010 It's about willingness to learn and openness to that.

89 00:09:22,010 --> 00:09:31,550 And it got me thinking about what experiences you had when you were doing your Ph.D. that you found were

90 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:38,570 really beneficial in helping you kind of apply for and secure that first job with that particular things,

91 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:46,850 or was it just the kind of guidance and mentorship of your supervisors? I mean, as I mentioned, I did so I did do quite a lot of teaching.

92 00:09:46,850 --> 00:09:54,680 I and then also while I was there, I did my I think it was called the LTHE

93 00:09:54,680 --> 00:10:01,160 So the learning and teaching and higher education. I did the kind of first bit

94 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,110 So I remember doing that. And it was one of those things where you go along and you don't really know what to expect.

95 00:10:06,110 --> 00:10:12,260 And some of it was quite theoretical and some of it was quite abstract and some of it was quite practical and Hands-On.

96 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:15,920 And inevitably, though, when you're doing the breakout groups of the workshop sessions,

97 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,580 you get lunch with the the scientists who are like, what creative writing that isn't a real subject.

98 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:23,360 Why are you going to try and teach that? They have to spend half of the time defending it.

99 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,050 But all that being said, I did actually find it really, really useful.

100 00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:31,700 And that was kind of my first induction into kind of really thinking about teaching

101 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:36,860 and lecturing and what what it involves and what kind of teacher I might become.

102 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:40,220 So I did actually find that really useful and then being able to put it into practise.

103 00:10:40,220 --> 00:10:51,840 As I said with those sessions, I also taught at the Edinburgh University run this the Scottish Universities International Summer School thing,

104 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,670 and it's just a four week course, but they get students from all over the world.

105 00:10:55,670 --> 00:11:01,250 And basically I was tasked with designing and then delivering a four week creative writing course

106 00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:09,590 for these these overseas students who kind of ranged from anything eighteen to twenty five.

107 00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:16,220 So that was like another great opportunity for me. And this time I had complete autonomy to decide what what they were going to read,

108 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:18,680 what they were going to do, how the whole thing was going to be structured.

109 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,180 So again, I was slightly throwing me in at the deep end because I had had so much freedom.

110 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:29,540 But again, it was a brilliant opportunity for me to kind of flex my teaching chops.

111 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:32,960 I think that's mixing multiple metaphors, but yeah, just to give it a go.

112 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,210 So then when I did finally start Birmingham, I did actually have quite a lot of not a lot,

113 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,000 but like a good amount of teaching experience under my belt.

114 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:47,000 And I could also say that I have been in a position whereby I'd have to kind of curate and design a course, myself.

115 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,930 So that was a really, really useful stuff. Yeah, I was thinking that and that summer school opportunity, actually,

116 00:11:52,930 --> 00:11:58,870 that's that's where you kind of have that additional experience where you go beyond teaching

117 00:11:58,870 --> 00:12:04,270 seminars or doing lectures and to actually thinking about designing and setting curriculum,

118 00:12:04,270 --> 00:12:10,240 which, of course, is not something you necessarily get to get involved in when you were a Ph.D. student,

119 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,100 but is a huge part of being being an academic.

120 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:20,410 Yeah, and I think I'm always kind of encouraging people to look look out for opportunities like that.

121 00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:22,750 I think, you know, within the creative writing world, anyway,

122 00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:30,710 there are various summer schools or workshop scenarios or one off taster's or a six week courses or whatever.

123 00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:36,520 So I think like anything, getting anything like that under your belt, I think is is hugely useful.

124 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:44,800 You know, it's not necessarily the case that you just have to have loads and loads and loads of very specific undergraduate or postgraduate teaching.

125 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,300 It's just any sort of any sort of experience, especially, as you said,

126 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:55,100 if there is some kind of design or management element attached to that, the more so the better.

127 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:59,450 Was there anything particular in research terms that you did,

128 00:12:59,450 --> 00:13:09,260 or was it just kind of the process of doing the Ph.D. that really kind of stood you in good stead to then move on to an academic role?

129 00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:10,610 And it's a good question.

130 00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:18,690 I think the whole point of me doing the PhD, this is already alluded to like I had published three novels before, before starting at Exeter.

131 00:13:18,690 --> 00:13:23,850 But those novels were very much they were very commercial. They were very much based on personal experience,

132 00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:30,500 like they were kind of all of kind of young people in Dublin growing up and doing stupid things and finding their way.

133 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:37,310 Well, it's very much based on my own life and my own encounters. And I sort of after the third one was published,

134 00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:42,320 I sort of realised that although I definitely did want to keep writing and publishing and going forwards,

135 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,540 these weren't necessarily the kinds of books that I was interested in and in pursuing.

136 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:51,380 So I kind of took a break to figure out what kind of books do I want to do.

137 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:56,690 And I realised that the books I love to read were actually books that had nothing to do with my own personal experience.

138 00:13:56,690 --> 00:14:01,220 You know, there were novels set in different portions of history or engaging with different cultures or

139 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:05,510 parts of the world or whatever where and where I kind of learn something when I was reading that.

140 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:08,840 So I was really interested in, well, could I write a book like that? Like,

141 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:16,590 could I write a book that would require me to go away and do a lot of research and interview a lot of people and really kind of expand my horizons.

142 00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:21,740 And I'm kind of right outside of my own first hand experience. So that was a real journey for me.

143 00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:28,760 And that was what was kind of about. I was doing a lot of research in the very traditional sense, like I did a lot of archival work.

144 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,440 I went that the novel was based around the history of the Jewish community in Ireland.

145 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,320 So I travelled all over Ireland interviewing people. I was down in Cork and some archives there.

146 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,220 I actually went to Israel to interview the Irish community that's now living out there.

147 00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:48,770 So I really was doing that kind of library based or to field research kind of

148 00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:54,530 stuff that you might not necessarily associate with with with creative writing.

149 00:14:54,530 --> 00:15:00,410 And then, of course, I had folders and folders and folders, notes. And I was like, OK, how on earth do I translate this into a novel?

150 00:15:00,410 --> 00:15:06,500 So a lot of my PhD was then trying to marry this kind of factual research that I'd

151 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:11,750 acquired with a story and characters and craft and all of those kinds of things.

152 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:20,640 So so figuring out all of that was was a real took a long time and that's why I needed the three years of a PhD.

153 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Also, as I mentioned, the novel was about the Jewish community in Ireland.

154 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:25,970 I'm not Jewish myself.

155 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:34,910 So I was very aware when I was working on this project of my own kind of position and and whether it was it OK that I was writing this novel,

156 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:39,590 how ethically what were the challenges formerly Practically all this kind of stuff.

157 00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:41,870 And then, as I mentioned right at the start,

158 00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:50,360 the critical part of my PhD was then looking at other Irish authors who have similarly written about minority communities or groups that

159 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:57,800 they're not necessarily a member of themselves and kind of the way that they have navigated that potentially kind of tricky territory.

160 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:04,400 So that academic thinking and looking at other authors that very much informed my own practise.

161 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:13,550 So, again, that kind of circular process of research and reflection and then writing, just figuring out how that all works.

162 00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:18,860 And then, you know, it was lovely that after the PhD, I went on to publish the novel,

163 00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:23,520 but I also went on to publish the critical portion as an academic article in the Journal.

164 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:29,120 So even at that point, I was I was still thinking of my research as both creative and critical.

165 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,710 And I know that when I went to the interview of Birmingham, that was something they were really keen on,

166 00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:39,560 that I was someone who was doing both these kinds of research side by side and saw them very much in

167 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,630 conversation and informing each other and was going to kind of generate different types of output.

168 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:48,560 So that really helped me kind of figure out what kind of academic I wanted to be.

169 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,370 I didn't necessarily want to be just an English academic or just a creative writing academic.

170 00:16:52,370 --> 00:17:03,710 I kind of wanted to be both. I think that's really important and acknowledging the kind of the identity side of things, even if you're not kind of.

171 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:10,100 A creative practitioner or doing kind of practise both works of art about thinking about your identity.

172 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:12,680 Increasingly, PhDs are interdisciplinary.

173 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,220 And so then there's a question about, well, where do you sit in terms of discipline and department and and those aspects of identity as well?

174 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:27,650 It's something that a lot of people are grappling with in lots of different ways when they're looking at moving into an academic post.

175 00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:32,600 And I wondered if you could say a little bit more about the job application and the

176 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,640 interview and what what it practically involves the did you have to submit a CV,

177 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:43,870 a cover letter, a supporting statement? Like what? Do you remember what actually you had to.

178 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:54,770 Had to do as part of the process. Yeah, so I definitely remember all the things you've mentioned in terms of CV, a personal statement, a kind of.

179 00:17:54,770 --> 00:18:01,530 You know, various samples of my work, et cetera. The main thing I remember is the day itself.

180 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:05,350 There were kind of two parts to it. The first was a presentation.

181 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:12,660 So I had to give a presentation. And there about 20 people that I remember being slightly overwhelmed by how many people were in the room.

182 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:20,430 And I get I basically gave a presentation on sort of what I've just spoken about in terms of the kind of creative and critical aspects

183 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:30,390 of my research and how those two things are in conversation and how I might be able to envisage them developing going forward.

184 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:34,290 So that was in the morning. And then they made us have lunch with all the other candidates,

185 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:40,710 which seems like one of the cruellest things anyone's ever done is to make you have lunch with people that you're competing with for the same role.

186 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:44,800 So I think they've actually discontinued that because that is horrid.

187 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:54,660 It was awful. And then in the afternoon, then I had an interview with about eight people, like it was, again, quite overwhelming.

188 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:58,470 Yeah, some from creative writing, some from English, some from the wider college.

189 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:05,700 And then I think they have to have a couple of people from completely different parts of the university just almost as kind of a neutral party.

190 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,910 So it was like a guy there from geography and there was someone else there.

191 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:15,840 So, yeah, it was a real mix. And they asked me like a really wide range of questions.

192 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:25,920 I mean, I think I remember one woman. Her main job was to make me list out, like what we're going to be my four output's over the next few years.

193 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Again, just universities thinking in REF terms and always wanting to know what items of research you're going to actually produce.

194 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:41,040 So I sort of had to come up with the list of some things that I did actually end up delivering.

195 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,290 But I was kind of put on the spot a little bit with that one. They want to talk a little bit about impact and

196 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:52,500 So that's another. When I was interviewing back in twenty fourteen, I was kind of a buzz words.

197 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:56,520 I was just starting to emerge and it's now consumed my life for the last few years.

198 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,590 I'm actually now in to lead for our schools. So while talking and thinking about impact.

199 00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:05,490 But back then I was just a PhD student who had learned a new word recently.

200 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:15,900 So I had to kind of real off ideas. I had to pertaining to that. So, yeah, it was a bit it was it was all, you know, friendly but marginally intense.

201 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,320 And then I went away thinking, well, I've given it a shot.

202 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:29,280 That's fine. And then they actually the head of college actually emailed me that night actually to say, yeah, we're not you know,

203 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:36,570 obviously you're far too junior to get the senior lecturer role that we had originally advertised,

204 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:40,110 but we're actually going to create this new role for you. Would you like it?

205 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:45,090 So that happened within a matter of hours, which was on Monday.

206 00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:48,390 So that was a good day trip to Birmingham,

207 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:58,950 although a lot of people's anxiety about job applications in the application process is about the unknown and what it involves.

208 00:20:58,950 --> 00:21:06,090 And actually it involves some pretty standard things. But at the same time, you know, there's some things that you might get in terms of,

209 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:11,400 you know, we are driven by outputs and impact and all of those buzzwords.

210 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:19,200 And so, you know, being able to talk about how, you know, what your what your plan is for your research outputs,

211 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:29,520 what if you've got some publications that you'd like to adapt parts of your PhD to become or any kind of ideas about,

212 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:30,720 you know, spinoff project  from your work

213 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:39,690 actually that sort of thinking about what might be possible in the future is quite helpful because it's likely to be asked about in that context,

214 00:21:39,690 --> 00:21:43,350 because they want to know what you'll do when you're there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

215 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:49,410 I think I hadn't quite anticipated how much how far forward they would be looking

216 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:53,760 because I thought I was coming in really well prepared with this idea that,

217 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,340 like, wow, I'm writing a creative and critical thing for my my PhD.

218 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:04,020 So hopefully going forward, I'd like to publish both of those aspects.

219 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:10,380 So there's two outputs already lined up and almost ready to go.

220 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:15,240 And they were like, yeah, OK, cool and what about After that. I was like, oh, right, OK.

221 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:23,700 And I remember it's so funny. I remember them just like racking racking my brain because obviously I was put on the spot and I did at the very,

222 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:32,440 very back of my mind, have a tiny, tiny germ of an idea for the next novel and all.

223 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,630 I really had very little except that I knew I wanted to be called the butchers.

224 00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:41,870 So I remember saying that as I was like oh my next books going to be called The Butchers, and it's going to be set in rural Ireland.

225 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:48,180 I made it up. I honestly didn't know I hadn't even applied my brain to thinking about it because I was still finishing the previous one.

226 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:54,530 And I remember during that really quite awkward lunch with the other candidates, two of my.

227 00:22:54,530 --> 00:23:01,280 Colleagues came up to me separately in the lunch, and their main comment was wow The Butchers is such a good title for a novel.

228 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,980 I can't wait to read it. And I was laughing to myself. I was like, this is literally something I've kind of come up with on the spot.

229 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:09,590 Like they both said it to me.

230 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:15,970 And then when Ninefolds, which was my novel, did end up getting published and I was moving on to thinking about the next thing,

231 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:18,980 I was like, maybe I should actually write that book called The Butchers.

232 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:24,920 And sure enough, I spent the next four years researching and writing a novel called The Butchers, which came out last year.

233 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,260 So what sort of was a bit of a blg on the day of my interview ultimately became reality.

234 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:36,820 So there you go. And not only that, but one, the Royal Society of Literature.

235 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,230 Ondjante, I'm not even know if I'm saying that, right, Ondjante

236 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:45,740 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is fabulous.

237 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:53,300 Congratulations and it's fascinating to me to hear that, you know,

238 00:23:53,300 --> 00:24:01,100 this prize winning book came from a kind of something that sat in the back of your head in a job interview and came out.

239 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:06,120 Yeah, well, once I'd said it out loud I felt like I probably had to go away and do it. And just so I'm probably glad I did.

240 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,480 noe as you said, it went onto to do quite well. Say Happy Days.

241 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,930 I always like to end on kind of a twofold note, which is.

242 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:28,500 In terms of the reality of being an academic and making that transition from being a Ph.D. student to to a lecturer.

243 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:38,480 What do you wish that you knew or what advice do you wish you'd been given before you made that transition?

244 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:47,720 That is a good question. I mean, I think one thing I'm really at this point, like I haven't

245 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:55,040 Explicitly said it, but I am aware that it is quite unusual to go straight from your PhD to an academic job and not do a postdoc.

246 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:01,400 So I know that like the majority of my colleagues, that is the route they took.

247 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:08,030 So I sort of skipped that stage, mostly because I think postdocs in creative writing just weren't really a thing at that point

248 00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:13,700 So it's just like a slightly different way. The discipline works. I think just harking back to our earlier conversation, to be honest,

249 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:20,540 I think the main thing I wish people had told me is a just just take a punch, just like if something comes off,

250 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:26,180 like even if sometimes even now when we're advertising jobs or other institutions,

251 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:32,540 advertising jobs, it might say creative writing, lecturer brackets, poetry, focus.

252 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:38,810 And you're thinking to yourself, oh, rats. I write short stories. So I'm not going to be I'm not going to be suitable for that.

253 00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:43,970 Just apply. Just apply. You never know again. They might not get any good poetry people.

254 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,440 They might see your application and think,

255 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,350 actually this person can slot in here and we can just move some stuff around and cover the poetry stuff some other way.

256 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:55,970 I just think literally, as I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

257 00:25:55,970 --> 00:26:01,610 And then finally, just to reiterate that, like when it comes to the application and the interview process,

258 00:26:01,610 --> 00:26:05,930 if it is a question of just kind of brushing up on you're kind of university speak

259 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,360 and trying to get your head around exactly what they're going to ask you,

260 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:14,540 just talk to your supervisors or other lecturers who've been through this, because that was honestly that was a game changer.

261 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:20,480 I can still remember the cafe in East London where I had lunch with one of my supervisors,

262 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,910 and she walked me through all these key terms and was able to predict all the questions they would ask me.

263 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,970 And if it weren't for that brunch, like I would have been nowhere.

264 00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:36,500 But because she had so kindly prepped me and was able to anticipate exactly the kind of notes that I would need to hit, like I got the job.

265 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,910 So I just think don't be afraid to kind of ask for advice from people who have been

266 00:26:40,910 --> 00:26:46,000 through it and who know exactly what what buttons are going to need to press.

267 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:54,460 Thank you so much to Ruth for taking the time to talk to me. I thought there was so much in there in terms of advice about applying for academic jobs.

268 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:55,540 That's really, really pertinent.

269 00:26:55,540 --> 00:27:06,190 And I've actually created an infographic to go alongside the podcast that capture some of that really, really fabulous insight.

270 00:27:06,190 --> 00:27:22,046 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

In the podcast Kaite mentions the Civil Service Job site and the Glassdoor repository of interview questions.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,730 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter College.

2 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:32,340 Hi, it's Kelly Preece and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree, continuing our series on getting jobs during covid.

3 00:00:32,340 --> 00:00:35,190 I'm really excited to be talking to Dr Katie Finning.

4 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:44,220 So Katie was up until recently a postdoc at the University of Exeter and has during the pandemic made the transition into a non-academic role.

5 00:00:44,220 --> 00:00:49,680 So are you happy to introduce yourself? Sure. So I'm Katie Finning.

6 00:00:49,680 --> 00:01:01,540 I am. I'm currently working as a senior researcher at the Office for National Statistics, so I was in academia for about nine years before I left.

7 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:11,790 I'm originally joined not long after I finished my undergraduate degree, I took a job as a research assistant to university.

8 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:18,810 So I was working on a clinical trial of a behavioural therapy for adults with depression.

9 00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:23,130 And I kind of worked on that project from start to finish when I joined.

10 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:27,070 And we were still kind of gaining all of our ethical approvals.

11 00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:33,870 And I stayed working in that job right up until the end where we published the results of the study.

12 00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:43,530 So that was a really great experience because I kind of saw the whole research lifecycle from start to finish.

13 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:48,780 And in that job, my main job for most of that time was data collection and recruitment.

14 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:56,910 So that was great. I spent most of my job kind of going out and meeting people and interviewing them and talking to them about their experiences,

15 00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:02,160 which was was a really interesting and fun job. And then I did my PhD.

16 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,510 I moved over to child mental health, so I was still at Exeter university.

17 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:13,230 So I'd always been kind of interested in mental health from a research perspective, but particularly child mental health.

18 00:02:13,230 --> 00:02:18,910 And a PhD opportunity came up just as my contract on that clinical trial was coming to an end.

19 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:27,150 So it was kind of perfect timing. It was in a team I was really keen to kind of make my way into and the topic was really interesting.

20 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:35,700 So it was advertised as a job rather than me kind of submitting my own PhD proposal.

21 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:39,090 And my PhD was kind of epidemiological.

22 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:51,150 So it looked at kind of patterns and trends in data, looking at the association between anxiety and depression in young people and school absenteeism.

23 00:02:51,150 --> 00:03:00,690 And so I used a variety of different research methods during my PhD, did a bit of systematic review, some quantitative work, some qualitative work.

24 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:02,520 So it was a really kind of nice,

25 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:10,410 well-rounded project that gave me experience and methods that I hadn't experienced when I was working as a research assistant.

26 00:03:10,410 --> 00:03:16,530 And I think it kind of the whole time that I was in academia, there were things I loved.

27 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:21,000 I loved working on research. I loved working with data.

28 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,140 And but I always kind of questioned whether academia was the right place for me.

29 00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:30,210 And the only reason really that I think I stayed for so long was just because the opportunities were there.

30 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:38,880 And so I had no real reason to leave. I had it funded post for about five years, and then I had a great PhD opportunity for three years.

31 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:48,930 And then I did a couple of years of postdoc work as well. And it was, to be honest, by complete luck that I was contacted about my job now.

32 00:03:48,930 --> 00:03:55,740 So towards the end of my PhD, I was starting to get a little bit anxious about kind of what was going to come next,

33 00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:02,670 whether I'd be able to get any funding for postdoc work. And I started quite seriously looking at jobs outside of academia.

34 00:04:02,670 --> 00:04:11,520 But there was never really anything that I saw that I felt was a good enough match for my skills and for what I was interested in.

35 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,610 And and so I signed up for kind of hundreds of job alerts every week.

36 00:04:15,610 --> 00:04:20,100 I get all these alerts about various different jobs and I'd scroll through them and think,

37 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:24,480 oh, I just don't I just don't think there are any jobs outside of academia for me.

38 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,010 And kind of felt a little bit hopeless at that point because I was worried about my job security in academia,

39 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:34,110 but also didn't feel like there was anything outside of academia for me.

40 00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:38,280 And so then I applied for some postdoc funding and was awarded postdoc funding.

41 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:43,920 It was about a year and a half of funding. So I really stopped looking for alternative jobs.

42 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,750 And then by complete coincidence,

43 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:54,990 I was contacted by someone at the Office for National Statistics on LinkedIn about a job that they had and kind of encouraging me to apply.

44 00:04:54,990 --> 00:05:00,750 And I looked at this job description and I remember saying to my husband,

45 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:04,710 I feel like this job's got my name on it and it just kind of ticked every box.

46 00:05:04,710 --> 00:05:08,950 It was a research role. It was a permanent job, which was really important.

47 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:15,010 For me, it was a homeworking contract, which this was all happening during the pandemic,

48 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:21,760 and I really benefited from homeworking, so I was quite eager to apply for jobs and that would be permanently home based.

49 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,900 And yes, that's kind of how I got to where I am now. One thing led to another.

50 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:31,510 I thought I'll just put in an application and see what happens. But I've got this postdoc funding, so it's no big deal if I don't get it.

51 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:37,840 Let's just see what happens. And I had an interview, was offered the job.

52 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:42,610 And so here I am. I've been in this job for about three and a half months now.

53 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:50,830 Thank you so much for that. I think just a story that will really resonate with so many of our listeners about the

54 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:54,940 the getting towards the end of the research degree in that kind of anxiety where,

55 00:05:54,940 --> 00:06:01,120 you know, where the hell am I going next? Is academia right for me?

56 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:09,130 I can't see anything outside of it that really feels like it speaks to my interest or my knowledge or my skills.

57 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:16,020 And I think it's really important just to. Acknowledge how normal that feeling is.

58 00:06:16,020 --> 00:06:21,020 Yeah, and and I think as well, we're not very good in academia about talking about that.

59 00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:27,170 So I always kind of felt like I wasn't I wasn't sure if academia was right for me,

60 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:32,220 but no one ever really talked about, well, if not academia than what

61 00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:39,500 And I always kind of felt like everybody else in academia was so committed and so sure that this was where they wanted their careers to be.

62 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:41,900 And actually now, on reflection, I don't know that that's true.

63 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:48,030 I think that we just a lot of people have those doubts, but it's for whatever reason, it's not really talked about.

64 00:06:48,030 --> 00:06:54,320 And the trouble with that is that it means that it is difficult to know what else there is.

65 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:03,260 And so I think it's really great that you do this podcast. And I think that needs to be more resources like this for, you know, pre docs,

66 00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:09,050 PhD students, postdocs, just to kind of get an understanding of what else is out there.

67 00:07:09,050 --> 00:07:16,940 Because I the thought of leaving academia was really quite scary for me because I felt like nobody was talking about what happens when you leave.

68 00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:25,070 You know if I hate it. Can I come back? Will I be seen as kind of an outsider or a traitor for leaving?

69 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:30,890 And I found that really unsettling because I felt like I was the only the only one who.

70 00:07:30,890 --> 00:07:38,150 Wasn't completely sure that I wanted to stay on this career path and kind of aspire to become a professor,

71 00:07:38,150 --> 00:07:42,380 so I think it's really great that we're having this conversation and that you're kind of

72 00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:47,870 pushing forward these sorts of topics and conversations because I think they need to be had.

73 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:51,050 They do. And I think, you know, you said it yourself.

74 00:07:51,050 --> 00:08:00,830 There's a real taboo around talking about even thinking is academia right for academia right for me, let alone leaving.

75 00:08:00,830 --> 00:08:08,270 Yeah. And and there's all sorts of really, really problematic narratives around it as well.

76 00:08:08,270 --> 00:08:15,350 You know, a lot of people have this misconception, but, you know, it's perpetuated that,

77 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:20,300 you know, if you if you decide not to be an academic, you've in some sense failed.

78 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:26,120 Failed. Yeah. And and it's really difficult to to push past that.

79 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,590 Yeah. Especially when the narrative is so pervasive. It is.

80 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:35,760 And I felt as well because I wasn't sure, you know, I really enjoyed academia in lots of ways.

81 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:43,340 So it wasn't like I absolutely hated it and I knew I wanted out. It was like, OK, I quite like this, but there's also some stuff I'm not sure about.

82 00:08:43,340 --> 00:08:51,520 And and what I worried about was if I tell anyone that I'm thinking about jobs outside of academia.

83 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:57,010 People might not consider me for jobs inside academia, and so I never told anybody,

84 00:08:57,010 --> 00:09:02,560 I never wanted to speak to my supervisors or those that I worked with because I thought,

85 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:08,530 well, if a job comes up, they might think, well, she's not very committed, so let's not offer it to her.

86 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:14,620 And so there was kind of this difficult dynamic where I felt like I needed to be speaking about what other options there were,

87 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:21,800 but also didn't want to look like I wasn't committed enough to be able to do a good job if I did decide to stay.

88 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,870 Yeah, exactly, and it's something I've heard so much over the past few years, at Exeter

89 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:35,210 is that is a real fear of if I express that I might not be interested in staying in academia, what might the consequences be?

90 00:09:35,210 --> 00:09:36,950 How might that limit my opportunities?

91 00:09:36,950 --> 00:09:44,690 And like you say, if I go out and I decide actually I don't like it and I want to come back, you know, is that going to damage my chances?

92 00:09:44,690 --> 00:09:47,550 So I wanted to pick up on a couple of things.

93 00:09:47,550 --> 00:09:55,890 So, you know, you said not knowing what was out there, you signed up to loads of  job alerts, but nothing was coming up that really spoke to you.

94 00:09:55,890 --> 00:10:00,140 Can you talk a little bit about that and about the kind of things were coming up?

95 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:04,970 And what what what about the most resonating with you?

96 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:09,680 I found it very difficult, a lot of the jobs that were coming up.

97 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,190 So I think I signed up for job alerts that were kind of, you know, based on keywords.

98 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:21,020 So it was like research, research, data analysis, those kinds of things.

99 00:10:21,020 --> 00:10:25,880 But there was very little in the way of kind of well-rounded research.

100 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:31,280 So there were tons and tons of kind of data scientist, data, analyst type roles.

101 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:38,210 And as much as I really enjoy working with data and it was one of the things during my Ph.D. that I particularly enjoyed,

102 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:43,340 I I'm still I'm not a data scientist. Right. And that's quite a specific set of skills.

103 00:10:43,340 --> 00:10:47,420 And so a lot of these jobs were coming up where I was thinking, well, that sounds really interesting,

104 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:51,360 but I don't I don't think I've quite got the skill set in order to do that.

105 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:59,600 And there was very little that seemed to be out there that was kind of like a well rounded researcher role that might involve,

106 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:05,870 you know, a bit of research design, a bit of data collection, a bit of analysis, a bit of dissemination.

107 00:11:05,870 --> 00:11:12,440 There was just nothing really coming up. But I tell you what I saw, I think I searched on, you know, all the usual places,

108 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:20,000 Glassdoor indeed, and LinkedIn, and set up loads of job alerts through those kinds of places.

109 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:27,020 But the one thing I didn't do was look at civil service and I honestly never even crossed my mind.

110 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:30,020 I just never, ever. And that's why I think these kinds of conversations are so important,

111 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:35,820 because I didn't really even think about there being research posts in the civil service.

112 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:40,510 There are tons of research jobs in the civil service, not just ONS there.

113 00:11:40,510 --> 00:11:43,860 But I mean, there are loads of jobs being advertised at ONS

114 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:47,990 But, you know, departments, Education Department of Health and Social Care, Department for Transport,

115 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:54,080 depending what your topic area or area of interest is, there are loads of research jobs in the civil service.

116 00:11:54,080 --> 00:12:01,070 And I had absolutely no idea. Yeah, and I, I think it's it's so common.

117 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:05,330 It's you know, if you're interested in an academic career, I mean,

118 00:12:05,330 --> 00:12:11,720 I'm not saying it's easy because it's highly competitive, but you're surrounded by the people with the information.

119 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:20,660 You're surrounded by the gatekeepers. Well, and, you know, you can you see very clearly in front of you what the options are.

120 00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:32,120 Yeah. Outside it. You know, it's it's such a big sort of open ended market of possibilities.

121 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,550 And knowing where you might fit within that is really difficult.

122 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:42,390 So. In thinking about what kind of didn't resonate with you.

123 00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:46,700 About those roles, what was it about this role that you're now in?

124 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:50,710 that did speak to you. What is it that made you go at that?

125 00:12:50,710 --> 00:13:00,180 That sounds like it might be for me. It was the fact that the job description was so the job title was senior research officer,

126 00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:05,400 but the job description mentioned the whole life cycle of research.

127 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,880 So it said something along the lines of, you know, roles might include.

128 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:20,250 And it was everything from designing research, working with stakeholders, you know, managing a team of researchers, data analysis, dissemination.

129 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:27,030 It was basically a postdoc researcher, but working for government.

130 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:28,800 And I thought, well, that's exactly what I want.

131 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:37,040 I don't want to be stuck into, you know, being a specialist data scientist that's a bit outside the realms of what I'm capable of.

132 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:43,770 It's it's a bit of everything and everything that I've learnt along the last nine years of being academia.

133 00:13:43,770 --> 00:13:48,240 I've done all of that. So I literally looked at the job description and I thought, well, I can do that.

134 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:55,230 I can do that. I can do that. There was nothing in it that made me go that's a bit outside of what I can really do.

135 00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:58,560 And it just felt like it fit

136 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:07,380 My skills and probably the skill set of a lot of kind of early postdoc researchers, early career researchers, perfectly.

137 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:16,200 But it had the benefit of being a permanent job, which I hadn't had, you know, at the age of thirty two, I'd never had a permanent job.

138 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,070 And that was I felt like it was the time of my life where I was just a bit tired

139 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:23,580 of being on fixed term contracts and always having to worry about what came next.

140 00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:34,620 And so to have a kind of well-rounded research job that was working from home and that was permanent was just I mean, it was a no brainer.

141 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:38,100 Yeah. And I think, you know, we don't talk again.

142 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:45,870 We don't talk enough about or we talk a lot about precarity in academia, but we don't talk enough about actually why that might be a reason to leave.

143 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:52,410 Yeah. Yep, that's right. It's it's almost something that you just kind of expected to put up with.

144 00:14:52,410 --> 00:15:01,270 And it's like, well, that's just how it is, you know, and and all of the kind of more senior academics have been through that process as well.

145 00:15:01,270 --> 00:15:05,880 So all you see is, you know, even kind of the role models and the people that you aspire to,

146 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,300 to be like eventually still have to go through that process.

147 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:15,840 So it's kind of just like, well, that's if you want to be in academia, that is just what you have to put up with.

148 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:21,500 And I think in you know, in the time of covid as well, I felt kind of.

149 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:24,040 Like, it was extra precarious and I thought,

150 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:30,260 I don't know what the landscape is going to be like over the next couple of years, and that was really scary.

151 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:36,200 It is, and lots of people, for various reasons, it can be, you know,

152 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:43,790 the fact that you just don't have the kind of life circumstances where you can work precariously.

153 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:49,440 It can be, you know, that you are incredibly tied geographically for various reasons

154 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,100 You know, there's lots of different reasons why.

155 00:15:53,100 --> 00:16:01,090 That kind of that kind of system doesn't really work for people, and therefore it can be a reason to leave academia,

156 00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:08,010 but that doesn't mean leaving behind research and the things that you're passionate about in terms of your subject area,

157 00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:12,250 but also in terms of your skills.

158 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:13,500 Yeah, exactly.

159 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:27,620 And I think one of the things I really was quite nervous about leaving and from the point where I accepted the job to the point where I left, I.

160 00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:36,650 Was anticipating that I was going to regret leaving from day one and I was going to wonder what I'd done and I don't know,

161 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:40,640 I sort of feel like I'd maybe put academia up on a bit of a pedestal where I thought,

162 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,560 you know, this is the best thing in the world and I'm not going to have that anymore.

163 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:54,950 And one of the things that I particularly worried about so one of the things I love about academia is working with,

164 00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:59,840 like some of the brightest minds in the world. Right. Like, no exaggeration.

165 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:08,750 And you get to sit in on conversations and be involved in conversations or it's like, you know, groundbreaking research, really smart people.

166 00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:11,330 And I just love that I found it really exciting.

167 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:21,260 And I thought if I leave academia, I'm going to lose that, that actually there were tons of really bright people at ONS and there were tons of ex academics.

168 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:25,100 I went as I didn't lose that at all.

169 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:30,650 You know that there are things and we can talk about that, you know, there are things that I miss and things that I lost.

170 00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:35,270 But working with bright people definitely wasn't one of them.

171 00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:43,730 And I can honestly say that I haven't looked back for a second and I haven't had once I left,

172 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:50,870 it was kind of the couple of months up to leaving that were horrible because I was so worried about whether I was going to regret it.

173 00:17:50,870 --> 00:18:00,350 As soon as I started my new job, I. I just knew I'd made the right decision and even in those first couple of months and starting a new job,

174 00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:06,110 which is always a bit unsettling and especially, you know, it was a big change going to civil service from academia.

175 00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:12,500 It's in some respects, it's totally different. And and there were moments where I felt quite unsettled.

176 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:19,400 Even now, you know, three and a half months down the line, I still have moments of feeling a bit unsettled, but never for a second.

177 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:27,580 I thought I wish I hadn't left. There's something really for me, this is something really to do with identity,

178 00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:32,680 and I experienced it myself when I stopped being an academic and I moved into professional services.

179 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:43,630 I really felt like I was going to be leaving a huge part of myself behind and that I you know, I felt like it was going to be gut wrenching.

180 00:18:43,630 --> 00:18:48,390 Yes. To leave my leave my research topic. And I,

181 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:54,820 I to the extent that I thought I would probably carry on with some of my research

182 00:18:54,820 --> 00:19:00,370 and it was only I've been in this job six years so about two years ago,

183 00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:05,620 that I finally had an exodus of books and research materials.

184 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:10,030 When I realised it's been four years, it's probably not going to happen.

185 00:19:10,030 --> 00:19:17,560 Yeah. And because actually, you know, that it was so tied to my sense of identity that I thought it was going to be this massive,

186 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:22,390 massive thing to stop doing it and to leave and to forge a different path.

187 00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:27,370 And, you know, like you, when I started it, I thought, oh, actually, this this feels right.

188 00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:34,030 It feels like the right environment for me. It feels like doing the right thing. And I'm not looked at once and I've never missed it.

189 00:19:34,030 --> 00:19:43,660 Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think I can really relate to that kind of sense of your identity being wrapped up in academia,

190 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:52,120 because in academic research it's all about you, like it's about you, your research interests, your proposals.

191 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:58,660 You know, it's so centred on you that that it does become part of your identity.

192 00:19:58,660 --> 00:20:07,630 And and I think it feels like it probably felt like one of the biggest life decisions I've ever made and probably still does to leave.

193 00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:15,550 It felt like this huge, huge decision, and especially because I'd just been awarded some postdoc funding.

194 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:21,550 So I was like, I'm I'm literally like I'm walking away from a really good opportunity.

195 00:20:21,550 --> 00:20:26,410 And I guess as well, you know, it's always talked about how competitive research funding is.

196 00:20:26,410 --> 00:20:29,980 And, you know, if you've been awarded something, it's like, wow, that's amazing. Well done.

197 00:20:29,980 --> 00:20:40,840 You should be so pleased that like to walk away felt really difficult and almost like I was letting people down or letting myself down somehow.

198 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:46,060 But yeah, it's funny how pretty much as soon as I did that,

199 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:51,250 I kind of I saw things from a slightly different perspective and I realised how the culture

200 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:57,130 of academia kind of perpetuates that way of thinking where it's all focussed on you.

201 00:20:57,130 --> 00:21:02,860 You're not letting anybody down if you decide to leave, like you're not letting anybody down, you're just not.

202 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:08,740 And you know what? Your self identity will change and evolve, OK?

203 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:14,320 It won't be wrapped up in, you know, this really kind of specific area of speciality that you've developed.

204 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:22,540 But you'll have a new identity and you'll still have many of the aspects of your old identity, but it will just evolve and change.

205 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:29,430 But that's just part of life, right? We change anyway. So nothing to fear.

206 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:33,870 Yeah, I think that I think that's so, so important to acknowledge,

207 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:40,080 and it was going to be one of my key questions for you was kind of what happens when you when you leave and what does that feel like?

208 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:46,860 Because it is it's a huge source of anxiety for people because it feels like a complete unknown.

209 00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:51,450 And like you say, we don't talk about it, you know, so we fear it.

210 00:21:51,450 --> 00:22:03,900 That's right. And and, yeah, you know, academia, it's not just a job when you're in academic research, it is more than that it is wrapped up in your identity.

211 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:11,040 So it's a big deal. But, you know, and I'm sure there are people who leave and find that transition really difficult.

212 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,210 But for me, it wasn't difficult at all.

213 00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:24,870 And actually, you know, I've still got some old projects from my academic career kind of rolling on.

214 00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:32,490 And honestly, if anything, I've had moments of thinking, God, I just want to get those things done so that I can put it behind me and move on.

215 00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:41,100 And it's it's funny how quickly my loyalty has changed.

216 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:44,780 And I felt like actually that was something from the past.

217 00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:50,430 And I'm ready to just move on and, you know, learn it, learn a new job and develop a new life.

218 00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:59,040 And and for my job to not be such a strong part of my identity anymore, I actually find that really refreshing.

219 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:06,060 I did too. there's quite a burden. I think at the time I didn't realise because I thought it was cool.

220 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:11,700 But, you know, my research was so important and then it was all wrapped up in me and my self identity.

221 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:17,820 And and so I didn't realise it until I left. But actually, I think for me that felt like like a bit of a burden.

222 00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:28,190 And it's it's nice to feel like, although what I'm doing now is still really important and it's impactful, it's I can see it more as just a job.

223 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:32,040 And I think I really appreciate that. Yeah.

224 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:39,420 And I, I thought exactly the same about, you know, actually I don't think I necessarily felt it was a burden at the time.

225 00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:45,150 But when I realised the weight had been lifted. Yeah. I realised realise what a burden it was.

226 00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:50,520 But at the same time I always say, you know, it's not like that for everybody.

227 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:57,810 It's it doesn't feel like it's not a burden for everybody. And, you know, that's an important thing to recognise, too.

228 00:23:57,810 --> 00:24:01,950 But if it is for you, then maybe this is it's not the environment.

229 00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:08,340 Yeah. And if your passion is research, there's plenty of things that you can go and do.

230 00:24:08,340 --> 00:24:13,580 So the thing that I wanted to talk about next was the application process for your job.

231 00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:20,790 at ONS cause again, it's something that feels in academia we sort of know a bit about if we're in the system,

232 00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:26,340 about how job adverts and applications and interviews and how all of those processes go.

233 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:34,530 But it feels like a really huge unknown when we're talking about public service or industry, particularly the civil service.

234 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:40,500 So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what the application involved and what the interview process involved.

235 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:51,600 Yeah, so it was a very different experience to jobs that I had applied for in academia, and the application form was fine.

236 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,310 I actually um because like I said, I hadn't been looking out for civil service jobs.

237 00:24:56,310 --> 00:25:00,180 So I hadn't spotted this job until someone messaged me on LinkedIn.

238 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:02,820 And I didn't get the message until the day before the closing day.

239 00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:08,580 So I literally had like one evening and a bit of the next day to put my application together.

240 00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:18,060 So it was very rushed and I think it involved a CV and a description of my previous work experience.

241 00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:24,150 And then I had to do a statement. So I think it was seven hundred and fifty words.

242 00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:28,080 And I had to discuss a piece of work,

243 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:34,980 that I had led or a piece of research that I had led and there were specific criteria about what I needed to include.

244 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:38,870 So it was how I had led a team, what the outcome was,

245 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:44,670 and there were some other things that were specified in there that was pretty easy, to be completely honest.

246 00:25:44,670 --> 00:25:51,780 If you've got kind of post PhD level, you'll be able to talk about a piece of work that you've led.

247 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:55,080 So that was more just kind of, you know, like a lot of job applications.

248 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:01,710 It's a bit tedious having to put that together and because I didn't have much time to do it, but that was fine.

249 00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:11,130 And then I was contacted fairly soon afterwards inviting me to interview.

250 00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:17,640 And then I had to log on to Civil Service Jobs website.

251 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,160 So it's worth mentioning for anyone listening to this,

252 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,920 if you think you might be interested in a research job in civil service, they're all advertised by a civil service.

253 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,940 Jobs, I think it's .co.uk

254 00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:37,930 So all civil service kind of government organisations will all be posted on there and the whole application process is managed on there as well.

255 00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:41,200 And so then I had to book myself an interview date

256 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,840 So basically it's all done on an automated system and you got a choice of different dates and then you select one.

257 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:58,540 The interview itself was hard. It was about an hour and a half long and it was broken down into three parts.

258 00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:02,410 The first part was a presentation. I think it was only a five minute presentation.

259 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:07,450 And they sent me information about what I had to present on about a week before.

260 00:27:07,450 --> 00:27:16,720 And basically by the content of it was that they gave me a general topic area with a list of specific research questions.

261 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,840 And I had to kind of a bit of a brief that some government department wanted this research and what they wanted it for.

262 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,050 I had to pick a couple of the research questions to focus on, and then I had to design a study to address those questions.

263 00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:35,970 So the first part of my interview was presenting that. And then the panel asked me a bunch of questions about it.

264 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:41,230 You know, why did you select those questions? Why did you pick this design?

265 00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:46,570 How could you do it differently? What the strengths and weaknesses.

266 00:27:46,570 --> 00:27:57,890 And then that was followed up with quite specific I think they call them research skills questions.

267 00:27:57,890 --> 00:28:03,980 If you had just come out of your undergraduate degree, particularly in something like psychology,

268 00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:08,510 which was what my degree was, it would probably be relatively easy.

269 00:28:08,510 --> 00:28:18,560 But if you're a few years or more, as in my case, kind of post undergrad, it was things like, you know, what is a normal distribution?

270 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:28,040 How would you explain a P value to a lay audience and things like that, which, you know, if you work with day to kind of day to day, you know,

271 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:35,780 those things, but actually being able to provide like a really neat definition for it in a high stress interview situation was really,

272 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:39,740 really difficult. That's really tough. Yeah, it was hard.

273 00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:42,260 And there was about 20 minutes of those kinds of questions.

274 00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:50,750 But I was lucky that I had before my interview, I'd gone on to the Glassdoor website and I looked up.

275 00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:57,380 So on there this is a very big tip to anyone listening to this who's thinking of applying for other jobs.

276 00:28:57,380 --> 00:29:01,280 And there's a there's a tab on Glassdoor for interviews.

277 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,090 So if you go to whatever the organisation is they search for, say,

278 00:29:05,090 --> 00:29:12,890 I want to go to the interviews tab and there will be people who have posted about their experiences of having an interview at the organisation,

279 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:20,810 and it includes interview questions. And so I had seen on that, I think it was only, I don't know, a few days before my interview,

280 00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:24,560 my husband actually said, well, have you had a look on Glassdoor? And I didn't know this was a thing.

281 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,080 So we stood and we stood there together. I was kind of over his shoulder. He was on his computer pull up these interviews.

282 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,840 And I saw a few for the specific kind of job role that I had advertised for.

283 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,690 And it said on there, you know, people were saying I was asked these kind of very specific research questions,

284 00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:47,480 statistics type questions with some examples of the kinds of questions that I remember standing there and saying to a husband,

285 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,870 oh, my God, there is no way I'm going to be able to do that.

286 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:56,360 And so I spent the next three days, like revising all my undergraduate stats and research methods.

287 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:04,040 If I hadn't have done that, I think that interview process would have been a lot more stressful than it was and would have been really difficult.

288 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:13,960 But thankfully, I was quite prepared for that. And then the third part of the interview was what they call civil service behaviours.

289 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:20,240 So there are a bunch of kind of civil service behaviours, things like what was I assessed on?

290 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,380 I can't remember. I think that's about 10 of them. And I was assessed on two.

291 00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:29,750 And so I think it was maybe leadership and effective decision making.

292 00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:36,470 I think those were the two that I was assessed on and that was those kinds of smart questions.

293 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:42,530 So it's like, you know, tell us about a time when you did such and such,

294 00:30:42,530 --> 00:30:47,810 or they'll present you with a scenario and say, what would you do in this situation?

295 00:30:47,810 --> 00:30:52,340 And those are the kinds of questions where you have to say, OK, this is what the situation was.

296 00:30:52,340 --> 00:31:00,950 This is the action that I took. This was the outcome, et cetera. And that section of the interview specifically was really new to me,

297 00:31:00,950 --> 00:31:07,850 although I know that that's kind of quite typical in many organisations in academia.

298 00:31:07,850 --> 00:31:13,340 Certainly when the jobs that I applied for that that kind of interview process wasn't used at all.

299 00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:17,960 So I found that quite difficult. And if I'm honest, a little bit artificial.

300 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,240 There were no questions like, you know, why do you want the job?

301 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,350 What do you think you bring to the organisation? What relevant skills have you got?

302 00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:36,380 It was all very structured and it did feel a little bit artificial and a little bit like a tick box exercise.

303 00:31:36,380 --> 00:31:46,190 So I found that quite difficult. And it was a stark contrast to academic job interview processes.

304 00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:53,900 But, you know, I got through it and apparently I was I did a good enough job to be offered to be offered the post

305 00:31:53,900 --> 00:32:02,360 And I will say as well, actually, I've since been to the talks and not long after I joined,

306 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:11,600 there was a civil service wide kind of talk about disability adjustments in job application processes.

307 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:18,410 And I have long term health problems, but I hadn't mentioned that on my job application.

308 00:32:18,410 --> 00:32:22,310 I think like many people with disabilities or long term health issues,

309 00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:27,560 I worried about whether that would minimise my chances of being offered something.

310 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:34,820 And so I didn't mention it. But actually, I now know that that absolutely wouldn't have been the case.

311 00:32:34,820 --> 00:32:41,240 And I would really encourage anybody listening who's got any kind of disability or needs any kind of adjustment

312 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:50,630 in order to assist them with the interview process and make it fairer to absolutely put that down when you apply.

313 00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:56,630 And I know that ONS And I'm no doubt other government organisations as well.

314 00:32:56,630 --> 00:33:00,980 Take that. Very seriously.

315 00:33:00,980 --> 00:33:10,640 That's really helpful, just to reassure people that there is that support there on that accessing it isn't going to disadvantage you.

316 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:20,040 Yeah, definitely. And all say that's one thing I've been really impressed with since I've joined is the support for people with disabilities.

317 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:26,330 So actually, after I joined, there's a whole kind of official process. I would ask if you've got any kind of disability.

318 00:33:26,330 --> 00:33:30,950 It's called a disability, sorry. Now it's called a workplace adjustment passport.

319 00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:38,300 And it's basically a form that you that you fill out in collaboration with your line manager that says, you know, these are my difficulties.

320 00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:42,350 These are the kinds of adjustments I need. And they're agreed.

321 00:33:42,350 --> 00:33:45,830 And it's kind of formally attached to your records so that if you move around within

322 00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:51,020 the organisation that goes with you and it could be reviewed and changed as needed,

323 00:33:51,020 --> 00:34:00,320 but they are really brilliant at making any adjustments that are required the helpful for you as an individual in order to perform at your best.

324 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:06,650 And I've been really impressed with that from ONS. That's that's really amazing.

325 00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:14,570 I was just going to say the other thing that I'm really valuing is work life balance and flexitime.

326 00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:18,300 So ONS has a flexitime system, and it was one of the things I was quite worried about.

327 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:25,940 But having chronic health issues, one of the things I really valued in academia was that I could kind of manage my time myself.

328 00:34:25,940 --> 00:34:32,450 So, you know, if I was having a bad day, I could take the afternoon off and I didn't really even need to tell anybody.

329 00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:39,290 I didn't need to record it is sick leave necessarily I could You know, I was you're almost your own boss in in many respects.

330 00:34:39,290 --> 00:34:43,070 And you have a lot of flexibility over how you manage your time. And I really valued that.

331 00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:53,060 And I was very anxious about losing that. But, oh, there's a there's a flexitime system and it really is very flexible.

332 00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:58,340 So if you want to take an afternoon off, you know, as long as you don't have any really important meetings going on,

333 00:34:58,340 --> 00:35:07,130 you can just do it and you don't really even have to ask for permission. So that's a real bonus and something I've been really impressed with.

334 00:35:07,130 --> 00:35:16,190 And things like part time working is really common, even in very senior staff members.

335 00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:23,540 So several of the kind of the highest level directors are part time workers,

336 00:35:23,540 --> 00:35:29,540 there were lots of women in senior roles, you know, people with young children,

337 00:35:29,540 --> 00:35:36,500 people with caring responsibilities, people with disabilities are represented across the whole organisation at all different levels.

338 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:40,700 And on reflection, I don't think that's done very well in academia.

339 00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:45,530 And I always found it difficult because I dropped to part time working.

340 00:35:45,530 --> 00:35:51,350 during my PhD because for health reasons and then in my postdoc work, I was always part time.

341 00:35:51,350 --> 00:35:57,260 And it really worried me that nobody senior seemed to work part time.

342 00:35:57,260 --> 00:36:02,900 And I always thought, I don't think I'll be physically capable of doing that job full time.

343 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:09,320 So therefore that career path just isn't an option for me. But I guess it just doesn't matter.

344 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,300 Your job, you can be part time. It doesn't matter how senior you are.

345 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:22,070 You know, it's recognised that people have lives outside of their jobs and ONS are very good at accommodating that.

346 00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:25,890 Fabulous. Yeah. Isn't that nice to hear.

347 00:36:25,890 --> 00:36:37,400 Is it. Is. So I think to wrap up well what advice would you give to someone who is, you know,

348 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,860 in the position that you were you're not really sure if working in academia is the right thing for you,

349 00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:46,250 but you you don't really know what's out there.

350 00:36:46,250 --> 00:36:52,210 What advice would you give them in hindsight? I would say.

351 00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:59,230 Join LinkedIn, I wasn't on LinkedIn for years, and I kind of always thought, oh, what's the point of it?

352 00:36:59,230 --> 00:37:02,800 I couldn't really see how it would benefit me if I wasn't on LinkedIn.

353 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:11,950 I wouldn't have known about this job and I'd probably still be in academia, still having all those same concerns and,

354 00:37:11,950 --> 00:37:18,370 you know, keep your options open where I think where you feel comfortable doing so.

355 00:37:18,370 --> 00:37:22,930 Have those conversations with your managers and your colleagues. And I appreciate that.

356 00:37:22,930 --> 00:37:29,020 That's really difficult. And I guess if there are any managers listening to this, I would say,

357 00:37:29,020 --> 00:37:34,390 please have those conversations with your staff, with your junior researchers, you know,

358 00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:39,530 acknowledge that not everybody in academia wants to be a professor one day,

359 00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:45,160 you know, make it known that it's OK to be thinking about alternative careers.

360 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:54,850 And I've actually been been invited by a professor at Oxford University who I worked with kind of came across during my PhD.

361 00:37:54,850 --> 00:37:59,200 She since approached me and has asked me to do a bit of a mini presentation to her research team.

362 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,090 So she's a very senior professor at Oxford who wants me to come in and talk to

363 00:38:04,090 --> 00:38:09,250 her research group about my job and about civil service and leaving academia.

364 00:38:09,250 --> 00:38:20,590 And I just feel like that's like just such leadership there to to proactively get someone who's no longer in academia in to talk to her team.

365 00:38:20,590 --> 00:38:27,110 I really feel like more managers need to be doing that. But, you know, if you're in the position that I was in,

366 00:38:27,110 --> 00:38:33,400 try and seek out people who you do feel safe having those conversations with and that there was one particular person,

367 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,180 quite senior person, who I who I worked with, who I did have these conversations with.

368 00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:42,130 And I really valued that. And I still chat to him now.

369 00:38:42,130 --> 00:38:49,690 So, yeah, I think, you know, find out, find out people who you feel safe having those kinds of conversations with and have those

370 00:38:49,690 --> 00:38:55,750 conversations and just keep your options open and know that there is research happening everywhere.

371 00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:59,710 And just because you don't know about it, it doesn't mean it's not happening. So just keep looking.

372 00:38:59,710 --> 00:39:04,330 Keep searching that there are lots of jobs out there.

373 00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:11,980 It's just about kind of finding them and knowing where to look. But look on civil service jobs because there are tons and I had no idea.

374 00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:22,810 Thank you so much to Katie for that really insightful and really in-depth discussion about that transition from Ph.D. to postdoc to leaving academia.

375 00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:29,260 I think it's really beneficial to have these really in-depth conversations about the process, what it involves,

376 00:39:29,260 --> 00:39:38,320 how it feels so that we can reassure our listeners that actually it's it's OK, it's going to be OK.

377 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:44,890 And it was great to also hear about the support of access for the disabled employees

378 00:39:44,890 --> 00:39:51,640 and knowing that that that support is out there in industry as well as in academia.

379 00:39:51,640 --> 00:40:07,508 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,700 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College

2 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:27,660 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree.

3 00:00:27,660 --> 00:00:36,820 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and in this episode, we are continuing our series on securing jobs during covid-19.

4 00:00:36,820 --> 00:00:44,460 I'm speaking to another of our current PGRs who's not quite finished writing up, but has started a job in a local authority.

5 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:54,810 So, Alexandra, you happy to introduce yourself? So my name is Alexandra Smith and I'm a student at the University of Exeter.

6 00:00:54,810 --> 00:01:00,720 I based in business school, but my PhD is on what I call the holistic health benefits of working groups.

7 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,820 So essentially I'm looking at five different variables organisational landscape, physical health,

8 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:14,430 mental health and social capital and their influence on working group participant motivation for joining, remaining and leaving.

9 00:01:14,430 --> 00:01:18,210 So at the moment, I am working with Devon County Council.

10 00:01:18,210 --> 00:01:23,790 I'm a public health research support officer and it's a role funded by the NIHR.

11 00:01:23,790 --> 00:01:31,320 That's the National Institute of Health Research, and it sits within the the CRN the Clinical Research Network.

12 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:37,560 So essentially, NIHR is really interested in expanding its public health portfolio.

13 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:45,990 So my role is to sort of link up researchers to populations to to get data from so I can

14 00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:50,880 do that through Connections that I have through the team within Devon County Council,

15 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:58,440 but also to to create spaces for collaboration for public health.

16 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:09,780 So I work across lots of different teams, so I will work with different individuals in D.C.C public health, but also broader DCC.

17 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:15,060 So I'm also linking up with people in sort of who work more in the environment who are

18 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:22,140 interested in working in transport and also working with sort of more partners as well.

19 00:02:22,140 --> 00:02:31,500 So community and voluntary sector NHS CCG Trust those different kind of partnerships, academics as well.

20 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:39,180 And at the moment I'm working towards creating a webinar which DCC will be hosting on the 8th of July,

21 00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:46,650 and that's really a great collaborative forum to get academics and other partners together,

22 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:54,660 to really talk through some of the pressing public health issues that we have in public health is such a huge area,

23 00:02:54,660 --> 00:02:58,770 really covers all aspects of life, really.

24 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:03,150 It's very interconnected. So it's really important to have those collaborative spaces.

25 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:08,100 And currently what I'm designing is a kind of like a platform.

26 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:17,220 I'm looking to do this through sort of SharePoint and also through Microsoft teams to enable

27 00:03:17,220 --> 00:03:25,560 researchers and other collaborators to get together to put together grant applications.

28 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:35,250 The role that I have public health research support of is a new role. And there are about 20 of me across the UK with this title.

29 00:03:35,250 --> 00:03:41,430 And next week I have my first meeting to meet the rest of the team on that.

30 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:45,930 So I am new to a local authority.

31 00:03:45,930 --> 00:03:52,560 I'm new to public health, I'm new to NIHR, are very much started off like I did.

32 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,600 I did a bachelor's in human psychology. I did a Masters in psychological well-being and mental health.

33 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,270 And I worked as a research assistant to the University of Nottingham in the nursing, midwifery and physiotherapy department.

34 00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:08,820 And from there, I kind of thought clinical perhaps isn't quite for me, but I've got more.

35 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:13,050 I really wanted more of a holistic perspective to individuals.

36 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:22,080 So that's when I moved to Exeter to do my PhD. And then it just started shaping more into a kind of public health policy,

37 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:29,940 kind of feel to it  then my supervisor suggested actually public health and maybe a local authority might work for you.

38 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:36,690 And this really this is a fantastic opportunity because it kind of brings those two things together.

39 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:41,640 It brings up public health interests and it brings that research element as well.

40 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:48,600 So what I've been doing is engaging with different people. So I've been having one to ones with different members of the D.C.C public health

41 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,900 team to understand their research about their area that they're working on.

42 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:57,690 And these could be really broad themes, you know,

43 00:04:57,690 --> 00:05:04,200 that there could be children and young persons or it could be mental health or it could be planetary health.

44 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,910 And they've been working on this for years.

45 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:14,430 And I have to understand what it is that they're doing and what specific research element could be within that.

46 00:05:14,430 --> 00:05:21,270 So it's been a big learning curve if you don't if you don't know anything about that particular field to begin with.

47 00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:23,370 So it's very much you've gotta swap your

48 00:05:23,370 --> 00:05:31,110 head from learning about one topic and then something, you have to give somebody else an entirely different project and an entirely different topic,

49 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:38,070 and it's just understanding those kind of connections that you can make to have like a broad you know,

50 00:05:38,070 --> 00:05:43,590 we need something researched into this or we need this really specific kind of population.

51 00:05:43,590 --> 00:05:49,080 So it's it's been a steep learning curve. I wouldn't have it any other way.

52 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,140 Yeah. And I think that's a really important thing.

53 00:05:52,140 --> 00:06:00,990 to acknowledge that quite often when you're moving from research into any other sector, but particularly kind of,

54 00:06:00,990 --> 00:06:07,290 you know, the public policy kind of area that you're working in, it's going to be a steep learning curve.

55 00:06:07,290 --> 00:06:14,220 But that doesn't mean that you don't have valuable knowledge and skills and expertise to apply in those areas.

56 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:14,820 Exactly.

57 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:25,390 And it is really just about, you know, that that frame of mind when you start applying for jobs that are outside of academia because I don't know,

58 00:06:25,390 --> 00:06:32,130 certainly certainly I found that I perhaps didn't want to work in academia, although I did really still like research.

59 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:34,560 But I wanted to get more into public health and understand that.

60 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:41,730 But I don't have a public health master's, and that's just not something that I could go straight into, you know, to get a job.

61 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:46,950 And I need to get some money. I can't just go study again.

62 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:52,110 And it is really just about I found LinkedIn incredibly helpful for that process, actually,

63 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:58,230 because you can follow different organisations and you can follow different people who are interesting to you.

64 00:06:58,230 --> 00:07:03,720 Interesting to you. And you can learn about opportunities that you never would have thought about.

65 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:09,420 And that there is a learning to and where you have to understand and unpick some of that language.

66 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:13,810 But some of it is just about immersing yourself in it.

67 00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:20,310 And for me, It's just constant exposure. The more exposure you get to it, over time, you pick it up.

68 00:07:20,310 --> 00:07:27,840 And I found that incredibly invaluable because then I broke out of my understanding the language

69 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:33,540 of academia and the language of other organisations and therefore what they were looking for.

70 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:42,690 And that actually I had those skills. I just needed to understand it in different words and they needed to sell it in different words.

71 00:07:42,690 --> 00:07:48,150 So I would say LinkedIn was actually invaluable for that it really was

72 00:07:48,150 --> 00:07:52,470 And then, you know, it's just about going through those applications.

73 00:07:52,470 --> 00:08:03,900 Give yourself enough time for it. So I suppose I take like I took two different strategies to it, like applying for loads of jobs,

74 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:08,430 but also like I really want this one, or I think I could really get that one.

75 00:08:08,430 --> 00:08:14,970 And I would probably say if you have the time, try and do it more focussed.

76 00:08:14,970 --> 00:08:18,960 But also it can be really interesting to just apply more generally.

77 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:32,490 So I, I got an interview that was more about, you know, turning academic projects into, like the business ventures.

78 00:08:32,490 --> 00:08:35,160 I don't know if that's the direction that I want to go into.

79 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:42,060 And it was really helpful to have that interview to understand maybe this wasn't something I wanted to pursue now,

80 00:08:42,060 --> 00:08:50,430 but I never would have got that experience had I not applied for something totally different.

81 00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:57,390 So it can be a really useful learning strategy to to apply for a variety of different things that perhaps in the

82 00:08:57,390 --> 00:09:06,960 first instance and I suppose something that I would say is you can be a bit overwhelmed with interviews suddenly,

83 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:14,570 like I would have, like, I don't know, like for interviews.

84 00:09:14,570 --> 00:09:25,670 Four days in a row, that's exactly how it could happen, and you've got to do a presentation for it and you might have to do like a group work for it.

85 00:09:25,670 --> 00:09:29,660 So there is there is a big time commitment to it.

86 00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:36,350 Don't underestimate that because there's a lot of work you need to put in, particularly for my current job.

87 00:09:36,350 --> 00:09:38,270 Fortunately for my other interviews,

88 00:09:38,270 --> 00:09:45,560 I'd also I'd already been looking into public health things and obviously public health stuff has been going on for years.

89 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:52,730 Public Health England has been around for a while now. So there's lots and lots of information and there's lots of changes.

90 00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:59,960 The language is very involved. So it does take time if you're moving into a new area.

91 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:06,260 But it's just the fact that exposure, that commitment, trying different things.

92 00:10:06,260 --> 00:10:13,550 And yeah, it just got to the point where I know I knew enough and I knew how to kind of frame myself.

93 00:10:13,550 --> 00:10:19,520 I knew what my I knew the things that I was particularly strong in.

94 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:26,310 And I would say I don't want to say like it's unique selling point, but.

95 00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:33,300 What is it that you have to offer and what is it that they have to offer?

96 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:39,840 Like yeah ok, you need a job, but it's probably going to be way worse if you just have a job that you hate.

97 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,750 It's much better to have a job where you're much more aligned with the values.

98 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:49,140 So I would say I think it probably depends on you as an individual,

99 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:54,240 but personally being involved in how it's like my values are really important to me.

100 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,870 So my organisation, the organisation that I want to work with,

101 00:10:57,870 --> 00:11:04,110 I need to make sure that my values are aligned with those, because if it doesn't, then it's just not sustainable.

102 00:11:04,110 --> 00:11:11,250 I'm not going to do a good job. I'm going to get fired. Then I'm not going to get like a very good, you know, like a reference, that kind of thing.

103 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:16,750 Is it really worth it? I think it's worth just thinking about what do you want?

104 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:22,890 What do they have to offer? You know, it's very true that people say, you know, it's not just that you are being interviewed.

105 00:11:22,890 --> 00:11:29,010 You're also interviewing them. You know, do you just feel like maybe this is a bit of a toxic environment going on?

106 00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:32,880 Or do you feel like this this team really works as a team,

107 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:41,250 that they really have this this combined overall sense of leadership in this respect for one another.

108 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:45,060 And that's really what I found at DCC I couldn't be more happy.

109 00:11:45,060 --> 00:11:49,470 I really couldn't. I feel so much part of the team.

110 00:11:49,470 --> 00:11:58,730 And I love this this mutual respect that everybody has for everybody, you know, from the top down, everybody.

111 00:11:58,730 --> 00:12:09,950 feels you know, everybody has that combined sense of of feeling valued and heard, and I think that I really appreciate that personally.

112 00:12:09,950 --> 00:12:18,170 And something really important I want to pick up on there is that a lot of people are using things like LinkedIn as a kind of an awareness

113 00:12:18,170 --> 00:12:28,490 raising to see what's out there and what's possible and where your skills and experience could be highly valued or sought after.

114 00:12:28,490 --> 00:12:33,920 Don't don't underestimate your value as a researcher.

115 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,090 You're trained to be creative in your thought.

116 00:12:38,090 --> 00:12:44,990 You're trained to look out for those little nuances and question everything.

117 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:49,220 And I think that that's something that I found really interesting working at DCC

118 00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:55,010 because people are obviously trying to understand what is best practise,

119 00:12:55,010 --> 00:13:01,760 what is the literature so that we can understand how we can support our populations the best.

120 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,900 But there's also this kind of practicality of like we need to do something now.

121 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:13,970 And research works at a completely different time to local authorities who need to be helping the populations

122 00:13:13,970 --> 00:13:18,830 now that they don't need to know the findings of a randomised control trial 10 years in the future.

123 00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:26,810 So it's really trying to sort of bring those two things together. And that's that's something where I sort of really come in to help them with.

124 00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:30,080 And I suppose the thing about, you know,

125 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,920 a local authorities that they're trying to they've got to sort of split their population

126 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,510 up to understand how we can how can we support this population or that population,

127 00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:42,380 this geographical area or children and young persons or whatever.

128 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:48,380 And research takes quite a can take quite a different approach. We will go.

129 00:13:48,380 --> 00:13:55,490 Don't make any assumptions and you know, where where are things that we can connect,

130 00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:58,640 where are the similarities, where are the differences I have a background in psychology

131 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:06,830 So I'm sort of trying to understand more about how we can incorporate individual differences more into research.

132 00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:11,390 You know, it's this kind of within and between group differences.

133 00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:16,490 So this is kind of like this two is two different needs going on,

134 00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:24,620 and it's about understanding how we can pick those apart and come up with a strategy going forward.

135 00:14:24,620 --> 00:14:32,360 Can you talk a little bit about the process of finding this, the job that you're in at DCC and this opportunity?

136 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:44,360 The job that I actually got now, I got off the back of an interview, so I'd applied for like like an intelligence analyst job DCC.

137 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,980 So I'm I'm based in intelligence as well. That's just where I sit in the team.

138 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:55,940 But I actually straddle so many different, like pretty much everything in public health.

139 00:14:55,940 --> 00:15:03,770 because research is so broad and public health is so interconnected.

140 00:15:03,770 --> 00:15:12,380 So that's what I applied for. And the because obviously I got that analysis background.

141 00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:18,530 I've got mixed methods, background so quant and qual and I didn't get it.

142 00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:25,010 And the feedback that I got was great is just that you didn't quite tick some of the public health boxes.

143 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:36,500 So get more familiar with with public health language and, you know, the JSNA the joint strategic needs assessment, those kind of things.

144 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:44,990 And then, yeah, then I got sent through the like the the job advert.

145 00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:49,300 I applied for it, I.

146 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:56,890 Then had the interview and managed to secure the job and, you know, and you're always going to get feedback and feedback is incredibly valuable.

147 00:15:56,890 --> 00:16:06,040 This isn't something to shy away from embracing. It is really important and valuable things in there about values.

148 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,220 And, you know, like you said earlier, about buzz words.

149 00:16:09,220 --> 00:16:18,100 And there are certain things that when we talk about careers, are buzzwords and and feel like like platitudes and like kind of management speak.

150 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:24,310 And one of those is kind of the importance of knowing your values to finding the right career path for you.

151 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:30,430 But actually in practise, it is it's cliche and it's it yeah.

152 00:16:30,430 --> 00:16:35,320 It feels like kind of business speak, but it is actually true. Yeah, exactly.

153 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:41,290 And I suppose, you know, I fought it in the past and just gone like, oh, no business speak buzz words

154 00:16:41,290 --> 00:16:45,850 Same, oh, it just turns me off completely.

155 00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:49,270 It makes me feel like it totally goes against my values.

156 00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:58,090 But I look at I suppose I look at it more as a language tool that I use to communicate a concept to other people.

157 00:16:58,090 --> 00:17:06,550 And that message and that communication is more important than perhaps preconceptions I have about it.

158 00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:12,940 Yeah, absolutely. And then the other one, I think really comes up in what you're saying is also the hidden job market,

159 00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:18,790 which is another one of those kind of management speak things, Business speak things that you hear and you shudder.

160 00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:22,510 But it is so true in practise. Yeah, I know.

161 00:17:22,510 --> 00:17:30,700 I suppose what I would say about this is that it's it's totally different to what I thought that it was like.

162 00:17:30,700 --> 00:17:35,590 It's you know, it's not sort of like I mean, I don't know how it works.

163 00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:41,080 And other things like DCC has a structure and lots of other places do where, you know,

164 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:49,330 you have like tick boxes and you score a value based on like, you know, they're looking for a topic or a theme or something.

165 00:17:49,330 --> 00:17:58,420 And they will judge your answer, you know, I mean, this is how I understand it to be, you know, give you a score on your answer for that topic.

166 00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:06,970 You know, that particular thing that they're asking you about during the interview. And whoever gets the most points gets the job.

167 00:18:06,970 --> 00:18:13,990 So, you know, it was totally different from what I understood to be that kind of hidden job market,

168 00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:19,400 because I suppose the hidden job market, I assumed it was sort of like, oh, here's this job and you should just go for it.

169 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,830 And I would, you know, you. But it doesn't it doesn't work like that.

170 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:28,190 Every job's going to be advertised. You know, legally, this has got to happen.

171 00:18:28,190 --> 00:18:31,960 And in terms of fairness.

172 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:41,650 But if if somebody sees something in you and goes, actually, I think that this could be really useful to you, then you will know about it.

173 00:18:41,650 --> 00:18:45,640 You'll know about it in advance. And you might not you know you know, you might know about it a couple of days.

174 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:51,970 You might know about it a week or something. And that can give you a bit of lead time to think about, is this what I want to give that person?

175 00:18:51,970 --> 00:19:00,110 Thanks. Do some research into it. So, yeah, it's completely different to what I thought I was that it was some sneaky thing.

176 00:19:00,110 --> 00:19:06,610 It's not. It's not. It's more about somebody seeing something in you and going, actually, this might interest you.

177 00:19:06,610 --> 00:19:15,190 I suppose, to begin with, I found this idea of networking quite scary and I felt quite awkward with it.

178 00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:18,430 But actually, if I just bring it back to what my values were,

179 00:19:18,430 --> 00:19:30,590 my values are helping people and helping the broader theme of of helping people generally with, you know, with physical activity or whatever.

180 00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:35,140 And so in that respect, that's why it immediately struck me.

181 00:19:35,140 --> 00:19:44,470 Oh I'll send this person, you know, that paper or that link to that grant funding because I'm helping somebody.

182 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:49,450 Exactly. And I think, again, you know, you hear networking and again, you think management people and speak.

183 00:19:49,450 --> 00:19:53,560 But actually, you know, it doesn't let you say about the hidden job market.

184 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,720 It's not necessarily your perception of it as a term. It's not necessarily how it works in practise.

185 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:06,100 I think we've we've uncovered so much in this about kind of like actually the importance of your values to driving you and thinking

186 00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:13,600 about how you investigate and look at different jobs and be a bit more targeted than just using those kind of a big job site,

187 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,600 then the kind of hidden job market actually in applying for jobs.

188 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:23,110 It creates new opportunities for you because you might not be right for the particular position that you've applied for,

189 00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:26,050 but there might be something else coming up that they go, oh, actually,

190 00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:33,040 we spoke to Alexandra and although she wasn't right for that job, she'd be perfect for this job.

191 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,060 And also the kind of, you know, networking doesn't have to be clinical. It's about, you know,

192 00:20:37,060 --> 00:20:48,800 being collegiate and having conversations with people and kind of helping basically some advice that I got about networking was about.

193 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,530 Sort of keeping a contact and that sort of stuff.

194 00:20:51,530 --> 00:21:00,320 I mean, there was just too much to do in a day, you know, and I don't know that all of that would be completely genuine if you had to.

195 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:09,650 I mean, nobody can do that. That's just too much. If something just happens to crop up and it seems relevant to that person, then I'd send it.

196 00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:14,720 If it's kind of general like chit chat, I just don't know that's that valuable to anybody.

197 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,380 But it depends on who you are, depends on who the other person is,

198 00:21:18,380 --> 00:21:26,060 depends on and sort of what stage they're at before we kind of bring and bring this to a close.

199 00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:34,580 I wondered if we could talk a little bit about what you think. So one of the anxieties people, a research degree students have tends to be about.