Her theme for her term as president is connection, which is a value that runs through both her leadership and her life. So at ALPS, Sara helps guide a growing company that's redefining what it means to lead with purpose. And when she's not leading finance teams, she's often on a mountain bike trail somewhere in Montana. So exploring new terrain, both literally and figuratively. 

So thank you so much for joining us, Sara. 

Sara Smith: 

Thanks, Rio. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm happy we got this chance to sit down and chat about all the exciting things you have going on, and I'm really looking forward to our discussion. 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah, me too. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

So okay, let's start with your story, the beginning. What first drew you to accounting and being a CPA? 

Sara Smith: 

That's a great question. 

When I was in high school, I took accounting and they taught the class with a packet, right? And it had the balance sheet and income statement and all the journal entries. And it was such a neat and clean process, and I really enjoyed that. But when I went to college, I thought, "I am much too exciting to be an accountant. I have way more things that I would like to do and this seems really boring." So I went the long way. I got my undergraduate in marketing and management and got my MBA, and then discovered accounting and pursued my CPA after that. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, awesome. And did you kind of revisit that love of that kind of order and the balance sheet and all the nice orderly parts of it? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. I think the thing ... There's a misconception about accounting that it is very black and white. And in reality, it's really messy and it has a lot of shades of gray, which make it much more challenging than it looks on paper. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Oh, interesting. 

So before joining ALPS, you spent a lot of time working for a variety of companies, including Target and Montana Rail Link. So I'm very curious, can you tell us a little bit about that path and what eventually led you to ALPS? 

Sara Smith: 

Absolutely. 

So I was an intern at Target when I went to college here at the University of Montana. It was such a fun internship. I mean, we just basically ran around that store and did whatever we wanted. And I thought, "Oh, well, if this is how the work turns out, then I want to join this team." And there weren't a lot of good job prospects when I graduated from college, so I moved to Colorado with Target and went through their store management training program, which was a lot of hands-on management, which was great. I really enjoyed it. 

It wasn't long into that process though that I realized that this was not for me. Retail was not going to be a long-term career. And I utilized their program to pay for graduate school and I went and got into my MBA program. 

So I did that for a couple of years, and then 9/11 happened and decided to move back to Montana; and had a friend of a friend that worked at Montana Rail Link and got in the accounting department there. And I didn't love it, to be honest. It was not my favorite place, mainly because of culture. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

And so my advisor suggested that I try ALPS, and I've been there 22 years. 

Rio Laine: 

Wow. Yeah, it's true. I mean, culture is such an important part of a workplace. 

And so in terms of ALPS, I mean, obviously the culture was appealing, but also is there anything else that made you feel like it was the right fit? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. I came in in a strange part of time in ALPS' history. They were on this really kind of creepy second floor and the doors were closed all the time, and it wasn't actually a very welcoming type atmosphere. And so I really found solace in the accounting department. They liked to have fun, they played jokes on each other. There was just a lot of laughing. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. 

Sara Smith: 

And so that's something that I really, really enjoyed. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. 

And I mean, there's still a lot of laughing at ALPS, which is really nice. I mean, now we're on a different floor and it's much more open and nice, so ... 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, that's awesome. Well, we're obviously very happy that you're part of the ALPS team. 

Sara Smith: 

Thanks. 

Rio Laine: 

And you're a really important part of it. I mean, really, you literally make the numbers work, so ... 

All right. So let's shift our focus a little bit and talk about the idea of connection and how that plays into your kind of leadership philosophy. You know, you made connection the central theme of your leadership this year kind of personally, but also at the Montana Society of CPAs. So I'm curious to know what inspired you to make that your theme? 

Sara Smith: 

So there were three things that actually fed into that. First was just from an organizational perspective, people weren't coming to things in person, right? 

Rio Laine: 

Oh yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

They were choosing the online option. And then my guess is they were likely multitasking, right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Sara Smith: 

And so they're missing that opportunity to connect in person. 

And then the second thing is the people that did come, you would go to a table and they'd all be on their phones. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Oh yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

And so that is also very challenging. It's hard to connect when you literally have your nose in your device. 

And then earlier this year, I was on a flight, and I had a woman sitting next to me and she started to talk to me. And I just wasn't sure if I was going to take the bait, if I was in that place to have that sort of conversation on a plane, and I ultimately decided, "Yes." And we had such a rich conversation and had a lot of connections about a lot of different things that I didn't anticipate, and I actually went and had coffee with her a few months later after she got back from her travels. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, really? 

Sara Smith: 

And so if I had not said yes to that, I wouldn't have formed that new connection. And so that really has just stuck with me, right? You got to say yes in order to engage. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. 

I love that you made a new friend on the plane too- 

Sara Smith: 

Right? 

Rio Laine: 

... Because yeah, you never know sometimes. 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

I travel a lot and you're like, "Am I going to have this conversation?" 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. Right. Exactly. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah. I'm happy you did. That's pretty amazing. 

So it sounds like kind of your approach to connection is the idea that it not necessarily comes from doing more, but from being present and kind of saying yes to that. So I mean, what does that mean for you in practice as a leader, but as a person? I mean, aside from saying yes to airplane conversations. Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

I think that one of the most important things is just not being distracted. And whether that means you put your phone away, you turn it off, you put it someplace where you can't access it, I think that's step number one. 

Rio Laine: 

Hmm. 

Sara Smith: 

And then you really intently listen with your whole person and try to understand what that person is really saying to you. I think those are the two things that I really try to take into practice. And it can be hard some days. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. So unplugging and active listening. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Both of which, yes, are definitely difficult, especially we live in a time when we're so tied to our devices and we're just expected to be available every second of every day, and yeah, that's a difficult thing to accomplish. So it's ... Yeah, kudos for making that a priority. 

Sara Smith: 

Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

So in your role as kind of CFO for ALPS, how does that idea of connection show up in how you lead and make decisions? 

Sara Smith: 

Right. So I think one of the pieces of my job that is really important is building trust, right? You have to trust the numbers, you have to trust what the data that we're looking at is saying, and just the overall data set that you're looking at. And in order to get comfortable with the numbers, you have to be comfortable with the person, right? And you have to have that trust. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

So I think building and establishing strong relationships with the people that I work with is the number one way to build that trust and connection. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that is a really, really good point. If you don't trust the person, you're not so sure about those numbers. 

Sara Smith: 

Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. And when you're growing, the numbers are really important, so ... 

Sara Smith: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Oh, that's pretty awesome. I love how that kind of plays such an important role in your life, but also your leadership. Yeah, that's pretty great. 

So let's kind of shift again. I want to transition a little bit and talk about growth and how connection kind of plays into that as well. 

So ALPS has been growing pretty rapidly over the last few years, and growth can sometimes make it really hard to stay connected, particularly as we have more remote staff like myself and things move faster and change quickly. But it sounds like obviously for you connection is part of that formula for sustainable growth. And so in terms of kind of ALPs, what does sustainable growth mean to you, like financially and culturally? 

Sara Smith: 

Well, I think at the core of our business is we have to be financially stable and sound in order to pay claims and make sure that our insureds are in a safe place, right? 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. 

Sara Smith: 

And so I think that is at the foremost thought all the time is, are we financially stable, are we growing responsibly to help grow that base, and are we in it in the long term, right? I'm a big believer in long-term thinking, not short-term gains. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Sara Smith: 

And so in order to be sustainable, you have to think more long-term. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. And I love that. I mean, I've come from companies that have been in kind of hyper growth, they've grown very, very quickly, and it does tend to be quite shortsighted and really come at the cost of the people who are doing the work. 

Sara Smith: 

Correct. 

Rio Laine: 

And it makes me really happy to hear that we're thinking about it in terms of, is this sustainable for the long term? Because I think that's when you really find success, in that balance between financial success, building revenue, but also people success and culturally and having a strong company. 

Sara Smith: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

So how do you and kind of the larger leadership team at ALPS keep that sense of connection alive as the company grows? 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. So I think the senior leadership team, we've been through some ups and downs, and so we have a really good, solid understanding of who we are and how we interact. We have a dedicated Teams channel that we joke and talk on, and that helps form that sense of connection, especially when people are traveling so much. It's hard, right? We're not always in the office together at the same time. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

So that's great. And I think that also transcends down as well, right? Having just connection with your teams and building those cross-functional relationships is really important. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's definitely difficult when everyone's on the go all the time and trying to stay connected to that central hub. 

What's one kind of practice or habit that you think ALPS has embraced that's kind of maintaining that strong connected culture? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. I think there's probably different things in different departments that help kind of foster their own identity and culture, but overall holistically, I think that ALPS does a Coffee Talk every two weeks and that helps bring all the information together. We get to understand our employees a little bit better. We have an Employee Spotlight, we get to learn more about each other. And I think that only helps build that kind of connection. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Coffee Talk too, especially when we do the Employee Spotlight, getting to see everyone's pictures of their pets and their family and the fun stuff they do. 

Sara Smith: 

Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good thing that we do. Yeah. 

So as a finance leader, how do you see connection influencing business outcomes, whether is it through collaboration, innovation, decision making? 

Sara Smith: 

I think it's everything. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

I think the one misconception about finance is that we don't know what's going on in the business, but we know everything that's going on in the business. We have to. We have to understand the drivers and the levers that are bringing the numbers into focus and telling a story. So I think that collaboration between departments to get the story behind the numbers is really, really important. And so I think that's where we really serve our purpose, is storytelling among the different groups. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. And I find that misconception so interesting, because I mean ... I don't know, I'm a big true crime aficionado, but if you want to understand what happened, you look at the numbers, you look at the money. 

Sara Smith: 

That's correct. 

Rio Laine: 

What are they spending the money on? 

Sara Smith: 

Right. 

Rio Laine: 

That's how you know what's going on. So yeah, I would think that you'd know all the things that are going on. 

Sara Smith: 

That's right. You got to follow the pennies. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Awesome. So okay, let's kind of shift our focus and talk a little bit more about your personal life and how you spend your free time. 

Sara Smith: 

Hmm. 

Rio Laine: 

So you've mentioned that you love to get out in nature and you love to hop on your mountain bike and sometimes be completely off grid. So how does that help you kind of reconnect with what's important? Like how does that help you connect with, I guess, the things that are important in your life? 

Sara Smith: 

Right, right. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

Well, so part of the mountain biking pieces that I've done is bike packing, right? Where you go in the woods and the only thing you have to do that day is ride your bike. You have to get from point A to point B without crashing, keeping yourself hydrated and fed, and not have any animal encounters. But that's all you have to do, right? That is your job for the day. And that really puts things into focus and simplifies your outcome. 

And so that, I have really appreciated because it really ... I mean, you could die out there, right? So you get hyper focused on what you need to do today and nothing else really matters at that point. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. And I guess that's a really good time to kind of put down your phone and to be focused, and to practice that kind of active paying attention and being aware of where you are in your surroundings. 

Do you feel like that experience kind of teaches you anything in terms of leadership or how you approach it? 

Sara Smith: 

Oh, absolutely. I feel like there are lessons to be learned every time you do something like that. 

As an example, this one trip I did this summer, we found ourselves lost. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

And not really lost, but we had three different mapping devices. We had already gone 20 miles, we had to go 20 more, and what the trail was telling us, it just didn't sit right. It didn't seem right, right? And so one of the big decisions was what to do. "What do we do?" Right? "There's no one we can ask. We have no cell service. We are out in the woods." 

And I think trying to make a decision collectively, and when that can't be done, just making a decision and sticking to it and doing it. Because inaction is also a decision and one that doesn't generally work out very well. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And especially if you're in the middle of the woods. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. Exactly. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

So it sounds like kind of mountain biking teaches a lot about obstacles and trusting your instincts and maybe builds confidence? 

Sara Smith: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

What was it that first drew you to mountain biking? Like how did you first decide, "I'm going to get on a bike and do this?" 

Sara Smith: 

Well, I grew up in rural Montana and I didn't have any friends that lived anywhere near me, and so the only way to get anywhere was to get on a bike. I had to ride three miles to see my closest friend. 

And then as I got older, my brother and I shared a car, which also was not awesome, and so I could either ride the bus, which was not very cool when you were 16 years old, or I could ride my bike to school. And so I just started riding my bike and I haven't looked back. 

Rio Laine: 

Nice. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. 

Whereabouts have you gone mountain biking? Is there one place that really stands out to you that was your favorite? 

Sara Smith: 

Oh boy. They're all so different. 

There's a trail in Beartooth called the Line Creek Plateau, and you start riding at 10,000 feet and there's no trees. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, wow. 

Sara Smith: 

And so it feels like you're riding on the moon. It's like all tundra. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

The first time we did it, there wasn't much of a trail, and so the wisdom was, "Stay right. You'll know the end when you get there." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

And so it felt very kind of mystical in this journey. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

And then it drops to about 3000 feet in very short miles. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, wow. Wow. 

Sara Smith: 

So it's a great ride. It's one of my favorites. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. 

I love that kind of idea of like the mystical journey. It kind of sounds like your leadership journey too, right? 

Sara Smith: 

Right. 

Rio Laine: 

Like just moving through the world, like, "This is mystical, crazy times." Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

Exactly. 

Rio Laine: 

So speaking of kind of like the leadership journey and lessons in leadership and life, you've held many leadership roles in that span; finance, kind of strategy. So I want to kind of talk a little bit about what you've learned along the way and really what you see for the profession ahead, I mean in terms of CPAs. 

So I think my first question would be, how has your view of leadership evolved over time? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah, boy. I think that ... That's a great question. And I think about how much you learn from people that you work for and other leaders. And so you take some of that in yourself about either what to do or what not to do. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Sara Smith: 

So that's been a big journey. 

And I think as a young person, I thought, "Oh, you eventually figure it all out, right? You got it." And as you get older, you realize you never will have it ever and that the pursuit is constant. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

You're continually growing and evolving as you go along. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, which is kind of a beautiful thing about life. I mean, it'd be kind of boring if you got to a point and you're like, "I have this all figured out. I don't have to think anymore." 

Sara Smith: 

It's probably just so much easier, but ... 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, but it's- 

Sara Smith: 

[inaudible 00:18:00]. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, but it's kind of fun that you don't. Yeah. 

So kind of along that lines then, what advice would you give to leaders, especially maybe in a data driven or finance role? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. I think that when you look back at your life and you think about all the things that you've learned, most of that learning has come from making a mistake. And so giving yourself some grace when you do make a mistake. Just don't make the same mistake again, but really be willing to take a look at yourself, why you did it, and then how do you evolve to make it so it doesn't happen again? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, that kind of personal accountability is really important. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

Rio Laine: 

I think it's also something that's very difficult for a lot of people too. It can be a humbling experience to learn that you're not perfect and that you have to improve some stuff. Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, that's really good advice. Yeah. 

As the president of the Montana Society of CPAs, what do you hope to accomplish under your term this year, kind of in terms of connection? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. It's so hard because when you start this ... My presidency is only a year, and so you wonder how much you can actually get done. But then I also go back to my experience on the airplane and how just one small interaction can make a big difference. 

Rio Laine: 

Hmm. 

Sara Smith: 

And so I think that my challenge to our group is, "What kind of connection can you make? Can you make one connection this year that's new or different? How do you engage?" And my hope is by next year at our annual meeting, we have more people there, and more people talking to each other and I see less phones out. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good goal. It's a good goal to have. 

And I know they say ... Well, a lot of professions are evolving quickly, but the accounting profession is definitely one. 

Sara Smith: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Laine: 

You know, technology, automation, new expectations. How do you think connection can help the profession stay resilient and human? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. Well, I think the one thing is, I was just at a conference with a bunch of other CFOs and there is a lot of hesitancy to allow an AI bot to tell us what the numbers look like, right? 

Rio Laine: 

Hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Sara Smith: 

And it's that fundamental question about trust again. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

How do you get trust from something that's not alive and real, and how do you trust that number? And that's going to take some time, and you're going to have to have not accuracy of 60%, but accuracy of 100%. And we're just not there yet, but we're going to get there eventually. And so I think it's still continuing to build that trust one day and one person at a time. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And also, I mean, AI can't even figure out how many fingers a human has. So I feel like it probably shouldn't be trusted to run the numbers just yet. 

Sara Smith: 

Not yet. 

Rio Laine: 

It'll get there, but yeah, not quite yet. 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. Not yet. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

So what is one piece of advice that you would give your younger self starting out as a CPA? What would that be? 

Sara Smith: 

Yeah. I think, again, I would come back to just being open to learning constantly and then not being so hard on yourself when you do mess up, right? I think early in my career, I took things really personally, and that's not ever going to work out well. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

You have to forgive yourself once in a while when you screw up and just give yourself some grace. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. We could all use a little more grace from ourselves. You're your own worst critic, they say, so ... 

Sara Smith: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

All right. So we've got just a couple more minutes. I'm going to wrap it up with one more question kind of tying into your theme of connection for this year. So how do you plan to make space for more connection in your own life this year? 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. You know, it would not be great if I set that theme and then I didn't do anything myself. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

So a couple of things that I've been working on is just when I am going to conferences or meeting new people is being the one that says hello first. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Sara Smith: 

Right? Which is hard for me. 

Rio Laine: 

It's hard. 

Sara Smith: 

I'm not a super extroverted person. And so taking that first step is one that's hard, but really important that I do it. 

I've been reaching out to old friends that I haven't talked to for a long time, and that's been really fun to reconnect with them; and just having really good, deep conversations about hard things, I think is really important. 

Rio Laine: 

No, that's fantastic. And it is really hard to be the first person to say hello. For myself, I have a very public facing job and, yeah, it is difficult. You're just like, "Oh." 

But it's nice to remember that everybody is probably feeling that way- 

Sara Smith: 

Exactly. It's so true. 

Rio Laine: 

... And they're so thankful that somebody did it. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

Rio Laine: 

So it's good work to be doing. 

Sara Smith: 

Yes. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Awesome. Well, Sara, thank you so much for sharing your time and your insights. I'm really, really happy that we got to sit down and have this conversation, and it's really impressive how you've shown that connection isn't just a personal goal, it can be a leadership philosophy and a business advantage really. So yeah, I mean, I think from the trails of Montana to the boardroom, your message definitely reminds us that slowing down and being present often leads to the strongest momentum. 

So yeah, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Sara Smith: 

Thank you, Rio. I enjoyed our conversation. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

All right. And that's a wrap, folks. Thank you so much for joining us on this installment of the ALPs In Brief Podcast. We will see you again for the next round. 

—

Rio Laine: 

Hey, everyone. I'm Rio Laine with ALPS Insurance, and welcome to the ALPS In Brief Podcast. Today, we'll be talking to ALPS COO Chris Newbold about wellness and ALPS's new Solo Attorney Wellness Trends Report. Hi, Chris. Thanks for joining me today. 

Chris Newbold: 

Hey, thanks, Rio. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. So I would like to start with maybe giving you a chance to introduce yourself to our audience, a little bit about who you are and what you do at ALPS. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I'm Chris Newbold. I'm the chief operating officer of ALPS, and one of my great passions, I think, in terms of giving back to the profession has been thinking about the notion of attorney wellness. And not just attorney wellness, but well-being in law more broadly, and that's given me the opportunity to really think about how the legal profession is structured, what people are looking for, where they may perhaps were missing the mark, and then thinking about the systemic reasons why. 

I think a lot of lawyers today are struggling in terms of their selection of a profession in which they're not necessarily finding the professional satisfaction that they may have sought when they went into law school. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, I think, as we all know, the concept of wellness and taking care of yourself as a lawyer is relatively new. Up until recently, there was a lot of stigma around that. So it's excellent that we actually get a chance to talk about that and are starting to see good work and traction as far as that's concerned. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. And the movement, the attorney well-being movement is almost about 10 years old now in terms of a groundbreaking report coming out that stimulated a lot of thought in legal circles around where is this profession, where does it need to go, and then thinking strategically about that. 

And again, I've been really fortunate to be at the epicenter of a lot of those conversations in terms of convening groups, convening stakeholders, thinking about research and other things that we can do to kind of document where is the profession and where does it need to go so that we're attracting more people into the profession and not seeing more people exit the profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, speaking of groundbreaking reports, we're going to be talking about ALPS's Solo Attorney Wellness Trends Report, which you have really spearheaded an effort in gathering important data and information about wellness as it relates to solo attorneys. So before we dive into that, I'd like to kind of explore your history in the wellness space. And now, you've been a proponent for well-being in law, and you've done a lot of work with the Institute for Well-Being in Law for some time now. So tell me how you got here and why this is something that really resonates with you. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Thinking back on my experiences, one of the things that we were really looking to do is to understand... I went to a small law school with 75 students, and everybody was very excited, I think, about going to law school. Yet, now that I'm out of law school for more than 20 years, the number of folks who have actually reflected and said, "I really am proud of my decision, and I've really enjoyed practicing law," a lot lower than I think that you would obviously think. And so, I think there was an expectations gap between what people thought versus the reality. 

And I think one of the things that... Again, I started to lean in on the subject, wrote part of the section for the groundbreaking report, spent three years as the co-chair of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being, and then we parlayed that into creating the Institute for Well-Being in Law, which is something that is really kind of the preeminent think tank in the lawyer well-being space. And so, that organization continues to work to elevate the nature of discussion in legal circles about where this particular issue sits and where we need to go. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. And just for our audience at home, the kind of initial report that you're referring to was produced by the ABA. 

Chris Newbold: 

It was actually not. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, wow. 

Chris Newbold: 

It was actually produced by a consortium of groups that were really interested in it. It was the Path to Well-Being in Law, and it provided a number of different recommendations for where the legal profession had needed to go, from the judiciary to lawyer assistance programs, to law firms, to a whole, again, consortium of groups. ABA was part of that, but not necessarily it being kind of an ABA report in and of itself. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. Okay. Okay. Excellent. So in terms of attorney wellness, how do you see that kind of impacting not just individuals, but the broader profession? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think you said it well earlier, which is, to be a good lawyer, one has to be a healthy lawyer. And when you have healthy lawyers serving their clients, you're generally going to get better legal services, better results. The notion of what lawyers do is solve problems affecting conflicts within society. And when lawyers aren't well, when they're overstressed, when they're overburdened, when they're burnt out, when they're subject to substance abuse, you can kind of see, when they're not at their best, it's hard to deliver legal services in a way that allows the profession to function well and its ability to serve society well. 

So I think there's a real notion that to be a good lawyer, one has to be a healthy lawyer, and that notion, I think, is carrying over to why law firms and bar associations are so interested in the issue, because if we're all unhealthy, then we're not able to ultimately serve what we're here to do, which is to serve the interest of clients. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And, I mean, I know we've kind of had this conversation off podcast earlier, but yeah, there is definitely a lot to be said for taking care of yourself so that you can do the best work possible and giving yourself that time. And I know that's something that has been typically very difficult for lawyers. There's been a lot of stigma around mental health and well-being. And so, it's nice to see that that is starting to be something that is a major focus. Well, not starting. Has been for a while, but is really coming to the forefront of people's consciousness. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. And it's a tough issue, because you have to think about the nature of the profession itself. Right? We're structured in an adversarial system with people pitting one against the other. And so, there's natural conflict. And when you have conflict, a lot of times, that brings a lot of stress and pressure, and you have a lot of Type A personalities that are very motivated and trying to be vigorous advocates on behalf of their clients. 

And so, you think about the profession, the personalities, and the task at hand, and you get the perfect storm of why well-being can sometimes be ignored, and I think a lot of us are focused on trying to bring a little bit of that focus back and ultimately create an environment in which people feel a genuine sense of professional satisfaction being a lawyer, which I think that, unfortunately, we're probably not as high on that standard as we need to be. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. Well, hopefully, we can get there, and I think this report is definitely helping to pave the way for that. So tell me a little bit about what inspired you and ALPS to conduct this research and this survey and to really dig into not just attorney wellness, but solo-specific wellness. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think that we were really thinking internally. Obviously, ALPS itself has an interest in serving the solo community. That's one of the reasons that we exist. But I think more holistically, the notion of the solo practitioner, there's a lot of them out there. Right? 49% of private practitioners are solo practitioners. And when you look at the research in the well-being space, most of it is, there is really no definitive report, like ALPS just produced, that actually gets at this particular demographic. 

Yes, there's issues on substance abuse and on stress and hardships and so forth, and kind of broader surveys that look at the totality of the profession, but with the solos being such a big part of the community, to not have any specific research on solos was a real void. ALPS wanted to step in and fill that void. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And it makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. I think solos tend to be overlooked in a lot of different respects, which is, it's nice to see that we're spending the time to give them the resources and information they need to move forward. 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. 

Rio Laine: 

So do you want to tell me a little bit about how our survey participants were selected for that? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. The survey participants were ALPS policyholders. One of the great things about ALPS is we have a national geographic footprint. And so, our ability to know that we were able to enlist and invite a large group of solo practitioners into the survey itself ultimately ended up with approximately 300 respondents, which is certainly a scientifically solid sample size to be able to execute on a survey of this magnitude. And so, responses from around the country, primarily all being from the ALPS policyholder base. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. So going into this survey, were there any kind of maybe trends or results that you thought were going to happen but maybe came up different or were surprising, or anything that surprised you in the data analysis? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Again, I would say that most of the research that's been produced on well-being in law has generally cast what I would call kind of a glaring reality of how hard things are. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

When you think about things like depression and suicide and substance abuse, I mean, it generally is going to naturally come out in what I would call a negative perspective of the reality of what's affecting lawyers. One of the things that was really kind of cool and, I think, enlightening about the report was the number of professionally satisfied and happy lawyers we saw kind of saying, "I really like what I do." And I think there's something to be said as you kind of think about why lawyers do what they do and what professional setting they put themselves in. 

I think there's a lot to learn from these solo results that may give a pathway for people who are looking for things like flexibility and general greater professional satisfaction. And so, I was pleasantly surprised at how much of our community ultimately came back and said, "I'm proud to be a solo, and I really enjoy what comes along with being a solo, including what it does for my personal wellness." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, speaking of being satisfied, I think 74% of the respondents said that they were either satisfied or very satisfied with their careers. So how do you interpret that result considering the broader legal profession stress data that's out there? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I mean, again, just think of the numbers. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Three out of four said that they're very satisfied or somewhat satisfied being a solo practitioner. My sense is that the higher that you go up the law firm size hierarchy, the lower that number ultimately gets. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And I can't definitively point to specific numbers on that. But when you think about notions of the billable hour, the expectations, how guilty folks feel for taking a vacation, how much they ignore their own personal well-being when it comes to physical activity and exercise and diet and all of those things, again, there are lots of lawyers who are thriving in all manners of the spectrum, but I would pose to you that finding three out of four in the solo space is going to be the highest that you're going to see of any grouping in private practice. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's pretty common at larger law firms. There's a lack of flexibility in your schedule, a lack of bandwidth and time for yourself. But it's interesting, because conversely, solos in our survey cited flexibility as the top benefit to being a solo attorney. So can you tell us what are some other ways or some ways that solos are experiencing flexibility in their practice? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Again, I think a lot of it comes back to work-life balance. Right? Their ability to be able to call the shots, dictate and control their schedule. When you're in a multimember firm, particularly the larger firm that you get, there's a lot of expectations, that you're in the office, that you're in the office until your senior partner leaves the office. 

I mean, there's just kind of built-in notions, and I think what our solo community is finding is that ability to be able to chart your own journey. If you've got a kids' choir concert that you want to go to, that you can go to that without feeling guilty, because you can ultimately manage the schedule in a manner that fits what you want. You can think about the caseload that you take on. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

You don't have 1,800-, 2,100-hour billing requirements. You're going to build and construct a professional journey and a professional life that suits who you are, what you need. And for a lot of people, that's not necessarily compensation-oriented. It can be around family. It can be around the types of customers that you ultimately want to take on. You have the ability to say, "I'll take that customer, but not that customer." Right? I think there's a lot of notion of autonomy and ability to set the direction of where you want your professional life to go, and I think that that's pretty exciting for folks that we found in the survey. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And do you think that's something that a lot of people who are considering going off on their own and becoming solos would even think about that is an option for them? I mean, do you think that flexibility is something that they would even be like, "Oh, yeah. Actually, that is an opportunity"? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think it's absolutely calculated, and I think the reason that we know that is, oftentimes, people who become solos have started their career in a different capacity. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

So they have reflected upon what they like and what they don't like, and ultimately are making a decision that may fit better the lifestyle that they want to ultimately live, and it's really interesting, I think. As we think about coming out of the pandemic, I think there was this notion of a great reassessment of, "Where am I at in my life? What do I want?" And a lot of, I think, lawyers... 

I have a tendency to believe that there are more lawyers coming into the small firm space, because they want more of that autonomy. They've learned, again, some of the pressures and some of the stigmas and other things that they haven't found particularly appealing. And so, more folks, I think, are naturally kind of gravitating to taking control of that and then focusing on the things that they want to prioritize in life, both personally and professionally. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, which is a pretty empowering thing to be able to have that influence over your own kind of career and, for lack of a better term, your destiny. 

Chris Newbold: 

But I should also say it's scary. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? There's a lot of risk in that value proposition, because there's... And we know that among solos, it's among the more transient of populations, and not everybody can go out and hang up a shingle and do that. But again, I think the ones that are really kind of thoughtful about, "I've been in practice for 10 years. I'm looking for this." Generally, when they make that decision, I think that they are finding that it's the right decision for them, but it does take some conviction and some courage, frankly, to kind of take a bet on yourself. But I think that those who are doing it are finding that the rewards of taking that risk are outpacing the risks of failure and otherwise. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And along the same vein, I mean, something that I thought was really interesting about this survey and that I think would also be a risk is the risk of being lonely. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

I mean, particularly if you're going from a larger firm and you've got lots of coworkers and support staff, other folks around. So I would assume that a lot of solo lawyers would have said, "Yes, I experience a lot of loneliness." But interestingly enough, most respondents in the survey said that they actually don't experience much loneliness. And so, I'm really curious to know, why do you think that is? I mean- 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think a lot of it has to do with the stage of career that some of those solos may be in. Right? If you had to hang up your shingle right out of law school and you didn't have a good connection base within the legal community already, I think that would be difficult. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

But if you've been out 15 years, you've met people. You've litigated cases against other people. You've referred cases or had cases referred to you. And so, your network of people that you know, you know other solos. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

You can reach out to other solos, go grab a cup of coffee, and then I think they're also garnering support from their families and their spouses and other entities. It does get a little bit challenging when you don't have that person down the office that you can knock on the door and say, "I'm struggling with this particular set of facts or circumstances or this relationship." But that's where, I think, there's a real opportunity for other organized bars to step into that void, thinking about state bars, local bars, because I think there's a real opportunity for them to add value to the solo legal community because of some of those loneliness elements. 

But I think, again, the report would tell you that a lot of these folks are pretty well-grounded and have their priorities in line. And so, whether it's, again, exercising and doing the things that make you naturally healthy, I think they have existing networks and professional relationships, and then I think they're making good lifestyle choices. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. So what's some advice then that you would offer to someone who say, "I wanted to be a solo right out of law school"? I mean, obviously, they're going to need to be intentional about building that network. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Meet people. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Go to local bar meetings. Introduce yourself. Talk about who you are. Seek advice. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? I think one of the great things that you can do in life when you don't know a whole lot is ask other people who've been doing it a long time. Right? And that notion of being able to seek advice. You'd be surprised by seeking the advice of others, how much natural stuff comes back to you in terms of other referrals down the road. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

So, again, get out there, network, shake some hands. I know a lot of folks like to just hunker down in an office in this day and age. I think that's the wrong move if you're going out there and trying to build a firm from scratch. I think you got to get out there, tell people what you're doing, invite people to coffee, seek that advice, and I think you'll set yourself up for success. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. That's fantastic. And I think I would also add to that, I mean, don't be shy, and it's okay to not know the answer to something. You're not born knowing everything, and there's definitely another professional out there who has probably asked themselves the same question or handled the same issue. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. And on a representation side of things, you can actually also ask them to be a co-counsel on the case. You can share cases. If it's above what you've done or the sophistication level, you can refer to them. You can participate in watching how that all goes. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

But again, it's that notion of being a lifelong learner and understanding how you can benefit by watching others and seeking the counsel of others. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. So let's kind of shift our focus a little now to the topic of burnout. Now, this is something that is very common amongst attorneys, and 44% of our respondents said that they had experienced occupational burnout at some point, but also, though, they reported high levels of satisfaction, as we discussed earlier. So how do you reconcile those two things? I mean, you've experienced burnout, but you're also very satisfied. How do we get there? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Representing clients and knowing that you have the livelihood of others depending upon your ability to get to solutions? Stressful. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

It's just stressful work. Being a lawyer can be stressful. You think about appearing in front of a judge, conducting a deposition, drafting a complex transaction. There's a lot that can be riding. Sometimes millions of dollars can be riding on your crafting the right type of a transactional document. And so, I think the notion of burnout is, I would also kind of put it in this way, that you're going to see peaks and valleys in terms of law practice. 

Sometimes you're all in on a trial, and then you kind of crash, and then everything kind of level sets, and sometimes it's not as busy. Right? And so, again, I think, as with most professions, there are going to be fluctuations in the level of stress and anxiety that's created by the workload, and that's where I think some of the coping techniques of how are you dealing with that at those times of burnout becomes so important for you to not go further down that hole, but to kind of maintain a healthy equilibrium that allows you to be your best professional self. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that really kind of ties back to the notion of flexibility too. If you're finding that your workload is such that you cannot, it's just overwhelming, and it can't be manageable, then there's an opportunity to maybe pull back and reassess and adjust. 

Chris Newbold: 

But you got to be really self-reflective, I think, to be able to do that, because I do think one of probably the great stressors of a solo practitioner would be taking on too much than you can handle. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? Obviously from a malpractice perspective of caution that, because again, one of the great benefits is you don't have to take on all clients. Again, at some point in your career, you're going to have to take on clients because you need the revenue to be able to do that, but the notion of really being thoughtful about your caseload and what's the right amount of caseload relative to what you can handle, you got to be self-reflective of being able to judge that well. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think our survey respondents were definitely reflective, because they did cite workload as kind of the top stressor. So I think aside from self-reflection and being aware of your workload, technology is probably also a good option to help. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

What are some ways that technology could maybe support with some of those administrative tasks, those things that contribute to a heightened workload? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think one of the realities of solo practitioners is sometimes what they really love doing is lawyering, and not necessarily running the business. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And the reality is, when you open up a solo practice, you are also running a business. And I think we're fortunate that we're picking up more and more tailwind of technology being an important asset that allows lawyers to do what they love and to rely on technology for the administration of the firm itself, and that's also reducing the cost of entry into the solo space. There used to be a time where you had to go hire a full-time paralegal to be part of your staff as well. 

But if you could take out a 60 to $80,000 expense reliance of technology, we haven't even talked about artificial intelligence yet and some of the kind of cautious optimism that technology and AI may be, again, allowing more people to do what they love most, which is lawyering, and doing what they least love about lawyering, and pushing that toward artificial intelligence and the leveraging of technology and case management systems that I think continue to get better and better and better, which allows... Those used to be the domains for larger firms, that they always had all the riches of technology. Now you see almost the democratization of technology coming into the small space, which opens up more opportunity for more people to come into the space. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And more opportunity for flexibility in your practice- 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. 

Rio Laine: 

... and structuring your time. Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. And efficiency. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And collecting on your billable hours as opposed to writing those off. Again, when you think about the law practice management systems, they're getting better and better at tracking what are you billing, what are you not billing, what are the causation elements of that, and really feeling like technology is reducing the barriers inherent in people wanting to pursue these types of solo practitioner careers. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. And speaking of folks moving towards the solo space, and you have a theory that people are kind of, in larger, larger numbers, leaving big law and shifting into solo practice. So what do you think is driving that migration? 

Chris Newbold: 

I would say two things. Again, I think the pandemic was an important kind of demarcation point for a lot of lawyers to say, "What am I doing? Am I genuinely happy or professionally satisfied in practicing law?" And for those who answered negatively, I think that they've thought about, "Maybe I should take my career in a different direction." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

And so, I think one path to do that would be thinking about a solo practice career. The second is, again, that seeking of flexibility and work-life balance. More and more of us are thinking about considerations like family, parenting time, spouse time, vacation time, and living a well-rounded life where, historically, for a lot of lawyers, being a lawyer was being a lawyer 24/7. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And that came with a lot of consequence, I think, to relationships and so forth. And so, when people, again, think about... I think one of the real interesting elements is the generational realities of what law students are now coming out and saying and what questions they're asking in their interviews as they think about where do they want to go to work, and they're asking about, "Tell me about the wellness commitment of this firm in terms of me being a well-rounded person." That didn't used to be the case. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

And so, they are thinking about things like flexibility, and that may come. Many firms pay large dollar amounts to associates to come into that firm, but I think that's becoming more and more of a, "Is that exactly what I want? Am I chasing compensation, or am I chasing quality of life?" Most people would want both. So I think that there is a right balance, and I'm not saying it's one versus the other, but I think that there is some real thoughtfulness coming generationally and societally as to, "I only have certain amount of hours in the day. Where do I want those hours to go?" And they're tending toward maybe that being a little bit less work in favor of a more well-rounded work-life balance. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. And it's interesting, because that is definitely reflected in the survey. I mean, solos tend to be much more proactive about their physical health, about their sleep schedules, taking regular breaks, et cetera, and that's certainly not the case as far as the broader legal community goes. So other than, say, generational kind of considerations, why do you think solos tend to be much more proactive when taking care of their health? 

Chris Newbold: 

Well, again, I think they have a keener sense of probably who they are and what they're looking for. Again, they probably have experienced some things that have caused them to migrate to wanting to do something different. And when you know yourself, when you know where you are, when you're at your best, there is a tendency for you to then run to that direction. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And again, the only thing that I think has held a lot of people back is, well, a couple things. One, it's pretty scary to be able to do that. The other part of it, frankly, and this is a totally different podcast, frankly, is the realities of law student debt and how many people feel boxed into a career that they generally don't love, because they have to pay law school debts that had them come out of law school with over $100,000 of debt, and they don't feel like they can take that bet on themselves, because they're nervous about the obligations they have in terms of law school debt repayment. 

So that's creating what I would call financial anxiety. That does affect the well-being of a lawyer, because when you feel like you're, in essence, doing a law job because you have to service a debt obligation and maybe even doing something that's in an area of practice that you would have been like, "I would have never thought I would be doing this in law. This is not why I went to law school," and some of those realities, I think, are really real for folks who are engaged in law, but in spots where they don't feel like they really want to be for that reason. 

Rio Laine: 

That makes a lot of sense. Aside from solos kind of having that experience where maybe they kind of had a moment of realization where they were like, "Oh, I need to actually prioritize my well-being," something that I found really interesting and surprising was that only 22% of respondents actually sought mental health treatment despite having experienced high stress. So I'm curious, I mean, what kind of barriers still exist to that, and what are the reasons maybe that someone would be hesitant to kind of seek that support? 

Chris Newbold: 

My hunch, first of all, is that number is probably even underreported on the survey itself. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? A lot of people, I think, are still grappling with... I think one of the things that's been really awesome in society is a willingness for people to talk about their mental health challenges. When you see instances like Simone Biles in the Olympics, that normalizes the reality of people saying, "It's okay to have mental health struggles, and it's okay to seek help." But I will still say, in legal circles, that ability to raise your hand and say, "I need help," is still kind of generally frowned upon as weakness. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And so, that notion of overcoming that and saying, just as when we are dealing with physical ailments, we go to a physical therapist. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? When you're dealing with mental challenges, going and seeking the support of somebody who's trained in that particular area is really a sign of strength. And I think that those numbers over time, generationally, societally, and within the legal sector itself, I think that they will continue to increase. 

But we also have a lot of lawyers who think pretty fondly of their ability to be their own problem-solver, and they just kind of naturally kind of say, "I got this," even though sometimes... And a lot of times, there's probably a strong support group around them as well who are probably helping them through some of those issues. So I think it's probably underreported a little bit. It's happening more than you think, but there's still a stigma out there. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. Absolutely. And do you think that bar associations and legal insurers could maybe be doing more to address that stigma and to break down those barriers and to support solos in reporting and saying, when they do need help, to reach out? 

Chris Newbold: 

I do. I do. I think the ability for bar associations in specifically to be able to normalize asking for help as being okay, I think, is a real opportunity for them to kind of take the bully pulpit as a voice of the profession and be able to do that. We go to a lot of annual meetings, as you know, at ALPS, and that ability, when you have a wellness panel, to have two or three people who are there to share their stories about challenges, about resilience, about some of the things that they did when they were at their low point, that normalizes behavior for everybody else, and you'd be surprised at how many people walk up to them afterwards and say, "Thank you for sharing your story," because they are struggling as well. And again, that notion of normalizing. 

And then I think bar associations, more broadly, they have that ability to, I think, build community, particularly in the solo... When you're in a multimember firm, you have a natural community. When you're a solo, I think bar associations have a real opportunity to become a community-oriented builder of a section or a space for people to come together and share common challenges or common pursuits. 

And it doesn't even have to be law-related, frankly. I think that there's innovative ways for bar associations to be able to do that, but I think there's a real opportunity for us as legal insurers who care about solos and bar associations to, in essence, work in partnership to be able to greater provide the support infrastructure for these individuals to thrive in their practice. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, I think I would also question, I mean, do you think there's a connection between mental health and frequency of claims from a malpractice standpoint? If you're struggling, you think it's more likely that you'll have a claim? 

Chris Newbold: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I mean, because when you begin a spiral, when you move into a depressed mode, when the stress and anxiety is too much, you're not in your game. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? When you're not on your game, you miss the statute of limitations. You don't do a conflict check. You don't do some of the things that healthy lawyers are naturally doing. And again, that's when you turn to substance abuse, self-medication, and other things. And we have seen in our own claims files, just when things start to spiral downward, the likelihood of a claim is going to shoot upward. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. Yup. That makes sense. Makes sense. So stepping back a little bit from, say, mental health support, I mean, do you believe that the profession as a whole is doing enough to support solos? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I mean, I think I have said this publicly that I think that the well-being movement in general is focused on a lot of great things, but one of the things that needs more attention is the solo community. Now, you could argue that the results of our survey may indicate that they may not need as much help as other portions of the legal community. 

But again, I think that there are notions of a lot of people out there practicing law, perhaps on the lonely scale, workload, burnout, and stress because of the nature of the job, who have a greater, not likelihood, but propensity to find themselves in a struggling spot more quickly without infrastructure support underneath them or a safety net. 

And so, I think, again, state bars are thinking about that more and more. But again, I'm cautiously optimistic that with technology, with greater discussion, with reduced stigmatization on a variety of these types of issues, that you will start to see, hopefully, these numbers continue to kind of go in a positive direction, because I think, again, when you set the baseline for the profession, it's generally a negative story. I think this is an indication of where our profession can go if we take some of what people are looking for and embrace that from a flexibility and work-life balance perspective. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. So based on the findings and the somewhat surprising findings of the reports, what is some advice that you would offer to someone considering solo practice? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Do your research. Talk to folks who are already engaged in it. Understand the challenges before you decide to take that jump. Again, there are fewer and fewer barriers that I think are natural impediments for people wanting to take that jump, but know what they are. Be aware of what they are. Try to mitigate those, and then go out and find more community within your network. 

And I think, again, I'm optimistic in this particular space that people will find what they're looking for and generally reflect on their legal career and say, "Moving into becoming a solo practitioner was the best thing I ever did." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

And we hear that story time and time again. We heard it in the anecdotal comments in the survey, that people are genuinely finding their groove as opposed to leaving the profession, which is a net brain drain, and we need more lawyers to fill that. Staying in the profession allows the profession to grow. As the profession grows, you can meet more and more of society's needs from a problem-solving perspective, and we know that there are a lot of needs out there that generally go unmet. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's fantastic advice. So just to kind of wrap it up, I'm curious to know, what are some trends that you think that we'll see over the next five years? So if we were to do this survey again in five years, do you think there's anything that would continue? Do you think there's new things that would emerge? What are your thoughts? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think the circumstances are right. Societally, we're talking about mental health more. Generationally, folks are being raised in a way in which they're paying more attention to those types of things. And with technology coming, artificial intelligence coming, I think that I'm excited about the prospects for people who want to pursue a solo career, having the means, the willingness, and the courage to naturally kind of go in that direction. 

Is it going to work out for everybody? No. Right? But how much will you learn about yourself knowing that you have this great, valuable law degree that your passion is helping people, and then you can do that in a way that doesn't have you bill your time necessarily in eight-minute increments and feel like you're giving up a lot of the things that I think a lot of lawyers struggle with? 

And generally, my greatest fear is that people go to law school and ultimately find that they regret the decision that they made. I speak in front of a lot of annual bar meetings. There could be 500 people in the room. I'll ask a very simple question, "If your son or daughter came to you and said, 'Should I go to law school?' would you advise for them to go?" And generally speaking, less than half of the room will raise their hand, and that's a shame. 

Rio Laine: 

That is a shame. 

Chris Newbold: 

That indicates that there are systemic issues that people are sitting there going, "I regret the decision that I made." And I am optimistic that through this discussion, through these types of reports and the findings, that we can find a better way for people to thrive and really enjoy being a private practitioner in the legal profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Awesome. Well, I really hope that that is the case, because, I mean, we need all the lawyers we can get, really. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

Definitely. 

Chris Newbold: 

And one of the things, again, what happens with lawyers who are unhappy is they do generally leave the profession. The numbers are pretty staggering. The number of women lawyers who have left the profession, even though they make up more than half the law school classes. Right? Again, you talk about issues of flexibility, acceptance, inclusivity. There are some real devastating impacts on the profession's ability to serve the legal needs of the country when we haven't set up the construct for people to thrive. 

And so, I'm most excited about how do we identify those, address those, and then create an environment in which professional satisfaction is where people generally sit there and say, "I'm really proud of being a lawyer, and I don't regret being a lawyer. I'm actually proud to be in this space and the work that I can do to help other people." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Proud and satisfied. 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. 

Rio Laine: 

That's what we're going for. Great. Well, thanks so much for taking time to sit down with me and talk about the survey and the trends report, Chris. 

Chris Newbold: 

Thanks, Rio. 

Rio Laine: 

Really appreciate it. It's always great to hear your insights. 

Chris Newbold: 

It was fun. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Thank you so much. 

Chris Newbold: 

All right. 

Rio Laine: 

So thank you so much, everybody, for joining us. We'll see you next time on the ALPS In Brief Podcast. 

—

Transcript: 

Rio Laine: 

Hello and welcome. I'm Rio Laine, the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS Insurance. And today I have a chance to sit down with our CEO and fearless leader, David Bell, and we'll be talking about what's happening at ALPS, how the last year has gone, our vision moving forward, and also talk about how far we've come since the 2020 pandemic. Hello, David. Welcome. 

David Bell: 

Thank you, Rio, for having me on. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, thanks for joining me. It's always a pleasure to get a chance to sit down and talk with you. 

David Bell: 

For me too. I look forward to the conversation. 

Rio Laine: 

100%. Fabulous. So do you want to take a minute, David, to just tell the audience a bit about yourself, how you came to be at ALPS, a little bit about your background. 

David Bell: 

Sure. Well, I've been in the insurance industry my entire career since college. I joined Chubb Insurance and was with Chubb for a number of years. And then in the wake of 9/11, Chubb AIG and Goldman Sachs Capital Partners formed a joint venture, and I went with Chubb's Capital to help start at an organization called Allied World, AWAC. And so over the course of a decade living in Bermuda, we built that business up, ultimately took it public. 

And then skipping a few chapters of this book, ultimately, my wife and I decided to come back to Montana where we first met three decades ago, where she is originally from and where we both went to college. And coming back to Montana, I had the opportunity to take the helm at ALPS. And it has been a true blessing for a dozen years to work alongside the men and women at ALPS and doing what we're going to talk about today. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so you've been at the helm of ALPS for about 12 years now. And during that time it seems that you've steered the company through a lot of really exciting changes and transitions and also perhaps some uncertainty, probably most notably like the 2020 pandemic. I think we can all agree that was a very interesting time all around. 

So I'd like to start with talking about the years since the pandemic and the last time we sat down with you, which was in 2020. Now, obviously ALPS is still here and thriving, but I'm curious to know what is something that you feel that you could point to that was the most important factor in helping us navigate that time and also what was something that helped our insureds navigate that time as well? 

David Bell: 

The pandemic time? 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

David Bell: 

Certainly just solidarity. I think as a country we came together, as a world, in a lot of cases, we came together. And at ALPS, that was particularly true. To be fair, ALPS has employees in a dozen states, but the nucleus of the organization is in the home office in Missoula, Montana. And Montana did not have a number of the challenges that the larger cities had, particularly with population density. 

When you have a global pandemic and airborne transmittable viruses, not having the same type of population density did help us. But everybody at ALPS really rose to the occasion. Our technology was ready to allow people to be working remotely. We were also able to bring people back into the office much, much earlier than I think larger cities were able to do. 

But most importantly, I think people rose to the occasion. They understood that they had the need to balance the challenges and the opportunities that they had confronted at home, and then also the responsibilities that we continued to have at the office. And I was so proud of everybody. It was week by week. 

We were intensely communicative, always together, always talking about what our objectives were, people socializing what some of their challenges were, whether they were uniquely related to the pandemic or just in general. And I think we worked through those, and I think we taught ourselves a lot of valuable lessons during the time of the pandemic that have proven very useful in the months and years that have followed. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. What is a lesson that comes to mind that you feel was maybe an important one for you as CEO of ALPS? Was there something that you learned that maybe you didn't expect to learn or that really helped you guide the company through? 

David Bell: 

Sure. Well, I think one of the most critical ingredients for any organization is for it to evolve and improve. And that requires change. And people, humans are just change resistant. It's in our nature. We love what we're familiar with. And what the pandemic did was it forced all of us into a period of change. And so as we were able to adjust to those changes and in many cases, adopt new technologies and processes, I think it opened people's minds to doing things differently. 

And we were able to leverage that in the years that have followed the pandemic to constantly revisit the way we do things, to bring more and more efficiencies, to make the customer experience better, easier, faster, to make the experience of being an employee better and the experience of being an employer from a managerial and overall organizational perspective better as well. 

And so the pandemic was incredibly difficult. But like most tragedies, most challenges, there are silver linings. And I think there were a number of silver linings for us coming out of the pandemic that have allowed ALPS to succeed even more than we would have frankly, had we not all endured that challenging time together. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that time really inspired people to become very resilient and push themselves to do things and accept realities that maybe they couldn't have been able to before or were less willing to, particularly with adopting new technologies and things. So do you think that our ability to adjust and adopt that change supported our insureds through that time as well? 

David Bell: 

I do, yes. I think by committing ourselves to allowing our insureds to keep their policies and keep them timely and seamless, and also our insureds were having a lot of structural changes forced upon them from the pandemic. They were generally not working in the office. And so the exercise that they had historically gone through for years related to their malpractice and other insurance coverages was done in the office and through a certain process in the office. 

That needed to be overnight and without warning changed to being done from home. Some of them relocated, some permanently, some of them went on the move and started to become a mobile lawyer. And so we needed to adopt our processes to accommodate all of the various iterations that our policyholders had to undertake. And I think by doing that, it also prepared us to just be more adaptable in general and things unrelated to COVID contingency plans. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel like that's a really good thing for us to carry forward is that adaptability. 

David Bell: 

Yes. And as you said, I think resiliency was a critical ingredient. I think a lot of us, and this is probably a general observation as well, the pandemic acquainted us with fear in ways that I think a lot of people had not really been acquainted with before. And it taught us a lot about ourselves, some great and some not so great, but we all learned from the experiences no matter which side of the ledger it rests. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that was a very shared collective experience, feeling that fear and uncertainty. And despite there being a lot of maybe tension at times, I think we all came through that having experienced something that, I mean, arguably changed us, but also made us stronger as a result. 

David Bell: 

And when a team endures a challenge together, whether that team is a company or a country or humanity, we do come out the other end of it with a better sense of resiliency and camaraderie. And so there's a lot of things to worry about in the future, but there's also a lot of things to celebrate and take comfort in. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, I've been at ALPS now for about a year and a half, and I will say that the camaraderie and that kind of team element that I feel at the company, it's very obvious that everybody is really, I guess, happy to be working together and it has maybe come through a difficult thing and are stronger because of it. And so I feel like that really permeates and is very obvious too when I think about working at ALPS and also how our customers see our dynamic and how we approach things now. 

David Bell: 

Absolutely. I mean, in my role playing a part of the equation of trying to create and help foster a certain type of intentional company culture, making sure that people feel safe and heard is really the only path to give people that will allow them to unleash their own sense of creativity. If they don't feel valued and heard and they don't feel safe as though... 

In some organizations, unfortunately, people are constantly not sharing their thoughts and their ideas for fear that they will be rejected or that it will put somebody off or whatever. I think one thing that we've really tried to do, and we're not perfect in this or anything else, but I think we have been largely successful is assuring people that as a company and that for the people around everyone else, we are for you and we want you to participate in helping make us better. 

And you're heard. It doesn't mean that we adopt everybody's ideas. That's not realistic. But if people feel they've genuinely been heard and that their idea has been genuinely considered, there's a real sense of teamwork that goes into that. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that has certainly been my experience. It's quite refreshing actually to be able to be given the space to have an idea and also to be wrong and it's not the end of the world, right? It's like, yeah, because you tried and it could be great, and maybe it's not, but the fact is that there's space to try. It's an important part of culture, I think. 

David Bell: 

Absolutely. And culturally, we're a risk-taking organization. Any organization should be comfortable permitting people to experiment with ideas, spend time, spend money, and make mistakes. And what we do is try to make our mistakes original and not repetitive, but only through those iterative processes of trying, failing, trying again, improving do we come out with some of the great ideas. 

Almost none of the cool things that we have going on at ALPS right now were top-down edicts. They were bottom-up, organically drawn ideas that started out with experiments. They were in the company of a bunch that ended up in the dustbin, but the good ones emerge. And that's I think how an organization thrives and I'm really proud to just be a part of that kind of ecosystem. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. So let's shift our focus and talk about some of those cool things that are happening at ALPS. So what are some of the initiatives that are going on that you are excited about personally for the next upcoming year or two? 

David Bell: 

Sure. Well, we've transitioned our positioning. It's less of a transition of what we do and more of a transition of how we are intentionally portraying ourselves to our customer base. Traditionally, ALPS has been known as the largest direct lawyers malpractice carrier in the country. And we were and are and will remain that. But what we also are is the largest retail broker for solo practitioners and one of the largest retail brokers for law firms in general in the country. 

And that makes us a more holistic solution provider, both to place the lawyers malpractice policy many times very often with ALPS, sometimes for various reasons not with ALPS, but we have the capacity to place it with whatever carrier is the best fit for whatever reason, even if that's not ALPS. 

And then there are also a lot of other coverages that law firms need, some of which they currently buy and are increasingly interested in buying through us, workers' compensation, general liability, non-owned auto, BOPs, business insurance policies. And so those are all coverage lines that we can help place for them, thereby becoming the holistic solution provider for all risk transfer products for a small firm. 

It can seem subtle, but it's not really how we've branded ourselves externally for the more than three decades that we have been a direct carrier. So I think that is a really exciting evolution that makes us much more of a comprehensive partner for our firms. There's a lot of things that I'm excited about, but that's one of the most important structural evolutions that are occurring right now. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. And can you just tell me a little bit about how being able to be that holistic provider is a good thing for our insureds? How is that really supporting them in running their law firms? 

David Bell: 

Sure. Well, first and foremost, there are lots of great insurance agents and brokers all around the country. The vast majority of them, they do a whole bunch of different type of industries and a whole myriad of different types of coverages. And a lot of them are jack of all trades and master of none. And that's not a bad thing because they serve a lot of different industry verticals. 

This is all we do. All we do is law firms and small ones in particular, but really firms in general. Nobody knows the needs, the challenges, what's on the horizon for law firms like ALPS does. One of the value propositions that we bring is a really deep understanding to what type of risk transfer, risk mitigation tactics and insurance policies they need. 

What we find oftentimes is as we discuss with a firm, whether it's a solo practitioner or a five or 10 person firm, when we discuss with them what type of insurance needs they should consider based on the very specific profile of where they are, how large they are, the type of coverages, type of areas of practice that they're engaging in, it's oftentimes revealed that what they have is not ideally what they should have, and it's not what their peer group is generally buying. 

And so that helps inform them to make the decision on whether or not or to what extent they want to expand it. And then we bring not just the institutional expertise of this profession, of this industry, but we bring a steadfast commitment to ease. Our mantra is easy. We want to take the unnecessary friction out of the insurance purchasing process. 

The operational process of buying an insurance policy has been largely unchanged for a hundred years, save PDF emails that might be a little bit more recent, but those are all deeply in need of evolving. And we've brought some of the most technologically sophisticated processes to our customers that helps them appreciate that we understand that time is literally money for small firms. And any hour spent working on this is one less billable hour they can spend serving their own customers. So we are committed to that approach. 

Rio Laine: 

And it sounds like we're really well-placed to support particularly solo and small firms because they obviously have limited resources, but that we're really well-placed to be able to advise them on the type of coverage they need so then they can in fact just step away and it's covered. They don't have to worry. If there's an issue, it will be dealt with. But otherwise, they can focus on running their practice. 

David Bell: 

That's right. I think one mistake that many brokers and agents make is an overgeneralization of solo practitioners. They see a solo as a solo as a solo. And we see if we've met one solo, we've met one solo. They're very different. And with those differences really necessitates different types of approaches to a certain type of insurance and different types of insurance that they should consider. 

It doesn't have to be a complicated process, but you really need a partner who understands and can simplify that for you. And that's the value that we bring, which is why we ensure so many thousands, so many tens of thousands of solos all across the country from coast to coast. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I suspect they all really appreciate that viewing them as unique individuals. I mean, I don't know, I like to say that law firms are kind of like snowflakes. They're all unique. And it's very nuanced. Their needs are all different. So yeah, I think that's a really excellent way that we're able to support them. 

David Bell: 

Absolutely. And there are profiles of solo practitioners and firms in general that inform the type of risk experiences that other firms from all around the country have had. And when you have a company like ALPS that only does law firms and focuses so steadfastly on solos, we can help a lot of firms see around the corner by sharing experiences that their contemporaries have had locally or in states far away that can help them mitigate the risk that they might have by learning from the experiences that other firms have had in other places. You can only do that if you have a pretty significant portfolio of the same type of risk that can arm us to share that information. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. Again, I feel like any leg up is a good thing for a solo. Absolutely. Okay, we've talked about some of the exciting things that have been going on or shift to being more of an agency model. Let's switch it up and talk about some of the challenges that maybe we've had in the past year or so. 

David Bell: 

Sure. I'd say for us, the biggest challenge that we have is a byproduct of the biggest opportunity that we have. We are America's solo solution. We are America's solo insurance company. There is a other edge of the sword for an insurance company as it relates to solo practitioners, and it's really as follows. If you go to medical school, you're probably going to be a doctor. 

And when you end that lengthy expensive experience, you're probably going to employ, probably, that medical degree to become a physician, and that will be your profession for your career. A law degree is much more versatile. It's highly portable into areas that are very different from the private practice of law. And so what we find, and this is particularly true in the solo practitioner community, nowhere else more true than the solo practitioner community, is what we label the leading private practice. 

People who are solos and for one reason or another elect to no longer be a private practice solo practitioner. They join a school board. We have lots of our policyholders become judges, interestingly enough. There's a lot of different places that they go. None of them are bad. But for the broader insurance index, you can lose a piece of business because they retire or because a competitor has taken them. Just to put some data behind it, at least on a historical basis, our loss business for a policyholder having left private practice is two and a half times the rate of retirements. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, wow! 

David Bell: 

Now, that has started to compress a little bit over the past year or two as the baby boomer generation moves further and further along. But the transient nature of solo practitioners is a significant operational challenge because these policies are low premium, and so they're very operationally intensive. 

And our need to bring ease to the customer experience also is a need for us to bring operational efficiency into the approaches. So that is a significant challenge. We spent a lot of time, we spent a lot of money, we built a lot of technology to try to wrestle with that dynamic in this profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes, absolutely. That's a really interesting challenge because it seems like it's made up of a lot of different factors too that influence that and how much of a challenge it can be. 

David Bell: 

That's right. Being a solo practitioner is hard, and it's not for everyone. And it's not uncommon for folks to go into the profession and then go out. But what we can also do in having journeyed with so many different solos through that experience, we can help share best practices that will better empower a solo to be successful and to take some of the challenge and risk out of that experience. And if we can help tamp down the transient nature of people leaving the profession even just a little bit, then it's a win for us. 

Rio Laine: 

Well, absolutely. And if anything, it's also a win for not just the legal profession, but consumers, people needing legal services, because there is a major gap in access to justice and a lot of that has to do with people leaving private practice in rural communities, et cetera. So yeah, I do agree with you. I mean, being able to provide that kind of support, particularly to a solo who we know tend to be quite isolated, they tend to feel quite alone in their struggles and their challenges, I think that's a win for everybody really it seems like. 

David Bell: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

So we've reflected on the past five years, we've talked about this year what our challenges were, what some of the things we're excited about. So is there anything else in this coming year that you are particularly looking forward to that you feel is going to be an interesting challenge for us to navigate? Tell me what your thoughts are for the next couple of years where you see things going, where you'd like them to go even. 

David Bell: 

Sure. Well, we have grown the business doing what we've done historically, but doing it better and better each year. It's really been satisfying to be a part of a team as you're refining your skill and you're trying to be better. And in the process of being better, you're becoming more successful. And being more successful, at least as I measure it, is in the terms of the role that I have in the organization and the success measurement for the organization overall. 

There are external metrics for that. I mean, we have new endorsements that have come online that are exciting. Because when an endorsement comes, then those endorsements are leveraged for success in the future, whether it's the Federal Bar endorsement, whether it's GIRL ATTORNEY, a 37,000 strong network of female legal practitioners, and those aren't the only ones. 

Those are just recent endorsements to add to the repertoire of so many state and regional endorsements that we enjoy from state bars all over the country, regional bars, affiliate bars. So I think those create an exciting environment. And they also double down on external validation of the ALPS value proposition because bars that endorse us generally don't unendorse us. 

And they aren't endorsing us for the money, they're endorsing us for the partnership and because we're mutually aligned. Also, one of the external validations that I think is so critical is our Trustpilot reviews. Trustpilot as a disinterested third party that sends a survey inquiring about the experience and is trusted nationwide and not just in this industry, in certainly all industries. And we have at this point, thousands of Trustpilot reviews. 

And one of the favorite parts of my job is to see the... It's not just the rating. So many of our policyholders take the time to specifically comment, call out the name of their account manager or their business development representative, and reflect on how easy they made this experience and how refreshing it is, particularly for our new customers to have moved from the experience that they had been having into the ease of the experience and the knowledge and the experience that they're having with us. 

That's great. The other side is internal validation because we serve customers, prospects, and we especially serve policyholders, but we also serve employees because we are an employer. In 2024, we won again a statewide employer of choice, Employer of the Year Award, that is not industry specific. It's across all line. We've won those from an industry perspective nationally. 

We've won them from a local community perspective, and now we've won it from a state process. Again, those are done through anonymous surveys of staff. They do really provide a pretty accurate metric of how your staff feels and how they feel valued and how much they trust and enjoy the experience that they have working for the company. I think that's validating and it helps prepare us to launch into the success for 2025 as well. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like it must feel good for you to see that feedback and know that you're on the right track because employees are happy and coming up with good solutions for customers. I feel like that would be a good thing to see. 

David Bell: 

Absolutely. I mean, culture building, culture maintenance is beyond just ensuring the financial health of the organization, and that we have the financial strength to fulfill the promises that we're making. I mean, that's one of certainly my core responsibilities, but a very... I don't know if I call it close second. It's probably an even because you can't do any of that well unless you have a vibrant, healthy culture. 

People ask about corporate culture. It's almost kind of a cliche at this point because it's bantered about so much. And I say to a lot of people, you can have statements about the ethos or the company cultures, values, and those are great, and we have those. And it's important to have them, and it's important to constantly remind yourself and others what they are, but they can lull you into a false sense of security if they're not being practiced. 

Rio Laine: 

Absolutely. 

David Bell: 

And so what I tell folks is, if you want to really get a sense of the company culture at ALPS, just walk around the office, observe how people are engaging with one another. You can tell whether two people are talking purely business. You can tell in the inflection in their voice and their way that they're carrying themselves that there's trust between the two people. 

You can tell whether they enjoy being around one another. I think you can have a better, more successful professional experience from your employees if you create an environment where they enjoy being around the people who they work with, they trust the people who they work with, and they trust the leadership who they work for and the messages that they're hearing. 

If there's one key ingredient to how we've been as successful as we've been, it's that. Because all of the other stuff, including the financial success, flows downriver from that. That is, I think, the headwaters of our success and I think organization success in general. 

Rio Laine: 

Well said, David. I would agree with you. Well, this has been a fantastic chat. So is there anything as we wrap up that you would like to share you'd like our audience to know? Any parting words of advice you'd like to offer? 

David Bell: 

I think you asked about solos in particular, and we serve law firms of all shapes and sizes, but we are America's solo solution provider. And I think what's interesting is we really understand solos in what might broadly be called their three stages of life. The dawn of the solo. It's amazing how many calls we field from people who are in a multi-member firm and considering going out on their own or with somebody else to be a one or two person firm, and they just don't know. 

They've had an office manager who is taking care of them out practice. They have no idea what it costs. They have no idea some of the basic elements of setting up a law firm, from law practice management software to renting space. We've become very consultative to that group of folks. Because if you don't know how to be a solo, even if you've been an incredibly successful member of a multi-attorney firm, we can help do that. That's kind of like the dawn of the solo. 

And then when solo is in its prime, that's where we're providing that expertise and ease to make sure that you have not only your malpractice, but all of your other business insurance coverages in there. And then there is the twilight of a professional life, and we are seeing that more and more as the baby boomers increasingly transition towards retirement. I mean, the demographics of the legal profession is not unlike the broader labor force demographics. 

And there are a lot of people who are at and approaching retirement age and how a small firm or solo practitioner winds down their practice is really important. And so we're here for the entire life cycle of a solo practitioner, and I think that's one of the things that makes us so uniquely focused as being America's choice for solo practitioners. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Wonderful. Thanks so much, David. That was really great to sit down and chat with you and get to learn about all the great things we have going on at ALPS. And yeah, I hope that our audience enjoys the rest of their day and enjoyed our conversation. 

David Bell: 

Thank you, Rio. I appreciate the questions. I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. Look forward to another one. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes, absolutely. Me too. 

—

Transcript: 

Rio Lane: 

Hello everybody. Welcome to this installment, a mini- installment, of the ALPS in Brief Podcast. I am your host, Rio Lane, and I am here today with Angela Armstrong, who is the Executive Director of the Maine State Bar. Hello. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Hello. Good afternoon. 

Rio Lane: 

Thank you for joining us. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Thank you. 

Rio Lane: 

I'm very happy we got this chance so we're going to sit down and chat and, yeah, I'm excited to learn more about the bar and the impact that partnerships have had on it. Why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about yourself, so what's your background, how did you end up at the bar? 

Angela Armstrong: 

So I am originally from Maine. I did all my schooling there, and then I went to college in New York, at the United States Military Academy, which then after that I owed five years in the Army. That's the minimum, that's what you owe for going there. And I did that but then near the end I had my first child and my husband was also military and we wanted someone around, that we weren't both getting deployed. So I got out of the military and I got to stay home with my daughter for a year and a half, but then I decided that I needed to go back to work. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, weird, awesome. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, that's a familiar story. So I got a job at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, in the chancellor's office, and I was his special assistant, which I could like it to being like kind of his chief of staff. I did that for about four years, and then my husband got out of the military and we moved back to Maine. He's not from Maine but we moved back to Maine to raise our girls. As I was looking for a job, there was an opening at the Maine State Bar Association for the Deputy Executive Director, and the reason I had heard about that was because my dad was an attorney in Maine and he heard about it in the Bar Journal. And so, I wrote to the executive director and said I'd really like to interview for this job. And shortly thereafter, I got the job as deputy. That was back in 2004, so I'm about to celebrate my 20th year this October with the Bar Association. I became the executive director in July, just celebrated my 11-year anniversary in July of 2013, I became the executive director. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, awesome, congratulations. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, thanks. 

Rio Lane: 

So you're not a lawyer. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I am not a lawyer. 

Rio Lane: 

No, I love it. I love that when I meet executive directors who aren't lawyers by trade, I feel it brings a really unique perspective to the Bar Association. It's really interesting. 

Angela Armstrong: 

There's a lot of talk about whether you should be or shouldn't be. I think a lot of times you'll find with bar associations that are mandatory, a lot of them tend to be attorneys because of the types of things that happen in a mandatory bar. The Maine State Bar Association is a voluntary bar association, and so you're really running a business. You don't need a law degree to do that and, in fact, sometimes lawyers, they're great lawyers but they're not necessarily great business people. I have my Master's in business administration so it worked out. And I happened to do some reception work at my dad's law firm when I was in high school. I'm sure that helped me. 

Rio Lane: 

I bet it did. Yeah, that's awesome. Oh, yeah, interesting. Yeah, that is interesting and that's a really good point, it is like running a business, it is a business, yeah, especially for a voluntary bar. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Correct. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. So in addition to being voluntary, can you tell us a little bit more about the bar? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Sure. So our bar association that is voluntary is approximately 2,800 members. We've been staying steady around the 3,000 mark for several years now. This year we've seen a little bit of a decline. I think that all the different terms, silver tsunami, whatever you want to call it, aging of the bar ... 

Rio Lane: 

Silver tsunami? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Aging of the bar, has really ... I was having this discussion with Chris Neubold actually the other day and it's like we knew it was coming, we've been talking about it for years. But then, COVID kind of stretched things out because people couldn't retire, people are working longer generally. And so, I think we're finally really starting to see that. Plus, in Maine, we are a very old state. If we're not the oldest, we're right up there. And so, we have about 2,800 members. We are currently slotted for a staff of 10. I have seven on staff right now and one that's about to retire so I'm hiring for four positions. My staff is amazing and they work really hard, and they have for the last few years because we've had a lot of long-term employees, and that's really great, until they all start retiring. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes. 

Angela Armstrong: 

And then, you're stuck without having anybody and it's really hard to replace those positions. We are one of those states that has a lot of rural areas so we're part of that grouping of states that has issues getting attorneys into the legal desert ... 

Rio Lane: 

Legal desert, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

The southern half of our state, basically Portland and south. And then, up the coast is pretty well off but anything north of where I'm from, and Augusta where I live, in the Augusta area, is a lot less. There's a concentration in the Bangor area but majority of our members, at least half, are in the southern half of the state. 

Rio Lane: 

Wow, got it. Is that one of the biggest challenges you think that the bar is going to have to navigate coming up, is that? 

Angela Armstrong: 

I think two of our biggest are the amount of retiring attorneys we're going to be having over the next several years, and the rural attorneys because our lawyer referral program is struggling because we can't provide referrals to people in those areas. Now, think times have changed because we can do a lot more through Zoom and through other types of media, but sometimes you just want to be looking at your attorney in the face and talking to them. As I said, we're older. 

One of the things that might help us is we're getting a lot of folks that are coming into Maine that are already attorneys, so that may help us fill that gap a little bit, but we're not getting the younger folks staying, and if they are staying, they're still in the southern part of the state. I think those are going to be two really big issues. The other huge issue that Maine is dealing with generally is the indigent defense. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, yes. 

Angela Armstrong: 

It's mandated but we do not have the attorneys to do the work. Several years ago, we, whoever, the royal we, were telling people don't go to law school, we have too many lawyers, there's just too many of you. And you get this debt, and now we're paying for it because we do not have ... There's plenty of work, we just don't have the attorneys. 

Rio Lane: 

Don't have attorneys, yeah. That's interesting. Do you think there's any type of solution or anything that would help encourage young folks to go to law school? I know Project Rural Practice offers debt forgiveness in exchange. Is that something that you think would work or could be? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Well, I think, like a lot of states, we're not a very rich state so to speak. We have a lot of people that have homes in Maine but don't live in Maine, and the people that do live in Maine don't have a lot of money. When you live in Maine, you know that you're not going to make as much as somebody in another state doing the same job. 

Rio Lane: 

Got it, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

That being said, our legislature doesn't have a lot of money to play with you, and so we have a couple of tax incentives, but it's not for a lot of money if they go into a rural area, and it's not loan forgiveness or anything like that. We just don't have the programs in place in the legislature for that as of right now. I mean, we're struggling enough to deal with the indigent defense issue so I don't foresee that happening anytime soon. And then, as I think with a lot of folks that have these rural counties, even if you can get the attorney to go there, the spouse or the significant other doesn't want to go there because aren't jobs for them. Or if it's a single, they don't have the nightlife, they don't have the chance to meet other people their age or do things. And so, most of the time we see people that were already living in those areas go to school and then come back. 

Rio Lane: 

Okay, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

But that's not enough. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah, so absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely a pretty widely spread issue, which is, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

More and more states are facing it, I think. 

Rio Lane: 

Hopefully, someone will come up with a creative cost-effective way to help because ... 

Angela Armstrong: 

And the law school debt, it's hard, you got to go somewhere where you can make money. 

Rio Lane: 

It's incredible. Yeah, it kind of blows my mind. I mean, even law school in Canada where I live, it's considered expensive but it's nothing like America, it's a staggering amount of debt that people get saddled with. 

Angela Armstrong: 

We only have one law school in Maine. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Let's shift focus a little bit. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Okay, I know, it's too much of a downer. 

Rio Lane: 

As much as I would like to keep talking about it but I think ... 

Angela Armstrong: 

I'd love to solve all the problems. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes, if only. So yeah, I did want to shift focus and talk about, what are some of the partnerships that you have? I know that, like many bars, you have a member benefits program, you partner with different vendors and organizations. I'm curious to know what are your thoughts, I guess number one, on a member benefits program? Do you think that's something that is of value to your members? 

Angela Armstrong: 

I do. That's why we try to poll our members and ask them what is useful for them. It doesn't help us if we're providing a benefit that we think they want but they don't want. And so, for a voluntary bar association it's very important because that's what we have to offer. They don't have to belong to us. We have to show them value for their membership and we're going to show them value by providing them resources, and tools, and discounts that help them in their practice of law. And so, our relationships with, for example, ALPS or our legal research partner, Decisis. There several that are out there. Those are intended to help them with their practice of law and hopefully save them some money and some time. And we want to do the research for them. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, right, absolutely. 

Angela Armstrong: 

That's what a lot of it is, doing the research for them so that when you say, "Okay, this is what we can offer you," there's choices, but these ones we believe in, these ones we feel like we have a good partnership with. We trust this company, you can too. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I do think ... I mean, obviously I'm biased because I do partnerships as well. But I have heard from a lot of lawyers often, especially for solos and small firms, something that really is difficult for them is taking that time to vet different providers, different products, different things. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Huge. 

Rio Lane: 

It is time-consuming, and especially if you're not used to doing it, it can be difficult to even know where to begin so I think it's definitely something that is appreciated. Yeah. What kind of things do you look for in a partner? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Communication. 

Rio Lane: 

Yay. 

Angela Armstrong: 

And we have those ones that I haven't been in communication with recently and it makes me wonder what are we getting out of this? 

Rio Lane: 

Exactly, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I can't articulate to my members what they're getting if I don't have a good communication with the partner. In recent years, we've started an audit and a lot of it is, I don't even have the right contact information for them because they have turnover just like all of us. And so, if the new person that's coming in, or if they don't get a new person, doesn't contact us, we don't know. And so, sometimes you find out by accident, so communication is key. Trust. Trust that they're going to follow through with what they've promised us and our customers. And customer support, customer support of our members. I've noticed our relationship with Decisis is fairly new, we haven't had that long, and they've been so responsive. 

Now that's a lot of technology and so people are struggling. It might be that the Wi-Fi's just not working, but they are willing to talk to them. I know ALPS is the same way. I know our members can call ALPS and talk to somebody. That's huge. I mean, it's great if there's the other pieces where either the partnership provides a discount or something to the member, or if they don't do that but they offer sponsorship dollars for us to help keep our costs lower. Generally, those are always great as well because then we have money to market and do all that stuff. But when you're talking about the intangibles, that's the bigger piece I think, people feel like they're taken care of. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, yeah, which is important. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Well, that's why you belong to something. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So what has your partnership with ALPS been like? Do you feel that we can we communicate? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yes. Oh, absolutely. ALPS is really, I think, unique. I mean, obviously unique because of your actual product that you offer, your products, your service that you offer, and I have been very lucky to have the opportunity to come to the ALPS offices and see how things work and meet the people. And you know that they genuinely care. They care about providing service. They care about our members. They don't want to just take the money for the product. They don't want to just say, "We're going to give you coverage but it's about the money." It isn't, it's about the relationships and I think that's one of the hugest benefits that ALPS brings to the table, the biggest benefits, is that it's about relationships. Because, again, it falls back to what I just said, people want to feel like they're being taken care of, our members do. That's why they belong to us because they don't have to belong to us. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes. 

Angela Armstrong: 

And so, Maine has endorsed ALPS for years. I mean, it was endorsed maybe around the time I came on board so I've spent probably close to 20 years, if not 20 years, maybe a little more. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. That's a nice long partnership. 

Angela Armstrong: 

It is a nice long partnership. 

Rio Lane: 

It is, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I know we're small, we are not bringing in tons of money for ALPS or all that, but I think we have a good relationship with ALPS. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, I think so too. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, it's been really good. 

Rio Lane: 

Well, good. I'm happy to hear that because I personally think it's very important that, I mean, as a partner, regardless of your size, size doesn't matter. 

Angela Armstrong: 

No, it doesn't. I mean, there are big states and small states, all of our attorneys need assistance. 

Rio Lane: 

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I totally agree. I think at the end of the day it is so important for your members to ultimately feel that they have someone who has their back. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Correct. Which is what ALPS has always said, we want to have your back. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Which is, yeah, awesome. Well, good. Yeah. Well, good. I'm really glad that we have been a good partner for you and we will continue to be a good partner for you. 

Angela Armstrong: 

You guys have great communication too ... 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, thank you. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Great communication. 

Rio Lane: 

Thank you. Awesome. So I'm going to wrap up by, I think, just asking, is there anything that you see coming down the pipeline for the bar that you're excited about or have in the works or anything like that? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Just generally or with ALPS? 

Rio Lane: 

ALPS generally, either one. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Well, like I said, I've been doing this for 20 years now and there's a great deal of benefit for having employees that have been in places for a long time, but there's also benefit of getting some new folks in. Like I said, I'm hiring for four positions and we also, on top of that, just have a brand new membership director so I'm going to have some new ideas coming in, some new energy. That's helpful to me too because when you have been doing something for 20 years there are ups and downs. 

And so, that is buoying me and I'm very pleased to say that during this visit with ALPS I've learned about the business insurance manager now offering these other things that I think is going to help our members more and give us some opportunity to let them know that there are a lot more options out there in terms of the outside of things. That excites me because when I have something new I can take back to my members, that's great. It's more touch points, it's more information, and it's more of a benefit for them, so I'm very excited about that. 

Rio Lane: 

Awesome. Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Of course, I appreciate the opportunity. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, thank you. It was really great having you out here in Missoula as well. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I love it out here, I love it out here. 

Rio Lane: 

It is pretty fantastic. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I mean, I miss my ocean, like my ocean, but I love it. And my husband, who got to come with me, said if I didn't live in Maine I would live in Montana because he absolutely adores it out here, it's just so much fun. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, that's how I feel. If I didn't live in Canada I'd live in Missoula. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, that's great. 

Rio Lane: 

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and thank you everybody. We will be back again with probably a longer episode of In Brief next time. But, in the meantime, take care and we will catch you on the flip side. Thank you. 

—

Transcript: 

Rio Lane: 

All right. Hello everybody. We are back for another mini-installment of the ALPS in Brief podcast. I am your host, Rio Lane, and I am talking today with Mary Jane Pickens, who's the executive director of the West Virginia Bar. Hi. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Hey, how are you? 

Rio Lane: 

I'm good. How are you doing? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Wonderful. Very, very happy to be back in Montana. It's a beautiful, beautiful place. 

Rio Lane: 

Wonderful. Yes. Thank you for joining us. I'm happy you're here too. I love Missoula. It's such a lovely city. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

It is. It's fun. We went out and just took a quick walk this morning, and it's a wonderful little place. Lots of good stuff here. 

Rio Lane: 

It is. It absolutely is. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about yourself, Mary Jane. What's your background, and how did you come to the Bar Association? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Well, I've done a lot of different things. When I first became an executive director, I went to one of the ABA annual meetings, and they had us a boot camp for brand new executive directors, and you had to pick out a song. It was an icebreaker thing, and they would play your song and you were supposed to jump up and say, "That's my song." And my song was Long and Winding Road by the Beatles. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, nice. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Because I felt like I had had a rather long and winding road to get to the bar. I graduated from law school. I went to Ohio Northern University, so I did not go to law school in West Virginia. Came back to West Virginia because it's my home, and went into private practice in a small firm, kind of a little boutiquey... We mostly did bankruptcy work. And did that for about 15 years and decided I needed a change and had an opportunity to go to the Insurance Commissioner's office in the state of West Virginia. And shortly thereafter, became general counsel for the West Virginia Insurance Commissioner. And I was there for about 11 or 12 years. And then I went to a large firm, did mostly government relations and lobbying mostly around the insurance industry. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Did that for about three years. And then because I love public service, it's where my heart is, I had a chance to go back to the state and be the executive director of the West Virginia Board of Risk and Insurance Management, which provides all of the property and liability insurance for the state of West Virginia, and also simultaneously be the Deputy Cabinet Secretary for the Department of Administration, which provides all the back office-y stuff and services for the rest of government. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, wow. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

And I was able to be acting cabinet secretary during 2016 during Governor Earl Ray Tomblin's last year, and then had a chance to go to the state bar, and that's where I am now. So it's kind of a long and winding road. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. And you've been at the bar for two years? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Yes. I hit my two-year official mark on July 1. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, congratulations. Congratulations. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Thank you. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. How are you liking it? Do you find it's a lot different than what you were doing before? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

It is a lot different. It's still considered a state agency, but it's in the judicial branch. I've always been in the executive branch, so there's a lot of differences there. But it still is that public service feeling like you have constituents, you have customers, and you're there to help folks. And so that's what I love about it. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, that's fantastic. How do you find working with a board? Because I know you've got a board of folks that helps guide things. Yeah. Do you find that to be helpful, or do you find it's different than... 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Well, we had a board at the Board of Risk and Insurance Management, but they were very different. They were rather hands-off. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, okay. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

So this board is a lot more engaged, which I think is a good thing. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

We only have four quarterly meetings, but we have very, very involved officers and a very evolved executive committee. So I like it a lot. I think it's... We run the office and we do the day-to-day, but the president of the state bar speaks for the bar. So there's a little bit of separation that I enjoy, and so I feel like I have a lot of really good guidance and support and feedback from the board. I enjoyed it a lot. 

Rio Lane: 

That's fantastic. You find the board helpful in identifying things that the bar needs to be focusing on like new challenges that might be coming up, things that need to be anticipated? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Yeah, I do. We're on the ground, kind of on the front lines with our members, so we hear a lot and get a lot of those ideas. But our board is elected from 16 different districts all over the state. 

Rio Lane: 

Got it. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

So they come together, and so they're bringing ideas and concerns from the lawyers in their areas because West Virginia is an oddly-shaped state. It can be... When you go to the eastern panhandle, you're almost in Washington DC, and then at Ohio and Kentucky on the other side. So the interests and concerns can be different in those different parts. So the board, I think, is very good at gathering that intel and bringing it back to Charleston and helping out with what we do in the office. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. It sounds like a good working relationship. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

It is. It's very good. We have a really good board. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. So what are some of the things that maybe your members or the board has brought to your attention that are challenges that you find you're having to navigate this year and the next couple years? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Sure. We here... And I don't think this is uncommon among states. We have a lot of rural areas. We have basically a few... What we consider by West Virginia standards to be decent-sized cities. But there are a whole lot of areas that are what we would consider to be legal deserts. And I think a lot of states have the same issue. So the issues around the rural practitioner, the solo practitioner that's just out in a county where there's not that many people, we need to provide more support to those folks. 

And we have put together a rural practice committee, and we're trying to address some of those things, ideally in conjunction with the law school, because the law school at West Virginia University is there to produce lawyers for the state of West Virginia, and elsewhere, but we love it when they stay. And so we're hoping to come up with some ideas to support those lawyers more that are out there actually helping the people. Another big issue, and this is huge right now in West Virginia, and I don't know how this is in other states, but we have a desperate need for lawyers to do guardian ad litem work and abuse and neglect proceedings. 

Rio Lane: 

Okay. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

And a lot of this does come out of unfortunate circumstances around drug use and abuse and families that are really struggling. And we have a lot of children in foster care. And last year... We do regional meetings. We go all around the state in the fall, and we had judges come to all of those regional meetings and speak on pretty much whatever they wanted to talk about. Every single one of them made a desperate plea to the lawyers in the audience to consider taking on guardian ad litem work or doing abuse and neglect legal services because it's such a big need. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, wow. And is that something that is funded by the state, those services? Or is it... 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

It can be through the Public Defender Services Agency, which is an agency I'm very familiar with because it's part of the Department of Administration. So yes, there are public defender corporations around the state that they kind of have some interaction with. And also they just handle appointed work in the public defender system. So they're involved in a lot of that, but it's not enough to meet the need. And you get into these rural counties, and a lot of times the lawyers that are in those counties are the judge, the prosecutor, and the public defender. They're the ones that are there, and you need some others out there. So it all kind of comes together. The challenges kind of overlap. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And do you find that you having a membership that's aging out as well? Is that also something that you're navigating? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

A little bit. We're an old state. I mean, generally speaking. Virginia's rather old, and I don't know that it's really getting any younger. So that is a concern. One of the things that... We're planning our annual meeting for 2025, and one of our speakers that we've lined up is going to talk about generational differences and the fact that law firms and lawyers who are more seasoned need to be a little bit more open-minded about younger lawyers and what their expectations are and how to meet their needs and keep them in the state of West Virginia. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Do you find that something that the bar is having to navigate too, is new members, younger lawyers coming in and navigating their expectations and how they want to engage with the bar? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

I think so, and that's something that I would like to be able to spend more time on. I don't know that we've gotten very far on that. We do have a young lawyer section, and it has its own board, and so they're kind of on the front lines of that addressing the needs of younger lawyers. But it's something that I think we do need to work on, and I think I probably need to spend more time on that. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. And it's challenging too, as technology shifts, trends shift, needs shift, etc. I mean, I think we could all safely say that upcoming generations do not engage in the same way that past older generations do. I mean, even for myself, I grew up with... I didn't have a computer until I think I was in my 20s. So yeah, it's definitely a new challenge I think that I'm hearing quite a bit about, actually, is how to navigate that. Yeah. What's your membership size? How many... 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

We have probably, if you counted every single type of member, we would have probably between 8,000 and 9,000, which sounds like a lot. Active in-state lawyers is probably closer to 44, 4,500. 

Rio Lane: 

Got it. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

So we have inactives, active, not practicing. There's all kinds of different membership statuses. But the actual lawyers that are on the ground in the state of West Virginia licensed and practicing is about 4,400 probably. 

Rio Lane: 

Got it. Got it. Okay. And do you know how many of those are older, how many skew younger, and what that break down is? It's okay- 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

No, not off the top of my head, although there is a lot of interest in that kind of data, and our IT director has put that type of information together for our Supreme Court and others who have asked for it. So I think it's safe to say, even without having the numbers in front of me, that it's an older group. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. I want to shift a little bit, talk about partnerships. And so the bar obviously has partnerships with different kinds of organizations, sometimes vendors, sometimes different groups. What are some of the things you look for in a partner that wants to work with the bar? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

I think the most important... The thing that makes the relationship, I think, the most valuable and work the best is having a really good understanding of what each other do, or each other does, I guess. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Do, does. Yeah. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

And I think just using ALPS as an example, I mean, it's purely kind of by accident, but it's fortunate that I do have the insurance background. It helps a lot because I think I understand certainly the regulatory environment and what an insurance company has to do and the things that they focus on and things. And risk management. At BRIM, we were the risk manager for the state of West Virginia, so I have that mindset, so I think that helps. I think it also helps for your partner to have a good understanding of what you do as a bar, not just selling a product to your members, but understanding, again, what your challenges are, what your members need, what their expectations are. I think it's really helpful to have a partnership with an entity that understands what we do. Strategically, what our goals are, what our mission is, that sort of thing. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, absolutely. I think that kind of helps too when it comes to helping then support your members, and able to provide content or information where maybe there's gaps or that you need a little boost in. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I always like to think about partnership as a much more dynamic... Just much more beyond, well, tell them that we're great and we'll sell to them. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Right. Right. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, it's definitely a team effort, and it's important that values and ideas align. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

It sure is. And actually just last week, I got a call from a lawyer in Raleigh County, West Virginia, and he was an older gentleman, and he was closing up his practice. And so he was just looking around for guidance on, what do I do? And the state bar is an agency under our Supreme Court of Appeals, the Office of Disciplinary Counsel is there and the Board of Law Examiners also. We're separate agencies, but all combined, regulate the practice of law on behalf of the Supreme Court. So I said, "Well, why don't you call ODC, the Office of Disciplinary counsel? I'm sure they've got some guidance. I know they've got some information on succession planning on their website," but I didn't have at my fingertips specific information to give him. So I reached out to Mark Bassingthwaighte. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

He very kindly, and less than 24 hours later, sent me some checklists and a client letter sample and that sort of thing. So I was able to very quickly turn that around and send it to our member in Raleigh County, which I think was probably very helpful. I think it was exactly what he's looking for. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that Mark was able to help with that. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's great. 

Rio Lane: 

He is. He's fantastic. Yeah, he's an incredible resource. I think we're all very lucky to have him. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Yeah. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. So would it be safe to say that your experience with ALPS as a partner has been a positive one? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Oh, it sure has. ALPS helps support our regional meetings, which are very important to us. That's our chance to actually get out of Charleston and go to these places and meet these lawyers where they are. Those are really important to us, and I think our membership really enjoys that, and ALPS helps us in that area. Chris Newbold was able to help us with our strategic planning session last fall, and we were real happy how that turned out because it's doable. I mean, we ended up with a one page, which we loved, because the one before was several pages, and it was very colorful and it had graphs and it had arrows, and it was great looking. But we ended up with something short that really, really, really focused on the things that were achievable over a reasonable period of time, and that we enjoyed that experience. So it's just all kinds of things like that as part of the whole partnership that we've enjoyed. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Oh, I'm really happy to hear that. It's very important to me that a partnership is a good working relationship, and then we're both supporting each other in success because it's not a zero-sum game. It's like, yeah, support the members, support the profession, support each other. Yeah, that's good. So I'm really glad to hear that we're doing that. Yeah. That's fantastic. So I think we've got just a couple more minutes, but I wanted to ask you, what are some, not necessarily challenges, but things that you see kind of coming up on the horizon that you predict maybe the bar or the profession has to... Will have to navigate? 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Well, one of the things that is kind of swirling around out there, we're a mandatory bar. 

Rio Lane: 

Right, yes. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

So we're not a voluntary bar. We're mandatory. You have got to be a member of the West Virginia State Bar to practice law in West Virginia. So there are the issues around mandatory bars that you all are probably familiar with. And we try very, very hard to stay on the right side of that line where what we do is germane to the regulatory job of what we do. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

But I think that there's a constant pull because we also want to do charitable events, and we want to support all of our members regardless of their backgrounds and where they come from. And some of those areas can get a little... Have been blurry in other jurisdictions and have resulted in some lawsuits and things. So I think that's a challenge for us is a mandatory bar. And we're always watching out for that because we want to serve our members and do what we're supposed to do, but we also want to make sure that we're on the right side of that doing what we're supposed to do line. So I mean, that's one of them. Some of the others, I think we've kind of mentioned the generational stuff. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that either. There's been numerous instances the last few years when a mandatory bar has run afoul of certain things and was deunified, so yeah. Yeah. And that's definitely a challenge, but yeah. Okay. Well, awesome. I think that's really all we got, all we have to chat about, and I really appreciate you coming and just chatting with me, and hearing about the bar and about the partnership and everything. Yeah. So thank you so much. 

Mary Jane Pickens: 

Oh, I appreciate it. This was a great opportunity. Thank you so much for asking me. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Happy to have you. And at some point, folks, I will be back with another little mini episode of In Brief. But in the meantime, enjoy your day. 

—

Transcript:

Rio Laine: 

All right. Hello, everybody. This is Rio Laine here, coming to you from ALPS for this installment of kind of a mini In Brief episode that we are doing. And so I am here today with Bob Paolini from the Vermont Bar Association. Hello, Bob. Thanks for joining us. 

Bob Paolini: 

Good morning, Rio. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, it's great to have you here. So you are the executive director of the Vermont Bar Association? 

Bob Paolini: 

I am, 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Want to tell me a little bit about your background and how you ended up at the bar? 

Bob Paolini: 

Sure. Well, I'm a lawyer. I practiced in Vermont. I was admitted to the bar in 1973. 

Rio Laine: 

Wow. Yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

I became executive director of the bar in February of 1996. 

Rio Laine: 

Wow. Yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

So I've been in practice for 22 years. During that time, I served in the Vermont House of Representatives for a couple of terms, and then left that position, just went back to practice. And then I saw that this position of ED of the Vermont Bar opened up, and one of the pieces of the qualifications that they were looking for was policymaking work, and I really enjoyed the legislative process when I was a member of the House. It's a part-time legislature. It's really hard to integrate that service with the practice of law at the same time. So I ended up not running for reelection after a couple of terms. 

When this position opened up and there was the opportunity to go back into the legislature representing the profession, I applied and I was hired, and I served in that job for 20 years. I left in the spring ... I think it was June of 2016. My successor, who I think you know, Teri Corsones, became executive director. At the beginning she didn't have any legislative experience and I worked part-time with the bar, doing some of that work during our session and helping her get acclimated to that kind of work. And then I stopped doing that. 

And then six years later, she left to become Vermont State Court Administrator, so I was asked to come back on an interim basis two years ago this month actually. And after about five months in that position, the board asked me to stay on, which I was happy to do. So, 20 years, six years away, now two years back. That's how I got here. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. So 22 years kind of in total. Yeah. You obviously really enjoy the bar and working with the bar. What's something that you really like about your work and the Bar Association in general? 

Bob Paolini: 

We are a small bar, as you know. Maybe we have about 2,300 members of our association. Even though I've had a six-year break, I still know most of those people. Sure, there are a lot of new young lawyers, a lot of lawyers who have moved into Vermont that I don't know, but it's a small group. It's a close-knit group. The staff of six people, half of whom I've hired, half I did not hire, are great. I love working with them. And I really like our board of managers, who really has the welfare of our members at heart. They're really looking to help members improve their practices, improve their lives, and it's just great to work for them and try to represent them. 

One of the questions that I was asked in my first interview going back to 1996 was, "Taking this administrative job is going to be so different than practicing law. How do you feel about that?" And I said, "It's not all that different. I mean, yeah, I've got clients now, but now I will have just one client, and that's our profession." And that's worked out for me, and I think for them too. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it, too. I was wondering about the board, and would you say that it's really important to have a board that is invested in the welfare of your members? Would you say that that is a requirement to running things well? 

Bob Paolini: 

That's a requirement, yes. Yeah, it is. We need the direction. In our case, we have 17 voices, all of whom are in different types of practice. One of whom is a judge, by the way, because we always have a judge on the board, but they all have different perspectives on what the legal profession is about today. 

We meet 11 times a year, and I try to get up to date on, "What are you folks seeing? What should we be addressing? What challenges are new?" So as long as we're all dedicated to helping our members and helping protect the profession, as well as helping to protect the public, I think we're doing the right thing. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. What kinds of things are you hearing from the board or even members about challenges that are coming up that they're having to navigate? 

Bob Paolini: 

Well, clearly in this current climate, the rule of law is a challenge that we all have to address I think. Respect for the law, respect for the court system is something that I think every state bar needs to address. 

In Vermont's case, as I said, we're a small bar, but we are a graying bar. Vermont's surrounded by cities like Boston and New York, not literally surrounded, but we're close to those cities, Hartford, Connecticut, Boston, New York City, places where there are greater opportunities for newly minted lawyers. Asking them to come to Vermont, especially if they have a bunch of education debt, is difficult. So the number of new lawyers we have is diminishing. As the bar ages, we lose to retirement every year a handful or more than a handful of lawyers. 

So the shrinking bar is a real challenge I think for us. Actually this morning I engaged in a conversation with our board about the small number of lawyers who were applying for an open judgeship in Vermont, and everybody's concerned about that. There's an email chain going back and forth for the last two hours about what are we going to do about this? How do we get qualified people to be judges? So here's another topic for our board meeting next Friday. 

Rio Laine: 

Right, absolutely. And it seems that the graying bar situation, I mean, it's something that a lot of the bars are dealing with now. There certainly seems to be a larger number of lawyers transitioning out of practice, retiring, than there is coming in to the profession, absolutely. 

Bob Paolini: 

Yeah. I don't think Vermont's unique in that respect at all. There's technology challenges, where things went to online filing and different things. That drove some of the older members into retirement. I remember when that started and I would get phone calls or emails from our members saying, "I can't learn this whole new system now. I'm done. December 31st I'm retiring." 

So yeah, there's that, there's the pandemic, and how many people that drove out of the profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, 100%. Because I mean, never mind even the technology adoption required for the pandemic, but also just navigating the entire situation. It's a lot. And if you've been practicing for a long time, it's just easier probably to call it in. 

Bob Paolini: 

I know. As opposed to relearn everything and start over. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Would you say that that's similar to the difficulty getting lawyers to practice in rural areas as well, along the same lines, it's just difficult finding people to fill those gaps? 

Bob Paolini: 

We are definitely seeing that in some of our more remote places in our state. Our state's not big, but there are counties that are not big, but they only have one or two lawyers. And we know and we try to say to new lawyers, "Look, if you want to make the sacrifice and go there, you're going to be it. You're going to be that town's lawyer." It's sort of like thinking back 50 years or more, the local town lawyer, there are towns that that local town lawyer has passed away or has retired, and there's nobody there to take over. 

So yeah, we're trying to match those new lawyers with the senior lawyers, I have them spend some time together, and then one retires and one takes over that. But it's a challenge, again, because of college and law school debt, and the fact that salaries are not that high in those rural communities. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. And for the new members that you do have coming in, are you finding that they're looking for more from the bar than maybe the members that are aging out, they're looking for different types of engagement? Are you finding you're having to adapt or navigate that? 

Bob Paolini: 

They are definitely looking for something different. And I have to give credit to our Young Lawyers Division because they're great about reaching out, not only to newly minted lawyers, but to law students. And we have one law school in the state, so working with that law school and trying to integrate those folks into the bar. 

Yes, their needs now are very different than what I experienced when I started. There was that whole process back then. There's one judge, now retired, who used to say that when he started his first year was carrying the briefcase for his partner. Going to court, just sitting there, but doing that for a year or whatever. That doesn't happen anymore. People don't have the resources to do that like they used to. So there's part of that education, that apprenticeship thing if you want, that's now missing. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. Got it. That kind of mentorship piece. Yeah. And I've heard that that is a challenge for young lawyers, and I mean, you're getting into this new profession, it really helps to have some guidance and having to go without makes things much more difficult than they need to be. 

Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely lots of things that are needing to be rethought and navigated, but that's always the way it is. There's always going to be something that is a challenge, and then we have to figure it out together, so yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

Which makes this position so much fun to be in. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes, yes. 

Bob Paolini: 

You got to meet those challenges, there are new things every day. Really, there are new things every day. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Do you like solving problems? 

Bob Paolini: 

I do like solving problems. Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. I think that's a really good way to think about it too, is rising to those challenges every day. And it makes you really a good person to be leading the bar then, because members will need to know that they have somebody who has their interests at heart and wants to help them navigate those things. 

Bob Paolini: 

Right. right. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. I also love a job that's different every day too. Yeah, it's fantastic. S 

I want to shift a little bit and talk a little bit about partnerships. Now, I know that the Vermont Bar has partnerships with different vendors, different groups and organizations, kind of like ALPS, for example. How do those partnerships impact the bar or your memberships? Do you feel like they support the Bar Association? 

Bob Paolini: 

Well, let's talk about ALPS first. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, okay. Yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

ALPS has been a great partner, and I think our most important partner since I started working at the bar 28 ... 6 years, whatever it is, 1996. Since 28 years ago. 

This company has always reached out to the Vermont Bar Association and offered help, offered education, offered support. And frankly, even now, if I'm faced with an issue or a question, I call somebody at ALPS and say, "Have you seen this anywhere else? How did that state deal with it? Are there resources there that I can steal from there to help us deal with it?" Yeah, it's been excellent. 

Rio Laine: 

That's wonderful. 

Bob Paolini: 

It's been an excellent rapport with this company. 

Rio Laine: 

Wonderful. Oh, that's really fantastic. And obviously we want that to continue because it's important to us that we're able to support you. 

Bob Paolini: 

We have working relationships with other associations. I mean, I work closely in Vermont with the Vermont Bankers Association, with the Vermont Realtors Association, with the Teachers Union, in terms of public education and some of the legislative stuff that we need to do that we need support from these other groups that are affected. So we have lots of different partnerships, but the relationship with ALPS is different because they support educating the profession, protecting the profession, and making sure that we have what we need to have in order to not make mistakes. 

Rio Laine: 

Right, right. Yes. Oh, wonderful. I love to hear that. I guess in a general sense, what types of things do you look for in other partners, other strategic or vendor partners? Is it a willingness to offer that support, to collaborate? 

Bob Paolini: 

Yeah, it's one thing to endorse a business or a service and tell our members, "Yeah, we've endorsed them. Go contact them." The difference between just doing that and working with a partner such as ALPS, is that we do more than that, and ALPS does more than that. ALPS comes to Vermont and runs classes for us. They provide us information that we probably wouldn't otherwise have. They've helped us with our new lawyers. 

We run an incubator program where we bring in lawyers who really want to go out on their own, sometimes right out of law school. And ALPS has a program that helps them get their first-year insurance. And we actually have this incubator program where we meet with these folks in terms of staff conversations once a week for an hour, an hour and a half. And ALPS has appeared remotely at those meetings and answered questions about insurance, and letters of engagement, and just lots of little helpful hints. 

Yeah, I think we can't do that on our own. We don't have that expertise. We're a small group of seven employees at our office. But yeah, ALPS really has filled in with the needs that we really probably couldn't meet us in any other way. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, that's fantastic. That makes me really happy to hear that. And no pressure because we're at the ALPS office or anything, but oh, that's fantastic. Oh, well, yeah. I'm really, really happy to hear that. 

I guess we'll have just a couple more minutes and we'll wrap things up, but what do you see on the horizon for the bar? What are you looking forward to? What's coming down the pipeline? What do you anticipate? Anything really. 

Bob Paolini: 

Oh, I think we need to look ... I'm not going to be doing this forever. 

Rio Laine: 

What? 

Bob Paolini: 

I'm not. 

Rio Laine: 

I don't know. 

Bob Paolini: 

So I think we need to ... Let me start over. We have a staff of seven and four of us have been there for 15 years or more. So I think internally we need to prepare for some changes. Not only my position, but my associate executive director's position, a legal services coordinator, and another staff member who does our CLEs, who you know, Laura 

Rio Laine: 

Laura? Laura, yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

Laura, yes. There's a lot of us there that are in sort of almost retirement mode. Of course, I came back from retirement, as I like to say, the board unretired me two years ago. But yeah, I think we need to, and we already have started to prepare succession plans and transition plans. 

Yeah, so that's going to be just an internal challenge to our staffing, and it doesn't really affect the profession. It's going to involve the board more in terms of a little bit of management as opposed to just setting policy. They're going to be faced with the challenges of making certain decisions, maybe restructuring, maybe not, but certainly having to hire my successor and then he or she needs to overlap with these other folks who are looking towards retirement. Yeah, so I think we've got some challenges internally. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. A little bit of organizational change. Yeah. Yeah. And that's definitely the way it goes, right? 

Bob Paolini: 

Exactly. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. If you're not changing, you're not evolving. 

Bob Paolini: 

[inaudible 00:18:57]. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Bob. Thanks for taking the time to sit down and chat with me. Really appreciate getting to [inaudible 00:19:05]. 

Bob Paolini: 

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here again. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. Well, we're so excited to have you, and we are going to be enjoying our Bar Leaders Retreat the next few days. So yeah, looking forward to get to chat with you more. 

Bob Paolini: 

I'm sure you will. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah. Great. 

Bob Paolini: 

Yeah, me too. Thank you. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, thank you so much. All right, everybody that wraps it up for today. You will hear from me later more. 

—

Transcript: 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager here at ALPS, and welcome to ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful Downtown Missoula, Montana. As many of you know, I have been in Florida now for a number of years, but I'm back at the home office here, and we have a special event every two years where we bring in a lot of our bar associates from various bar associations around the country. Then we have some special speakers that come in and talk about all kinds of things. 

I have just finished attending a presentation given by Jeff Brandt, who is a professor here at the university and does a course on the history of music. I got to say, in all honesty, folks, I wish you could all have been here. This was one of the most fun, creative presentations I've seen in a long, long time. Jeff, it's a pleasure to have you here. Before we get started, can I ask you to take just a little bit of time and tell us about who you are? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Okay, so I was born in Sitka, Alaska, which is a tiny, well, it's a big island actually, but a tiny town on a big island in Southeast Alaska. Average rainfall there is about 96 inches per year, so it's a Pacific Coast rainforest. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I went to college in Tacoma, Washington at Pacific Lutheran University. Taught private percussion lessons after that for about 20 years. Somewhere in the middle or somewhere in there, I got my graduate teaching degree. Then we ended up in Missoula, Montana as a result. Then by happenstance, the History of Rock & Roll as a course fell into my lap. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

That was an established course before you got here? 

Jeff Brandt: 

It was. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Yeah. There were a lot of people that have taught it prior to me, but when I was given the opportunity to run with it, it was one of the first online courses developed at the University of Montana, and that's really when I dug in because I knew that teaching it in an online setting, I was going to have to be more aware of the points I was trying to get across and how they were delivered. I dug deeper and deeper into the historical aspect of the course, and then I just started creating these different slide programs. Now I'm on my third set of slides and I think it's my final because they're so good now I don't want to mess with them, but that's my brief history. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I didn't realize this is online. Could anybody get online and just take this course? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Anybody can take it online. I'll give my spiel about online education, to be honest here, is I think online education is good if you have time to do it. I think in-person education, generally speaking, is better. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I would agree with you. 

Jeff Brandt: 

There are so many different resources now for people to learn. Just with YouTube alone, you can go down an endless pit of stuff on one member of one obscure band, it seems. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Yeah. Mine is one of the many resources out there. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You're welcome to share. Folks, I'm telling you, if you have any interest at all in the history of rock and roll and want to have some awesome fun, this is a course I would encourage you to take and see. I didn't realize. How might folks find this? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Well, you go to the University of Montana. I believe you have to register as a student. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

You think that I would know all the hoops you have you have to jump through. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

No, that's fine. 

Jeff Brandt: 

You have to jump through several hoops and then you can take online classes. I do encourage people who are not working 40 hours a week and who are interested in really digging in, to take it in-person because there's so much more interaction with the way the clips are played and the way the slides are presented. Get on the University of Montana website and search it, and you can join the online course or the face-to-face. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You clearly have a passion. It just seems like listening to you, you're having just a ton of fun too, and I love that. Folks, I can also share this course is I think the number one or the number two top. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It's one or two or three. It depends on the year. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Why do you do this? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Well, honestly, the first time it fell in my lap. I was just kind of given the opportunity to sub for somebody and subbing for somebody in a college course is, it's a lot to take on because you jump into it usually with all of their materials because that's usually the unwritten rule is, "I'll let you use my stuff." I mean, back then, I mean, it makes me sound like a dinosaur, but the person that gave me the stuff had overheads, and so I was using overhead. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Wow. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Maybe it was a year later that I was using slides, but they gave me their overheads. I jump in, I'm starting to do this, and honestly, I was scared because I guess when you're, I can speak as a male when you're 23, 24, 25, you think you know a lot of stuff. I just cracked open the first of two textbooks that this prof was using, and I was like, "Oh, boy, do I know nothing and I'm teaching it in three weeks." 

Then fast-forward, I end up digging in reading resources, listening to a lot of albums. I'll be honest with you, I hadn't really dug into the Beatles that much prior because there were so many other acts that I was interested in. Then I started listening to their catalog and the Rolling Stones, and again, that's a tiny scratch on the surface that doesn't include the other British bands like The Animals and The Who and Led Zeppelin and then John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers and all these other in-depth things you can go in. That's just the British blues scene. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

What I realized was in order to make this work and why I continued to want to do it, is what I would need to do is have what I would call kind of a surfacey understanding of about 300 to 400 acts in the entertainment business. Gradually bit by bit, the department would buy my recordings. I would go and dig in and listen to everything from Blind Lemon Jefferson to the Spice Girls. I would just year-by-year chip away. When you get into a subject like counted cross-stitch or skiing or building doors, you get better at it and you realize ways to enjoy it more. 

I got to a point where I created my final, what I call my final set of slides, and I really, really carefully planned out the layout of the slides, how the format of the class was going to move and how I was going to justify only featuring certain artists as opposed to leaving out bands, like the one I always pick on is AC/DC because they're not really a part of the course. That's why I do it and why I like to do it, because it's like anything else where you get into it, then you kind of become addicted once you have a little taste. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Year after year, how do I want to say this? Let me do it this way. What do you hope students get out of your class? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Well, there are these objectives that we write in the syllabus that you're supposed to abide by, et cetera, et cetera, and I do, but what I really want people to get out of the course is I want them to understand a general approach, or I guess have a general understanding of the social history that rock and roll highlights in America. That's one thing. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I want them to understand that rock and roll is not white, it's not Elvis Presley, it's not AC/DC, it's not, even though I love them, it's not Metallica. It is something that came about quite by accident and through a lot of pain. That part is kind of an inconvenient truth that some students don't like. I have to warn people in the beginning, "I'm not going to sugar coat this, I'm going to bring it directly to you. Some of the things are inconvenient truths that you may not have faced prior. Depending on how invested you are in learning as a person, it may buck your understanding of how this thing has worked." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Just for example, the inconvenient truth, like I was mentioning today that Elvis Presley is a cover artist. Bill Haley is a cover artist. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Mm-hmm. 

Jeff Brandt: 

They're not original rock and roll artists. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

The original rock and roll artists are people like Chuck Berry and Little Richard and Bo Diddley and all of the artists on Chess Records. Those are the original rock and roll artists, but because of the unfortunate existence of so much racism in our country, a lot of those people were shoved aside because it was easier to market people with light skin. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

So interesting. 

Jeff Brandt: 

That's another thing I wanted to go with and maybe if I'm going to highlight a third thing I want them to go away with, is an understanding that you can listen to more than one subgenre within rock and roll. You get people that are "metalheads" and people that are into techno pop or house or people that seventies rock, or here's another category I have, people that love the sixties. They have blinders on. If it's between '64 and '69, it's in, and if it's '70 and on, it's out. The understanding that if you listen to pick your artist, like name a person, let's just pick like Katy Perry. If you listen to Katy Perry and you put hours into it, you will grow to like that artist. If you listen to Destiny's Child, you will grow, if you listen to Frank Zappa, you will grow to like it. I want express in that third point that it takes time to do that, and it's an investment and it's a willing investment. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It's very interesting. I appreciate what you're sharing, and again, after hearing what you had to say here just a few moments ago, it has changed how I look at certain things. What I liked about it, it helps understand the culture, understand music in general, where it comes from. I mean, I have a greater sensitivity. Yeah, I just thought it was very good. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Well, it's almost like one thing along those lines, it's almost like with Louis Armstrong. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Louis Armstrong was this one of several trumpet or cornet players as they were originally, in the early jazz era that was a soloist and gained a following from the general public, the general population in the United States. Now, Louis was seen as a performer on stage, but at the same time, he couldn't stay in the same hotels, he couldn't eat in the same restaurants. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

He could walk on stage in a club, but not eat at the restaurant in the club. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

He would've to be fed backstage and those kind of inconvenient truths to uncover that for people in a day when I think it's easy to brush that aside and highlight that he was an ambassador to the world in the 1970s. Yeah, in the seventies he was, but for the majority of his time as a performer, he was only respected as a performer, not as a human being. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Wow. I agree with you, that is a great message I think. God bless. These are important things. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I mean, I think that, and another thing that's along those lines too, it's a little bit of a stretch as a parallel, but it is a parallel, is that performers in rock and roll, many times are actors. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

If you're in a heavy metal band and you're acting all angry on stage and chugging it away on your guitar up there and singing these lyrics that are full of vitriol, that doesn't necessarily define who you were at breakfast at 10 o'clock that morning or who you are when you're off tour with your wife and kids or with your partner at the winery or whatever. That's a different thing. There are a lot of people that can't get past that. They see name your hard rock artist, "That's an evil person." That person puts on sweatpants, watches reruns of shows that we all like on Netflix, enjoys a donut every now and again, and takes a walk with dog. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

They're just real people, right? 

Jeff Brandt: 

They're real people. That part is also misunderstood about rock and roll in the same way that people can't or don't want to unveil the truth about black artists. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. Right. One of the things, we talked a little bit last night, and again, you were sharing this in your presentation, one of the things that really sort of struck me was your comments about synthesizers. I'm a guy that likes that sound, but I didn't fully appreciate its impact and the evolution and how that impacted the artists of the day. I guess I'd have to honestly say I'm still not sure where you come out on synthesizing. Is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I'd be curious, what's your thought about? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Okay. Well, I mean, I own a synthesizer. Every band I've played in has used a synthesizer. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I'm not against synthesizers. I also don't dislike house music. I don't dislike techno pop. I don't dislike the synth revolution that happened in the late, let's call it the late seventies to the early eighties where it exploded, where everybody had to have a Yamaha DX7. I don't dislike that. What I think is problematic, is the idea that this machine is everything. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I think the other part that's problematic is that, and this is going to make me sound like I'm super old because my instrument, my main instrument is drum set. People will ask me, "Well, why haven't you dug into this or this or this about the history of rock and roll?" I say, "Well, I also practice instruments and I have a passion for playing them." To me, it's not just about reading and regurgitating facts, it's about keeping up my musical skills. What happens when you get into the world of synth is to some degree, you lose the world of any sort of musical technique because the machine can do so much of it for you. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I think that the bad side of synth is highlighted like groups like Human League, because if you look at a group like Human League and they're early stuff, it sounds like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, it's very robotic and synthesized, as we should say, in the sense that everything is exactly placed on the exact moment of the exact quarter of the beat. That there is no doubt in your mind exactly where the center of the beat is. You can press a button and the synthesizer can do that. Whereas on piano, you have to go to make the same da-da-da-da-da-da, you have to go like fingers, 4, 3, 2, 1, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da over and over again to make that same key do that. To some degree, whenever electronics jump to the next level, we lose a tiny bit of our ability to perform on those instruments. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Like with synth, you lose a little bit of ability to perform on a general keyboard. With electric guitar, you lose a little bit of ability to perform on an acoustic guitar. With electric drums, you lose a little bit of ability to play an acoustic drum set. I mean, imagine if there was an electric French horn, for example. French horn is one of the most difficult instruments to play, right? 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right, of course. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Period. I mean, it's like a French horn. Missing notes on a French horn is a Monday, that's normal. You can't avoid it. Imagine if there were a way to synthesize so that it would know that your note was going to be missed by your embouchure, and it would bring the correct note out. We would lose some of the, maybe the desire to practice and get it to where we are. That's where I feel it's the bad side of synth. But in general, I'm with you. I like the sound of the synthesizer. I like the ideas you can get from the synthesizer. I even like the drum ideas that you get from a synthesizer. I think that we were talking about last night, it's like you can go too far with something, where you need to think about reining it back in. It's like alcohol. It's like collecting cars. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It's like colors of carpet in your home. At what point in time do you say enough is enough. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, my interest in this, it's my understanding again, that when this technology, as it sort of evolved and really became mainstream, there were a lot of responses. One of which was this is going to put people out of work because it was the Moody Blues, you could go and see the orchestra. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Didn't need the spring place. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It changes. I hear you can lose some skill sets because the machine is doing it for you, but it also brings about, I think, some creativity. It seems to me once the revolution happened, the music industry didn't go away, but how it works changed. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Yes. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

We're at a point where I think, and even involved where, we're having all kinds of discussions and reactions with the evolution of generative AI. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Mm-hmm. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

There are people saying, "This is going to take jobs away from all kinds of people," not just musicians with the synth, but I also can see that this could bring about some incredible creativity opportunities, allowing just the exploration of music to go far further in directions we've made never even think of right now. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Right. Right. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Could you do all sorts of things with tones, vocal tones, and I don't know. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Yes. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

What is your thought? Do you see this as a game changer? Is this much ado about nothing? 

Jeff Brandt: 

Well, first of all, I think that it's inevitable. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

You could use the Pandora's box example. Once Pandora's box is open, then it's open and you can't shut it again. Well, the synthesizer was going to be developed, I'll tell you why, is because it comes from the pipe organ. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh, really? 

Jeff Brandt: 

The pipe organ is the first synthesizer. The pipe organ has stops that create different sounds. If you study the pipe organ going way back, you look at real pipe organs, they have sounds on them where you pull stops out and make it sound like a flute and make it sound like a trumpet. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I never thought about it that way, but you're right. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It has a pedal system because pipe organ players have to read three staves. They read treble, they read bass, and then they read sub bass, as I'll call it. I honestly don't know the exact term, but another bass clef for their feet. They're basically playing, no pun intended, a synthesizer with their feet, while they're playing two synths with their hands. That's the original synth. People that think that this came about in like '64, it's been around since Bach, and guess what? It's not going away. 

I think the part about the synthesizer and change, is that it is inevitable that AI along with that new technologies will enter where new possibilities will come up. I think that the good side, is some things are a little bit easier for us to do. For example, Pro Tools is a program where you can click into the program and cut right in, and it both takes the ambient sounds from before and the ambient sounds after and blends it together so you can't tell the person was clicked in at that moment. That's amazing. That makes it simpler. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It saves money for people that own Pro, it saves time, and humans are generally speaking all about that. I mean, if there's a cherry tree here and there's a bigger cherry tree across the river and you're like, "I'm going to stay with this cherry tree right here because I don't want to cross the river." That's what we would literally call the lowest hanging fruit. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

With a synthesizer, if there is an option to make something a little bit simpler, people are going to use it. Again, there's the when is when part, when is enough enough? When is too much, too much, is what I mean. I think with AI, it's going to inevitably bring up other options that we haven't thought of, and it's inevitably going to bring about sounds or feelings or grooves or patterns that will catch people's ears that you cannot create with guitar rhythm guitar standard acoustic bass, or electric acoustic bass and drums, and we like that change. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Speaking personally, is your, I guess, conclusion or do you see the rise of AI, generative AI then, as a positive development? Are you optimistic looking forward to see what the music industry does with this? Or is it cautious optimism? 

Jeff Brandt: 

I'd say it's cautious optimism because it is true, for example, let's just go with trucks, there are trucks now that can be self-driven. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I don't necessarily think that's a good thing. First of all, I think that we can put things on trains, and I know I sound like a total socialist here, but you can put things on trains and all of those cars are "self-driven" by the one engineer up there, and it's very efficient. Trucks that are self-driven will become a problem at some point because you can hack into that. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. 

Jeff Brandt: 

You can't hack into a human's mind nearly as easy, so there's that. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I think that it's good to have the humans operating things. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

At the same time with the music business and recording, if you go back to the sixties and then the seventies, you had tons of studios that were busy hour by hour, day by day, week by week. You'd have to book into that studio six months in advance to get a four-hour space. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Now, there are studios that are completely abandoned because they've moved into people's homes because of the laptop, because of microphones like the one we're using right here, and because of the synthesizer. Is it good or is it worse? It's change. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

That's what it is. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Is it going to affect having lots and lots of people play a string track versus using a synthesizer to simply overdub things? Yes, it's going to affect that. Is it going to affect it to the point where somebody goes to a symphony orchestra or a jazz concert and they see 18 mannequins on stage holding up instruments, and all of it comes from a synthesizer? I doubt it because we like to watch artists perform. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Like with hip-hop, almost all of the time in the hip-hop genre or any sub-genre or sub-sub-genre of hip-hop, you have people that are using synthesizers to create the entire track other than the vocals. They're even manipulating the vocals using the synth. When they go on tour, now, increasingly there are people that are using instrumentalists on tour because it's more interesting to look at. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

That makes sense, yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

You don't want just two turntables and a microphone back there because that's all it is. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. Why pay all the money to go? 

Jeff Brandt: 

When you go on tour, it's convenient for artists like Mariah Carey to just take the synths and go out there, but she knows that when she can afford to hire the string players, it looks cool. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I think it's a case of are you going to see the glass as half full or half empty? It's here. It's been here since the pipe organ. It's going to stay. It's a question of when do you say enough is enough, and how do you look at it from your perspective as a musician? I guess I'd add one more thing. If you're afraid of the synthesizer, learn to use one. Right there. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I really, really appreciate and love everything that you've shared. Folks, one of the reasons I wanted to do this, as you well are aware, our profession is struggling. There's a lot of people that are very much embracing the AI evolution and a lot of others very, very concerned about will they have a job. A lot of legal staff are concerned, "Will I have a job in a couple more years?" I'm using AI myself to do a lot of writing, and it's saving me tons of time, and it elevates my game. It really does. I still am the one that policy, it's an idea generator for me. 

Getting back to this, I'm hoping that it is helpful to you who are listening, as we think about the challenges, the concerns, work through this, it's easier to hear and get some thoughts about how we should be responding or what do we do with all this, when we talk about it in the context of something else. Discussing this as it relates to music, I think is very eye-opening. I love the comment, you are absolutely right this synthesizer. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It's hard to say. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I always get tongue-twisted. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It's really tough to say. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It's been around since Bach. 

Jeff Brandt: 

It's been around since the organ. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I never really understood that. I think some similar things can be said about AI. It's been here a lot longer than we realize. Not in the same way, generative AI is certainly very, very new. I am cautiously optimistic about it. I would encourage you folks to just take a realistic look, take some opportunities, if you're threatened by it, pick up the instrument and learn it, and it can help your practice. I just think it's a positive thing overall. We got to be careful going too far. I can keep rambling on about this stuff for a long time. I have so many planes in my head up right now. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Well, there's one more thing that's worth adding. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Please, please. 

Jeff Brandt: 

There's a drummer in LA named Greg Bissonette. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. 

Jeff Brandt: 

He's a studio drummer. He went to University of North Texas. He's played with lots of different artists. Greg Bissonette has always made his living playing drums. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Now, when he first entered the studio scene in Los Angeles, as far as I know, he was going to studios and recording. You'd get your drums carted over to the studio by a carting service. You'd show up, you'd play the gig, which was a recording gig, and then you would pack your stuff up or the carting service would pack your stuff up. You'd go home and you'd be waiting for your next booked gig. Now, Greg has a microphone set up in his home. People send him a file. He listens to the file. There's maybe a click track on it, or maybe not, maybe he has to create his note. I mean, I don't know him personally, but if you need a reference for Greg Bissonette, he played all of the in-between clips on the Friends show. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh, seriously? 

Jeff Brandt: 

He's that guy and he's done a lot more than that. Understand that the convenience of somebody emailing you a file or dropping a file in a box and you download this file and then go ahead and say, "Okay, I'm going to add drums to this track," and you do it from your home studio. There are some good things about this. Number one, he's not driving a car in LA traffic to a studio, which means he gets to spend more time at home and more time with his family. That's better for the environment. Electric car or not, it's better. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Agreed. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Okay. It doesn't have the same in-person work environment that you had say in the sixties when the Fab Four or the Rolling Stones are right there together, hashing it out like, "What does this mean?" That's different. The truth of the matter is, I don't think anybody who's listening to something Greg Bissonette has recorded probably would go, "Oh, well, this obviously is something this guy did at his home studio with the downloaded file." In that way, it doesn't matter. Again, it's a choice of how do you want to do the track? Is it a jazz band? You probably need to come together and play. Is it a digital track and they want live drums on it? 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Send it, who cares? 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

Again, this idea of change is the only constant. I mean, maybe I'll be eating my own words and I'll be replaced by a robot that has all of the personality of a human being and knows every single history of rock and roll fact. Sure. Maybe that'll happen. I doubt it. People like Greg Bissonette are still out there finding a creative way to make a living simply because they went, "Oh, now I need the studio at home. Oh, now I need this technology so that the files can be sent to me. I need my microphones, everything tuned up." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

You still find a way to do it, and I think that we will. I've never bought that line about AI and knock on wood, that it's going to come together and destroy the human race. I think that's silly. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah, I do too. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I think what it's going to do is it's going to be one of those things where we just have to be careful how we use it. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

I think you could say we have to be careful. We have to be careful about how we drive Hummers. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Jeff Brandt: 

We have to be careful about not making buildings too tall. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Jeff Brandt: 

We have to be careful about not making wave machines so powerful that kids get knocked over when they're going to a wave machine at a water park to have fun. It's pretty simple stuff. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. I want to thank you for taking the time to sit down and talk. You have said so eloquently, things that I have trouble saying. I can't put it into words in the same way you do. All I can say is, folks, Jeff, the insights here, what I'm trying to get across, I hope it's self-evident now, you're summarizing all this just perfectly. That's it. I appreciate your coming. I'll let all of you get back to work. If you have any thoughts, questions, concerns on risk management, ethics, insurance, etc, remember, I'm not the Risk Manager of Alps, I'm hired by Alps to be your Risk Manager. Feel free to reach out anytime. It's MBass@Alpsinsurance.com. Good talking to you all. Take care. Bye-bye. 

—

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte. Welcome to ALPS in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the Historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And it's a smoky day out there today, but it's good to be back in the office in terms of the home office for a little while. 

And I have a guest that is... I'm very excited to share... have her share her story with you, but it's just you want to talk about a compelling, just difficult, I don't even know how to say it. I mean, I'm still swallowing what I've just heard in terms of a detailed presentation on what she's doing. So my guest is Ann Moderie... Modera. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Moderie. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Moderie. I'm so sorry, Ann. 

 Ann Moderie: 

It's okay. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Bassingthwaighte gets mixed up. Yes. So, but Ann, can you... before we jump into your story, can you just share a little bit about yourself and what you do? 

 Ann Moderie: 

Sure. And thank you for having me, Mark. I am a Montana attorney. I have been practicing for about 25 years. I have practiced out of Polson, Montana, which is on Flathead Lake for that entire time. 

I practiced with my father for 14 years, and when he became district court judge, I went out on my own, and I've been out on my own since that time. I have handled primarily civil cases, mostly litigation, over the years. I recently have inherited a lawyer's practice who passed away who did a lot of estate planning and probate. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Wow. Okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So I'm transitioning a little bit in the last couple of years, not as much litigation, but always on the plaintiff's side. I have tried to dedicate myself to helping victims, whether it's an unfortunate accident or intentional conduct, but I think there's a real need for attorneys that are willing to get in the fight. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. And you have fought an incredible battle. I just finished hearing a presentation that Ann gave that really focused on a first case. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And it's not your first, or is this your... 

 Ann Moderie: 

Oh gosh, no. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

I've been practicing since 1999. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

And this case came into our firm in 2005. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

But it's the first case of an interesting story. So, Ann, I just invite you, have at it, share what happened and what this is all about. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Well, and I will tell the story, but I think it's important to point out that I was one attorney in a team that tackled- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... this issue and these type of cases. So I don't mean to stand out as anyone that handled them by myself. But how I first became introduced to the troubled teen industry, and these are specialty boarding schools for, quote, troubled teens, and sometimes they're called tough love schools. They're a type of school that has its own behavior modification model that is kind of almost like a military-type setting. It's very rigid, very strict. And I didn't even know these schools existed. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I didn't either until today. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I mean, this is... 

 Ann Moderie: 

It's under the radar. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

But back in 2005, a case came into our office related to the suicide of a 16-year-old girl at one of these specialty boarding schools. And the school was located in Thompson Falls, Montana, which is in Sanders County, which is a nearby county. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. 

 Ann Moderie: 

These... I had no idea this was in our backyard. But the school was a boarding school, mostly for out-of-state students. They are placed there because they are struggling at home, whether it's drugs, alcohol, running away, getting in trouble. Parents would send them to this school as kind of an answer really to the struggles they're having or their concern about their children's safety. And these schools represent to the parents that they are the answer that they are going to change your kids' lives. They're going to turn them around. 

And the mother contacted us because her daughter committed suicide at this school called Spring Creek Lodge. And we didn't morally... Suicide cases are difficult, so we really wanted to get the records and study them before we agreed to take it. The mother had access to all of her school records. So the mother got them, presented them to us, and we were mortified with what we saw. The notice that the staff had of this young woman hurting herself was unbelievable. We found 152 instances over six months- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

That is just crazy. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... where there was clear intent to kill herself- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... including statements that, "I want to die." She was cutting. She was crying. She was begging for help. She was acting out physically to staff. She tried running away. She tried hanging herself from her bunk. This was a girl who was struggling, and we felt comfortable with the records that we had that we should pursue this. And these people that ran this should be held accountable. 

And it's important to understand this girl's history. She was adopted at birth. Her adopted dad died when she was just a toddler. And then it was just her and her mom against the world. They were close. They had a great... They were very connected with their lives. The mother ran a furniture store. She had her desk, and then she had a little tiny desk next to her where her daughter- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... would work with her. It's pretty neat story actually because they had each other and that's about it. And when this girl got into her teenage years, she started acting out. She started sneaking out. She wasn't involved in hard drugs, but she started experimenting with substances. The mother was very scared. 

She didn't know how to rein her in. She didn't want her to rebel more. She was scared where this could go. And I think you have to step back and look at the people who send their kids there. These schools cost anywhere from 3,500 a month to 5,000 a month. So they are parents who can afford- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. Yes. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... this kind of care for their children. And if you look at that type of family, boarding schools are not considered a bad thing. I mean, they're very actually elite. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. 

 Ann Moderie: 

If you can afford to send your child to a boarding school, my goodness, that is a wonderful opportunity. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So sending a girl to a boarding school, while some, it rubs them the wrong way, in other ways, it's not unusual for this family from their world. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So she goes to... Oh, and one more thing about Karlye is she had a learning disability. It was diagnosed. She attended a school specifically designed for people with learning issues, but she was doing real good in school. That wasn't actually a problem in the program that she was in. 

The mother went to an educational consultant with her concerns. What should she do? And it was encouraged or advised that she send her to a specialty boarding school where she could be monitored, kept safe while still addressing her learning disability. And she was referred to a New Mexico boarding school. The mother looked into it. She talked to everyone. It seemed to be a good fit. 

They had a special education program. She sent her there. And within a short period, this girl ran away and took pills. And the school said, "We are not designed for the care for someone with these concerns or issues." And they sent her home. I mean, the school did the right thing. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right, exactly. 

 Ann Moderie: 

"We're not designed." So she goes home, and the mother's frantic at this point. She doesn't know if she's going to hurt herself if she's going to sneak out and get hurt. She goes back to an educational consultant, and they refer her to what is called Teen Help. It's represented to be a nonprofit referral resource for parents whose children are exhibiting certain types of behavior. 

And Teen Help has telemarketers really, when you call in that have a script. We got the scripts that have... They say certain things to pique the parents' fear. "It sounds like you're... you need immediate help. The child, the longer you let it go, the further they're going to go away." One script we found partway through the script, it says to the telemarketer, "MAXIMIZE PROBLEMS" in all caps. They are designed, this company is designed to prey on the fears of parents. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So she listens- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It's social engineering is what I'm hearing. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Oh, yeah. It's very smart, actually. And they give her all these statistics. "Within 24 hours, this many children will commit... will try to commit suicide." I mean, they're just talking to exactly what she's fearful of. And they say, "We're a non-profit. We don't get anything by these referrals. We don't have any connection to these schools. 

But we think we have found just the school for your daughter. It's Spring Creek Lodge in Montana, and here are the pictures." It's a beautiful mountain setting. Well-maintained lodges. It looks gorgeous. They have pictures of kids boating and hiking, horseback riding. They show kids at computers. They represented that they have a special education program, 24-hour monitoring, therapy for the kids. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

This sounds like a prayer... 

 Ann Moderie: 

Oh, [inaudible 00:10:29]- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

... an answer to a prayer for a parent. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Oh, absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

It sounds... And especially a parent, we've all been there. We have kids who are struggling. I get it. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I do too. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So it sounds like a perfect fit for her. And the program, though, requires a commitment letter to be written and signed by the mother committing to this program. They also ask the parent to prepare honesty reports about the child. "Has this child ever been dishonest? Have they ever been manipulative?" Well, what teenager hasn't? 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

But they keep that in the child's file, and they tell the parent that, "It's going to be strict. They're going to want to come home. They're going to want to manipulate you but stick to the program. We have a record of success. 15,000 students... children, we have been successfully turned their life around." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

It sounds great. So the mother does everything that they ask for. She signs a contract. She's going to pay $3,500 a month. She writes a report about her daughter. She agrees to go to seminars. There are seminars that parents have to fly to and attend- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh, okay. Yes. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... that are kind of a educational this is how you be a better parent type of thing. She agrees to it all, and she sends her daughter off. And the conditions at the school are not like the pictures. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

At the time this young woman was going there, there were approximately 500 kids going to this school. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh my gosh. 

 Ann Moderie: 

There were kids sleeping on mattresses on the floor because they didn't have the room for them. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

But we later found out that this school is part of a network of worldwide schools. And some of those schools were getting closed down by government agencies and they were taking the overflow. So that's why it was overcrowded. Lice was rampant. Kids would've complained they didn't have enough food. And they told the family that, "This is a level system. You start at level one with zero points. 

And as you do good things and accomplish certain tasks, you gain points. And if you gain enough points, you go to level two through level six. And at level six, you can graduate." And average time it takes to graduate is a year that these kids are in these programs. On level one, you can't talk, you can't make eye contact, you can't look out the window, you can't talk to your parents. You are completely isolated socially because... until you get to level two. 

Well, another part of getting past level one is you have to succeed in their educational program. Their educational program turns out to be completely self-taught. There are no teachers teaching. They put a kid on a wooden box at a wooden carrel, and they give them a workbook. They have to go through the workbook and then take a quiz at the end. And if you pass that quiz, you move on to the next subject. Well, someone with a learning disability- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Exactly. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... is not... 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

They're not going to be able to do that. 

 Ann Moderie: 

No. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Of course not. Which showed right from the start, it was obvious she couldn't get past one subject. She was... And you would... there's a window above the carrels where the student sat. And if you looked out the window, you lost points. Very quickly, things dissolved. It was not good. She could not get off level one. She could not speak to her mother. 

And she already went in depressed and having some suicidal ideation. And under this point system, suicide attempts or suicide talk, you lose all your points. You're punished. They also have what they call intervention rooms, which is solitary confinement. And that is a punishment for being suicidal. They put you into solitary confinement, and you can be in there for days at a time. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It blows me away that the consequences... You have somebody who's suicidal, and then what they do is going to make her more suicidal. 

 Ann Moderie: 

And that's exactly what happened, Mark. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. [inaudible 00:14:51] gosh. 

 Ann Moderie: 

It was painfully obvious in the record. It was just snowballing. She starts cutting. She starts trying to hang herself. It was just daily. And their response was to just keep putting her in intervention. That was their response and to take points away. 

And what's most concerning too is that the mother wasn't being told about this. Her only communication came from staff. And the staff was telling her this entire time that she's being manipulative. "She's trying to work us. Don't fall for it." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

So these are the honesty statements. They have information now that they can... 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Gotcha. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Gotcha. 

 Ann Moderie: 

In fact, these honesty reports come not only up in that scenario, but if children in these schools allege abuse or mistreatment, the staff will pull out the honesty reports. And they say, "Look, even their own families say they're dishonest. How can you believe this?" 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

They're used against the kids. But at one point, Karlye's begging for therapy. And Spring Creek Lodge, interestingly, is very open to that. Come to find out, they do have a mental health facility on campus, but it's co-owned by the director of Spring Creek Lodge. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Of course, it is. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Of course, it is. So they're all over that. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yep. 

 Ann Moderie: 

They say... They contact the mother, and they say, "She's asking for therapy. We can provide it at $150 an hour. We're happy to do that." And the mother, of course, being a wonderful, loving mother, says, "Of course, I will do..." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Well, yes, you want to do the right thing. 

 Ann Moderie: 

"... I will do anything to help her. Absolutely. No, any cost." And so they set her up with therapy, and she starts going to a therapist. Come to find out later, the only degree the therapist had at that time was a high school diploma. And he was charging $150 an hour to this mother. 

And the therapy clinic did not have access to the school records, so that they didn't even know she was suicidal. She was going through therapy with this guy, and he was talking to her about her friends back home. And the loss of father, I mean, he didn't even know she was suicidal at that point- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Wow. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... when he was giving therapy. But when... Another thing that happens when children are suicidal at this school, they not only punish them, but they put them on what's called high risk, which is more supervised. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. Gotcha. 

 Ann Moderie: 

More supervision by parents. Every half hour, the staff has to actually sign something saying they've checked on her, which is a good thing. That part is good. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

That is a good thing. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

You can get off of high-risk status if a panel of seven staff members vote you off, none of whom have mental health training, none of whom have training in suicide risk assessment. So she was on and off high risk. They voted her off. I remember asking one staff member, "So why did you vote her off?" She was voted off high risk, I think, four days before she killed herself. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

And the staff member said, "Well, I saw her on campus, across campus, and she looked like she was smiling, and she looked happy." And it turns out she's legally blind. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh, my... 

 Ann Moderie: 

It just gets... 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You can't make this stuff up. 

 Ann Moderie: 

You can't make this up. I know. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It just... Oh my God. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So this is in 2004. Up to the day she kills herself, she's threatening suicide. They lose track of her for an hour. She goes into a bathroom stall, and she hangs herself. And two staff members found her, panicked, and ran. They brought other staff members back. They took her down, and she was still breathing- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

[inaudible 00:18:32]. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... but no one had CPR training. They didn't know how to help her. And she died in the helicopter on the way- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh, my gosh. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... to the hospital. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

This is a crazy story. 

 Ann Moderie: 

It's painful to hear. It's painful to tell. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So that's how we got involved in trying to hold this school and the directors accountable. But what we found in this case is that this is a small part of a major operation. There is what is called the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. It's called WWASP. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

And it's a network of schools... Well, they call them schools. They're programs across the whole world. They have them worldwide. And you start looking at how they all follow the same model, behavior modification model. All the schools have to enter into contracts with the same companies. These companies take a third of the profit off the top. So this is millions that these companies are making. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

And if you dig through all of these companies, the layers and layers of ownership, it seems to all flow down to the same group of individuals who are located in Utah and who are the founders of this network of schools. And that's who we concentrated on at the end is because that's where the money was going. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So it resulted in settlements with some of the defendants early on. It resulted in a three-week trial. It was... And that led to other cases against this same school or being... There were other schools in Montana. I think I recently heard that there's, I think, 72 schools right now in Montana of this... Not WWASP schools, but just specialty boarding schools. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

I think that that's what I heard. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

All right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

But they have largely been unregulated. There's no federal regulation of these schools. It's left to the states. And in Montana, there was no regulation, or true regulation, until 2019. And in 2019, a law was passed that provided for these schools to be under the regulation of the Montana Department of Health and Human Services after there was a lot of press about these schools, and that has had some positive effects. 

There has been some closures, investigations, and I'm grateful that we're inching towards that. But for those of us that work in this school, they... in this field, that we know that there needs to be much more done because the people that were running Spring Creek Lodge, they're involved in these other schools in Montana. There's been allegations of abuse or misconduct. The problem is still there. A little bit of regulations are not enough. What we want is federal regulation. That's our goal. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

The ultimate goal. Okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. And the more we talk about it, the closer we can get to that goal. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

And that is where this Netflix documentary called The Program comes in is a former student of one of these schools did a documentary. She is a filmmaker out of LA, former student. And she put together this documentary on these schools and specifically WWASP and did an amazing job. She very talented young woman. 

Took a lot of courage because she's been taking the heat since then. But I was asked to participate in this program... the program, this documentary, which I did, and I was happy to do so. And we are hoping that this will have some positive effect. And just getting the word out is something. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I want to make sure, folks, that you are clear. So there is, as a result of this case, other people have become aware. And this... A past student at one of these schools has filmed that they've created this series on Netflix, and it is called The Program, right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yes. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

So if that's a show, it's a show I got to go look at. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I just... Again, I've had no idea. But I want to make sure all of you listening are aware of what to look for as well. Why... You got involved in this, I guess. And you've had some success changing the law here in Montana. Have you been involved in any other matters with any of these schools? Is this a practice area that you continue in- 

 Ann Moderie: 

Well... 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

... to some degree? 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yes. I've had... I've been personally involved in two other cases. The other one was a case against... another case against Spring Creek Lodge. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

I was involved in another case against another facility. And then I have been acted as a consultant on several other cases that are dealing with these same entities or their same individuals. The school, Spring Creek Lodge, closed in 2009. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

As a result of these legal [inaudible 00:23:53]- 

 Ann Moderie: 

Well, I think they were in legal trouble. They were having these issues and bad press. But I think the economy at that time might have had something to do with the two because this was the recession. 

And to be honest, I think that the recession had a lot to do with these closures. And WWASP is no longer in effect. But as I understand it, the people involved in these companies are still involved in the field but just under different names or under different capacities. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

They kind of just disappear but regrow somewhere else in a different name. But everything... They're still going full bore, is what I'm hearing. 

 Ann Moderie: 

That's my understanding. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah, unfortunately. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Why do you like... Why is it important to you to talk about this? 

 Ann Moderie: 

I feel like the more we talk about it, the closer we are to change. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Because the lawsuits haven't necessarily stopped them. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Bad press. They know how to handle bad press. They're skilled media. They have media point consultants... professional consultants. I feel like the stories are what captures people. And that's why the documentary, I think, is so well done. 

And she interviews and has [inaudible 00:25:20] former students participate and say what their experience was like and then what effect it's had on their lives. And I feel like I didn't even know about it. I didn't even know this existed. But we're making some headway. People are starting to learn about it. And even if it doesn't result in a successful lawsuit, if it prevents one parent from sending a child- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes, of course. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... I've done my job. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. Are there things that you think others, primarily all of us in the legal profession, could do here? 

 Ann Moderie: 

I think being open to cases when they come into your office. I think at least taking a close look at these cases, even if it's not something that you generally handle, hearing these kids out and being open to it. I know that I have been contacted since this documentary came out by many past students, but we have statute of limitations issues. The school closed in 2009. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. Right. 

 Ann Moderie: 

The kids... Statute of limitations starts running when they turn 18 unless there was some kind of... they didn't realize there was a problem, and it was tied to the school. But that's very rare with the records they have in the school. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 Ann Moderie: 

So I hope that as a legal community, we open ourselves up to these stories. And even if you don't end up taking it, trying to give the family the support they need. There are organizations out there that help survivors of these schools that they've got a hotline you can call and get help. So the more awareness we can do as attorneys, I think, is the best. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. And I absolutely agree with you. If you would like, you are welcome to share contact information if anyone in the audience happens to stumble onto something like this. If you would rather not, that is fine. I will share mine. And I assure you folk and mine's widely available, and I can pass things on, but... 

 Ann Moderie: 

Well, I don't want to use this as a means- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It's okay. 

 Ann Moderie: 

... of getting cases either, though. I don't want it to seem like that. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Well, no, no. That's not... It's maybe they have a case, and how did you handle it? 

 Ann Moderie: 

Okay. Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I'm not trying to help drum up business for you. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It's, are you able to, or if you would like to have someone reach out so that they can help spread the word, they can understand what to do. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Sure. Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

If not, I'll just share my information. How about we leave it at that? 

 Ann Moderie: 

Well, I have a website, Moderie Law, and my contact information is on there. I'm always happy I to visit with survivors, and if I can help, help. If I can't, try to refer them to an organization or individuals that can. I'm always in any capacity, whether it's this field... this area of law, or not, I think that we need to do that as attorneys. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. [inaudible 00:28:30]. 

 Ann Moderie: 

[inaudible 00:28:30] job. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to share this story again. And I'm glad that we have an opportunity to continue to try to spread the message. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

This is... I just am still, I wouldn't say, shock. I had no idea. And it's troubling to me. That's the word I'm looking for. 

 Ann Moderie: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Well, folks, I'm going to wrap with that. I encourage you to if you have any interest, and take a look at the Netflix series. Again, it's The Program. And if you have questions, concerns on risk management issues, ethics, insurance coverage, and all the things that I tend to do, I'm not the risk manager for ALPS. I'm hired by ALPS to be the risk manager for the bar at large. 

And you are free to reach out to me at any time if there's anything I can do. My email is mbass, M-B-A-S-S@alpsinsurance.com. A-L-P-Sinsurance, one word.com. And I can also, if you ever want to reach out to Ann and have trouble locating her, reach out to me, and I can pass information along [inaudible 00:29:43] happy to do that. So that's it. Thanks for listening. Have a good [inaudible 00:29:47]. Bye-bye. 

Hello. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to ALPS in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the Historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula Montana. I'm here on a business trip at the mothership, the home office here, and we've had some interesting speakers the past couple of days. And the one that I have enjoyed the most, and have been it's just got all kinds of things gone in my head here, just a lot of things to chew on in terms of life insights is a presentation given by Troy De Baca. And I just want to sit down, and we're just going to chat a little bit. For those of you that have listened somewhat rightly, or more rightly on all that I've done with podcasts, I've done several on listening to your life. I am going to add this discussion to this series, if you will, because man, oh man, is there a lot here. So Troy, welcome. It's a pleasure. 

Troy De Baca: 

Mark, great to meet you. Thanks for having me. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You're most welcome. And before we jump into just having a chat, can you tell our audience a little bit about who you are, and what you are in life I guess? 

Troy De Baca: 

Sure. Sure. So out of the many titles that you can be given, I've magically found myself in this role of entrepreneur, and I know that's a very big buzzword right now, but yeah. I basically am an American entrepreneur, who creates very outside of the box thinking in terms in the world of advertising, and marketing, and promotional items. And what my job is for the most part is when people ask me, "What do you do for a living," I say, "I'm a professional solutionist," because that encapsulates everything that I do. My job is to find solutions primarily for Fortune 500 companies to go out, and do experiential marketing, which is basically finding a company's demographic, or target demographic audience, and then providing them with an experience that they then hold onto, and they have a positive moment with, that they'll hopefully buy the brand, or support the brand. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I love that. I love that, professional solutionist, and boy, trust me, folks, when he talks about what he's done here, it's just like, good for you. God bless. Man oh man, are you freaking kidding me? Got to stop. 

Troy De Baca: 

You're too much. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You talked in this presentation yes a word that it explains some things, but entrepreneurs is not necessarily a word you use comfortably to describe yourself. You just don't see yourself that way. 

Troy De Baca: 

Right. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

But you talk about all of this being unexpected. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

What does that mean? You are in a great place, and tremendous success, but it's very unexpected. What's the journey? 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. So what I'm realizing now that I didn't know growing up is that I've just deeply been passionate about art and creativity. I didn't really know how to express myself. And that got me down paths that as most artists or creatives, there's a dangerous side to it, because you want to explore everything. And then that can be hurtful or harmful when you're not fully in control of your art, or your craft. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Troy De Baca: 

So growing up, I took a lot of [inaudible 00:04:15]. I wanted to get into everything, and explore everything. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

And through doing that, like many artists, I got involved with drugs, and I went down a rabbit hole pretty deep. I got addicted to heroin, and I spent about six years of my life pursuing that. And it took me to some really deep, dark places. And I also overdosed a few times, and was considered legally dead two of those times. So I consider myself very lucky for making it out of that realm. But the process of getting through that, and becoming a normal person again was probably one of the most beneficial points in my entire life. Learning the strength that I had to overcome something so damaging, and through that process, it encouraged me that I can conquer big goals, and big dreams. And to date, that's by far the biggest goal and dream that I've ever conquered. I've been clean for 27 years. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Just an incredible account. 

Troy De Baca: 

And when I say clean, I need to actually, for the listeners, I don't know if some people call me out, because I do drink occasionally, and I dabble in marijuana edibles when I can't sleep. But when I say clean, I mean specifically clean from heroin, because to me, that was the anchor that was going to take me out. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

And I've not touched it in 27 years, and I'm very proud of that moment when I decided that I'm going to do every single thing it takes to never go back. So with that confidence of being able to maintain that goal, and maintain that dream, it's given me confidence in other elements of my life as far as business, and being an entrepreneur, building companies, and really seeing those things through. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

What I find interesting about this is how I hear it and respond to what you're saying is you had a period in your life that was just deep darkness. 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And to have the strength and fortitude to come out of that, and then realize the positive side of all this, if you will, that there's this internal strength, and desire, and say, what I'm trying to do here is, to me, this is it's a big life lesson, or listening to you. It's not. Sometimes things that we look at in our life and miss at times are small, but this is a big thing. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. Absolutely. It was the fork in the road as it were. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you had the courage to really do something that, and I have tremendous respect for this. I don't think this happens a lot. Certainly, a lot of people struggle at times with, and have dark, whether it's mental illness, or drugs, and they can come out the other side, and be better for the experience, but this journey is, our story is a story of extremes. That's what I hear. And the fact that you did this is just crazy cool to me. I want to throw out a few words. 

Troy De Baca: 

Sure. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And just if it fits into the story, what's your response? What do you think? Fears, how do you deal with fears, and explore that with me, because I think, again- 

Troy De Baca: 

I love it. I love it. So when I originally took the steps to get clean, I went through what they call, I believe they call it now more of a therapeutic bootcamp. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Troy De Baca: 

But I went through a pretty hardcore intense program, and through that, I was given this book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And I read that. It was the first book that I can honestly say I read cover-to-cover, and multiple times. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. 

Troy De Baca: 

And I still to this day when I feel like I'm being circled by my fears, and there's no way out, I still turn to this book. And I couldn't even quote anything from it. It's just the magic that I get by reading it, and allowing myself to really walk through the fear, and get to the other side. So I've also given this book over 100 times. I've given it out to people who I saw that were in some pretty fearful moments, and pivotal moments in their life. 

And my process now really goes back to who am I at my core? I'm an artist, and with my art, my mediums are almost anything I can touch, but I have many, many fears. And the easiest way for me to overcome those is to literally just go back to the fact that I know my purpose on this planet, and it's to create, and it's to create my value, and my art. And when I do that, and I see a project come to a close that I was so fearful about, it gives me this magical confidence, and these magical openings to take further steps into the unknown. And that leads me to a risk category. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. That's what's going to talk about next. So let's go there. Let's go there. 

Troy De Baca: 

This leads me to a risk category that many people, I scare a bunch. I scare a lot of people. Many days I scare my wife, because she sees me taking these bold steps, and these bold, literal, just my entire being going into projects that sometimes I'm ill-equipped to be in, but I do this purposely to challenge myself, and to keep myself responsible, and absolutely there for my craft. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

When I do that, the rewards are beyond monetary. They're beyond. They're almost magic is only thing I can say. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

How I respond to that, and again, just boy would I love to have you around for a long time just as a friend to get together and chat. Oh my gosh. 

Troy De Baca: 

I'll have to come down to Florida and visit. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You'd be welcome. Anytime. What I'm hearing is taking risks, and really daring to go way beyond your comfort zone is how you obtain. It's how you discover who you are, and it's how you grow. 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And that's what I'm hearing the returns are. 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

We're not. Yes, I'm sure there's some financial benefits to a lot of these risks. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

So you wouldn't be where you are, but that's not really what this game is about to you. 

Troy De Baca: 

No. It's- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

This is about, "What am I capable of?" And I love it when people dare to see how far they can go. 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

In my mind, I think that's a huge limitation to so many people. 

Troy De Baca: 

I agree. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

We don't dare to put it all out there. And again, it's not about throwing all the money. Sometimes people take- 

Troy De Baca: 

Money is nice. Don't get me wrong. It's nice. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

No, but I'm saying even risking a lot of money to do something. 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And yes. Money is nice. I agree. But the real reason that people are doing this I think is for the excitement, for the fear, for the growth, for the, "It's just life is too short as it is. Let's see what I can get out of this." 

Troy De Baca: 

Mark, you nailed it right there. I want to tell you a sign that I saw hanging on the wall of the place that I'm staying. When I landed in Missoula, I go into the bathroom, and on the wall is this picture that says, "You only get one life, and if you do it right, one is all you need." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. And that's so good. 

Troy De Baca: 

I saw that, and it struck a chord with me, because I'm squeezing this lemon for all it's worth. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

That is clear. 

Troy De Baca: 

Robert plant. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

No. I just am really, I'm here for it. And this is now, I think it is very tied to my addiction as far as getting that dopamine hit. I do the same scary thing in business when I build these companies, and when I build these dreams. When I get the reward of the accomplishment, it is truly the biggest fix of life. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I love that. 

Troy De Baca: 

I still get that strange risk, because it's very risky behavior. I put a lot of money on the line. Sometimes I put my entire reputation, and what I am on the line, but then when I see it through, and I see it on the other side, holy cow. Yeah. The reward is immeasurable. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Again, here's how I respond to this, and I love it. Taking these risks, I think you're comfortable at it. And I'm trying to solidify the learning for me, and I'm trying to share, and express this. So I got to think out loud here, and I got all kinds of planes up. But that response does not surprise me at all, because I think what, again, how I respond to this, here's a guy who is willing to take great risks, but actually comfortable in doing so, because you have traveled this extreme, the strength necessary to do that you know is there. The faith that you can get there is there. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And when it hits, you want to talk about self-validation, and people, we are only capable of validating ourselves. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

No one else can validate us. That's false. That's a false flag. 

Troy De Baca: 

Sure. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

So may I ask you? I'm going to go on a tangent here for a second. 

Troy De Baca: 

Please. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Every risk that you take is not going to play out. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yes. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yes. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

How do you respond to that? 

Troy De Baca: 

I've had massive risks that I've taken that have completely fallen through. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

And what's strange about it, I know that it's been said many times. I can't even pinpoint the first person I've heard or read that said this, but essentially fail fast. When you put yourself out there, and you challenge the norm, you challenge everything that you're doing, the quicker you fail, the quicker you get to the solution, the learning. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

And without the learning, if every project you did came out perfect, if every cake you bake is perfect, then it's going to taste like shit. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

It's not all built to taste good without that failure. And I've got probably 30-70 split ratio. I don't know. I don't know that the ratio. I like pie charts, but one of the biggest gambles that I've taken recently, and this is just post-COVID, we were going into the year 2000. We had approximately 1/4 of a million dollars already booked into that year with clients, and then COVID happened. And every single one of those obviously backed out. And our livelihood, and the company that I had built from this dream literally was at risk. 

And what I started doing was thinking of ways that we could abide by a six-foot rule, or I wasn't sure if we'd ever be able to do live events again, because we obviously couldn't gather, and that's our bread and butter. So what we started doing, and especially when Zoom came on the scene, and it blew up, we started doing virtual conferences with some of our clients, and they had very cold feet about it. That went over okay. It was mediocre. By the way, the company is called The Silk Screen Machine. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. No. Please fill us in a little bit. 

Troy De Baca: 

Our primary goal is to do live customization of promotional products for customers. So we do a lot in the conference and convention space. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

We're in Vegas a ton because of that reason. And when we had all these big clients back out due to COVID, it shook me to the core. In talking about being fearful, every moment of my life was, "How do we?" And I'm going to use words that I don't really necessarily like, but there are buzzwords that you'll understand is, "How do we pivot?" 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

"We know our skillset. How do we showcase what we can do in a Zoom call? Or how do we take orders from guests over Zoom in a virtual conference of thousands of people, and then manage that in-house, and provide these guests with a package that shows up on their doorstep?" 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Mm-hmm. 

Troy De Baca: 

And that's what we did. Then coming out of that cloud, I was riding a high, because this really worked. This was working. We were making money. We were profitable in the virtual space. So then when conferences started, when we were able to gather, but it was still six feet distance, I came up with this plan. Here's the failure attempt. I came up with this plan to devise an app that you could scan. Instead of standing in tight lines, and being on top of each other, you scan the QR code. It's your leisure, and it's a drag and drop T-shirt builder. 

So you could scan an event design, drag it to your T-shirt, place it wherever you want it on the T-shirt, hit send. It would then spit back to our printers that were live. They would then print the item, the garment, or the bandana, or the tote bag, or what have you, and we would be able to hand it over to the guest, put it on a table, walk away. They know it's theirs, staying distant. So great concept. Right? 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

Beautiful. The idea is phenomenal. The reality of it were things that I didn't foresee. The truth of the matter is, and I'm sure all of us know this, because we've all been in conference space, data sucks. Your cellular sucks. You typically don't have a Wi-Fi. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Boy do I know that. 

Troy De Baca: 

The free Wi-Fi is garbage. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

It is. 

Troy De Baca: 

You're not getting anything accomplished on that. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

So what would happen is we would bottleneck, because no one's cell service could actually send it to our printers. So then we would always have a backup method, which was handwriting it, and then handing off tickets. The app actually we sold it for a good deal of money. And the other beautiful thing about the app, which I expressed earlier, was we were collecting people's data, and selling it back to our client, which is very valuable. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

So anyway, we actually, we were making great money with it, but it was a failed product or service. And what ended up happening with it, this is when I had to give it up, and I kept trying, and kept trying, and kept trying it. And eventually what happened is we get this giant bid from Microsoft to go to their, basically it's an intern day. They have people from around the world, all these candidates from around the world. I think it was 3,000 to 5,000 kids that were genius on the computer. And someone hacked our system, and literally sent bogus names, funny names, weird names to our brain, the system. And we had over 50,000 order requests. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh my God. 

Troy De Baca: 

They just kept coming in, and we had no idea whose was real, whose wasn't. So it failed miserably. We had huge backlogs. People were pissed. It was not comfortable. And here I am watching the ship burn, and there's nothing I can do about it. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

It was embarrassing. It was Microsoft for crying out loud, and technology for crying out loud. And here I am botching the worst experience. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh my God. 

Troy De Baca: 

So making it through that immediately got me to the point where I go, "Okay. This isn't going to work, and if it was to work, we need to put a lot more money behind it." And that was a huge learning lesson. And it's weird, because I have this other ability that's very uncanny, and I think most humans don't share this with me, is that I don't care about being embarrassed. I don't care being the butt of a joke. I don't care looking like an asshole. I don't care looking like an idiot, because that's one of the fears that I dealt with most of my life. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

And it would always prevent me from pulling out my best art. So that's one of those things about caring about what other people think. I had to completely relearn, reteach myself to not give a shit, and just do it, and put myself out there in the most embarrassing moments. And that's actually paid off. It's a weird strategy. When you laugh at yourself first, and everyone's in the joke with you, it goes over a lot easier. It's a lot easier to stomach. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Absolutely. 

Troy De Baca: 

So I don't fake the funk now. If I'm going down, I'm going down hard, and you get to watch it. So yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

My suspicion is as we talk about fears, and failures, and all, if you have two choices in life, you're going to pick the one that scares the shit out of you the most. 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And that's the one to go down. 

Troy De Baca: 

Every single time. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And I love that though- 

Troy De Baca: 

Every time. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

... because you're not afraid of failure. It's how you grow. It's how you learn, and it's how you push boundaries. It's a lesson I learned a long time ago myself. I've had multiple times where, "Do I take the safe play, or the other play?" 

Troy De Baca: 

Isn't it funny how those forks in the road are very vivid now? 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh. They are. Absolutely. 

Troy De Baca: 

And they're some of your best growing tools. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. Now, I always go toward the one that says, "It makes me uncomfortable. I'm afraid. I don't know. This is scary as shit." 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

But you have to have some faith, and go, because there's no other way. Again, why are we here? 

Troy De Baca: 

Right? If you play it safe, your couch is only going to get you so far in life. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

You got to get out there. You got to get off the couch, and you got to do it. And obviously, my risks are very different than I think we all have our own set parameters. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. What we might consider risky is going to differ between. Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

I think that one of the coolest things now about risk, and management, and fear is you gain wisdom, and you gain what works, and what doesn't with you. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

And because you're more comfortable with who you are in your space, it allows you to almost not predict the future, but see things a little bit clearer for what a lot of times our fears are complete absurdity. The things that I'm afraid of at night, that keep me awake don't ever come true. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

But the things that do come true, that are factual, that are fact-based evidence, those things, you become intuitive, and you become a little wiser when you approach things in situations. So I'm very grateful for that side of it. It's another feather in the cap. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

One final word, and I want to have you tell one very short story. 

Troy De Baca: 

Sure. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

What does the word relationship mean to you, and how does that play into your story, if you will? 

Troy De Baca: 

Wow. That's a great question. I think that I know now today that without relationships, I don't exist. Whether that be personally, whether it be professionally, I know that if I'm not tending to the garden, so to speak, I'm not doing it right. If I don't listen to people, if I don't hear people in their perspectives, I'm not doing something right. Relationships to me are the ultimate key to almost everything. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Would it be fair to say that there are relationships at all stages, at either end of your story, that there are relationships there that are a foundation for you to stand on? Or would this story have happened absent relationships? 

Troy De Baca: 

Absolutely not. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. So it's not all you. 

Troy De Baca: 

Yeah. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

But you had to do all the hard work. Don't get me wrong at all. But I really want to. I guess what I'm trying to get to, and ask in a roundabout way is it's important I think, to recognize that we are not alone. Did you prioritize? Did you nurture these relationships? Do you continue to do that? Is that fundamental to, again, your story, and where you're at? 

Troy De Baca: 

I think that I have been bad at relationships the majority of my life. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Troy De Baca: 

And one of the biggest, biggest relationships that I've been bad at is the relationship with myself. Personally, I wasn't good to me for most of my life. I had a lot of negative self-talk. I had a lot of doubts about who I am, and where I want to be. So I think one of the greatest gifts that I've come away with over these years is letting myself off the hook, and taking it easier on myself. No one's perfect. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Oh. Absolutely. 

Troy De Baca: 

And I actually embrace my imperfection. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Okay. 

Troy De Baca: 

I know now that without a really healthy relationship with myself, I can't have relationships with other people. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yes. Yes. I love this. 

Troy De Baca: 

And saying that- 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

That's so important. 

Troy De Baca: 

I've had fallings out with my family all my life, especially due to my drug use. There were years that I didn't speak to my closest people, my loved ones, my mom and dad, and my brother. And they stuck through it all. Incredibly strong people that sat by my side in the darkest times of my life, and I still wasn't able to be there for them. And I'm so, so happy that I can say that one of the biggest gifts in my life now is my wife, and my relationship with her. None of this, the business elements, and where we're at, and at the level that we execute would not be possible without her. And she's believed in me, and my ridiculous schemes, and dreams, and goals. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Yeah. 

Troy De Baca: 

She's been right there on the sidelines, cheering me along. And a lot of times, she gets in the game with me now. Now we travel all over the world doing what I love, which is providing these promotional products for companies. And she came on board full-time about two years ago, and it's helped us accelerate. It's just put the pedal to the metal. So shout out to my wife Katie, because she's amazing, and she's the backbone of this operation. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

This story, let's talk about the dream, and one of the learnings from that. I'll let you fill folks in. 

Troy De Baca: 

This is probably the coolest part of my day. And again, going back to my wife, she hears the story, she's like, "I hear it one more time, I'm going to blow up." So she's heard it way more than most. Anyway, really, I started a screen printing company in 2007 in Denver, Colorado with $1,000 loan from my dad. And he put me up in his garage, and he gave me the time and the space to dedicate my life to learning about this craft, and this skill. And through that, I started the company, and was just doing bars, and restaurants, and friends' bands, and things like that. 

And the medical marijuana industry popped up in Colorado. And that was a big. That really put us on the map. We started getting our name passed around the craft beer industry. Of course, we started doing things there, and those were all goals of mine too back then. So when I started playing with some of the biggest brewers out there, it was really a proving ground, and it gave me a lot of faith in our abilities, and what we do. And then in 2012, this is the dream. I had a dream. I was chasing an ice cream truck, and it was this alien spaceship ice cream truck. It had LEDs, and smoke machines, and laser beams, and it was wild. 

And it was so vivid. And I ran up to the truck, and I asked the team that was on the truck, if I could have a Rocket Pop, and a Fudgsicle. And instead of them handing me ice cream, they printed tee-shirts off this truck. I woke up the next morning, and my head was on fire. I couldn't get this dream out of my head. So I went to Google, and I started googling every instance of Screen Printing Truck, and Trucks that Screen Print, and Print Truck, any phrase, and it didn't exist. There were no hits coming back. And A, that blew my mind. But B, it was like, "Wow. Am I onto something?" And then C, I was like, "Let's go build this thing." So I built the first truck in Denver, Colorado. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

As an aside folks, it's a freaking awesome truck. I've seen photos of this. Oh my God. It's awesome. 

Troy De Baca: 

It's wild. I had a graffiti artist from Mexico City who was new to Denver. He painted my truck for very, very cheap. I got a bargain. He didn't know his value, because he's very prominent in Denver now. But his art was just so explosive on this thing. It really carried my vision. And we got this truck on the road, and the next thing, Red Bull came across us, and saw what we were doing, live screen printing, and handing out these promotional items to target demographic audiences. So they picked us up, and they wanted the truck in Los Angeles. And we didn't have a truck there. So we shipped out the truck from Denver, and we did a 30-day marketing campaign with them. And it really set things in motion. I realized right then, "Wow. This is bigger than me." This idea was bigger. And that's really where things took off. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I love it. 

Troy De Baca: 

And then the fact that this wasn't even on my radar at the time, but they wanted to wrap the truck. And boom, there's another revenue stream, is making a billboard truck for clients. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

So yeah. That really, that was the pivotal moment, again, seeing the fork in the road. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

But what is the learning? You talk about if you're going to Google something, when you say- 

Troy De Baca: 

Oh. Yeah. Bottom line. Honestly, when I speak, when I talk to people about it, I go, "If you Google something, and it doesn't exist, it is your job. It's the universe selecting you out of all the people on the planet to go make this thing, to put it on Google. It's your now job." 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Go build it. 

Troy De Baca: 

If the universe gives you a nudge like that, you got to take the blinders off, and you got to look further than where the blinders are. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Right. 

Troy De Baca: 

We spoke about that a little bit, but yeah. Take those cues, because they're there for a reason. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And that's where I want to leave it with your story. Again, folks, I'd like to share a couple of comments. And if you have something to add, please do. We have talked about it. And in my experience, and just personal learning as well, I have a different life story, but a lot of the lessons have been learned are somewhat similar. 

Troy De Baca: 

Mm-hmm. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

We do need to take blinders off, and we do need to look for the sounds, the things that your life is saying to you, the opportunities. Yes. They may be fearful. Yes. They may be risky, but again, if you're trying to set up a new law practice, or you're walking into a firm as an associate on the first day, and it's normal and natural to have these fears, but don't say no to opportunities. Look for them. I love it. 

You talk about the universe giving you this little nudge. I see it as your life is speaking to you, and there's an opportunity here. Only you can see it. Only you get to choose what do you do with it. But if you, for out of fear, not wanting to take risks, all reasons that we don't want to do this, because life's comfortable right now, and it's good, but you're not growing. You're not doing anything. 

Troy De Baca: 

Get off the couch. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Just get off the couch. That's exactly right. So that's the point. And I just have loved visiting with you. It really just- 

Troy De Baca: 

Oh. It's been so fun, Mark. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

And I want you to hear just guy to guy. I find, here's how I want to say this, to have the opportunity to have met you, to have some discussion yesterday, and today, and to listen to you speak, I feel quite privileged to visit with you. I really do. 

Troy De Baca: 

That's heartfelt Mike. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

I want to say, well done. 

Troy De Baca: 

Thank you. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

You're somebody I really look at, and admire, and respect for just the courage to do all that you've done, and we could talk for a long time yet about what's coming. 

Troy De Baca: 

Oh. And we will. We will, offline. Yeah. No. I don't take that lightly. I really, really thank you for that. I'm so grateful to have this opportunity with you, and it's been fantastic to get to know you, and chat about life, and everything that goes with it. 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Well, I hope we can stay connected. That's it, folks. Before I sign off, I just want to remind all of you that while I am the risk manager here at ALPS, I am not a traditional corporate risk manager. I am hired by ALPS to be your risk manager, a risk manager for the bar at large, nationwide. So feel free to reach out anytime if you have questions, concerns, anything that I could do to try to help. Whether it's risk management in your practice, law practice management, ethics, the list just goes on and on. Even want to talk insurance, now, there's an exciting topic, but I'm happy to explain all kinds of things. You can reach me at mbass, M-B-A-S-S @alpsinsurance. That's one word, A-L-P-S insurance.com. That's it. Thanks all. Bye-Bye. 

Hello everybody. Welcome to episode 84 of the In Brief Podcast, brought to you by ALPS. My name is Rio Peterson and I am the Bar and Affinity Partnership Strategist here at ALPS. And I'm also going to be your host for today's episode. So I'm going to be chatting today with Meri Althauser. Hello, Mary. 

Meri Althauser: 

Hello. 

Rio Peterson: 

Thank you for joining us today. 

Meri Althauser: 

You're welcome. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

So Mary is the Director of Admissions at the Montana University Law School, correct? 

Meri Althauser: 

Right, yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

University of Montana Law School. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yes, yes. Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

And so today we're just going to be talking about your legal career. I know you spent some time as a solo and now you spend your time guiding the next generation of the lawyers out into the world. So we wanted to just sit down and chat about your experiences. 

Meri Althauser: 

Perfect. Happy to be here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. We're happy you joined us. 

Meri Althauser: 

Good. 

Rio Peterson: 

So I think I wanted to get started in talking about your origin story. How did you become a lawyer? Was there a moment where you're like, "This is what I'm going to do?" 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, so law school and being a lawyer was actually never on my radar whatsoever. I started off going to music school. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, really? 

Meri Althauser: 

I played the violin and I shifted a bit from there because actually music school was so competitive, it made it no fun whatsoever. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, really? 

Meri Althauser: 

So law school was much better in comparison actually, if you can believe it or not. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Meri Althauser: 

But I did some social work after law school and through that I kind of had a no more Mr. Nice Guy moment when one of my clients allowed her baby to be cared for by an extremely violent person that we knew of, had warned of. It was a headlines-grabbing incident, and I said, okay, no more. I want to go to law school. I want to represent kids in court in foster care and protect kids from abusers. And so within a matter of weeks I had taken the LSAT and applied for law school and was signed up for law school. I really didn't think it through honestly. It was just a very quick snap decision and the rest is history. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that history. So you went to law school and then did you end up defending children in court or did you take another path? 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, I did. So right out of law school, I worked with an insurance defense company, and we primarily worked on kind of car accident type cases, so it was just kind of a traditional launch into learning how to be a lawyer. But they did let me add on a contract with the public defender so I could take kids. So for a very small portion of my caseload there, I represented kids in court. I did that for about two years, and then I was invited to join a small firm in Missoula that we did sliding scale legal services. And so we did primarily family law and very small issues on a sliding scale, serving our clients anywhere from 75 to $150 an hour, and also continued with my contract with the public defender. So I did that a lot while I was there. I did that for about five years, and then I went into solo practice and continued. I've always kept few of those kids on my case load. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, I feel like that had a big impact on you. Is that something that you felt like you were making a difference? 

Meri Althauser: 

It did. It's a small difference. On the big scheme of things, it's a small role to represent foster kids in court, but I got to do fun things like take Child Protective Services to court because they wouldn't pay for my client's prom dress or senior pictures, or they couldn't figure out how to get them to soccer practice or something. I got to fight to make life normal for the kids that for their life, their lives were anything but normal. And it was really a delight. And some of those kids I'm still in contact with today and say, "You were one of the only people that was actually a constant presence in my life when everything was total chaos." And so that was really a pleasure. 

Rio Peterson: 

And I think to me, that sounds like in the grand scheme of things, that is a really big thing and it's a very, I think, difficult existence to have when your life is constantly in flux and to have a constant presence. The fact that you still talk to some of them is testament to the impact that had. Yeah. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. I think it really kind of captures in the most purest sense the role of a lawyer, which is to be there for somebody when things are hard. And you can do tangible things. There can be to-do's on the list that you can accomplish, but it's always the most rewarding moments are when clients are like, "You were there for me. Maybe we didn't get what we wanted, or maybe we got the opposite of what we wanted, but I felt like I had somebody on my side, and that's what made the difference." 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I couldn't agree more. I think it's easy to lose sight of how important that is in the grand scheme of things. I mean, typically when someone has a legal problem, it's a very emotional, difficult time for them. They're not seeking legal counsel because life's awesome. Every is great. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. It's kind of an all bad news business. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Meri Althauser: 

I'm sure there's areas of the law where it is good news and you're helping to amplify entrepreneurs and businesses and stuff like that, but that's not family law. 

Rio Peterson: 

Not family law. So you worked with the firm and you did some public defender work for several years, and then you moved into your own practice and became a solo. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yes. 

Rio Peterson: 

What inspired you to take that step forward? 

Meri Althauser: 

What inspired me to take that step forward was a desire for more freedom, certainly with working with three or four other attorneys and staff. Oh, here's a fun side hustle that I was also doing. I was running a fitness center. I ran a gym. 

Rio Peterson: 

That's awesome. 

Meri Althauser: 

Because I had started working out there and the owner was going to quit, and I liked the gym so much, I was like, "You can't quit. Okay, I'll just take it over for you. I can do this." And so I was doing that on the side, which was understandably difficult then for my partners to be like, "Well, when are you going to be at the gym? When are you going to be here?" It wasn't insurmountable, but it seemed like it would lend itself to more freedom to work that kind of side gig for fun and not have to kind of communicate quite as much about my plans because I just didn't know my plans and I needed to be more of a free spirit. 

Rio Peterson: 

More autonomy. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, totally. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Was it scary stepping out onto your own like that? 

Meri Althauser: 

It wasn't scary for me because I knew I already had a reputation and a client base that would follow me by name. And because I had been running a firm together with other people, that was a good training ground. I felt like it would be really easy to just replicate what we were doing on my own on a smaller scale. And so that really gave me the confidence to do it without too much worry. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. That's great. Were there other support or any support systems that you pulled from or leaned on while you were getting started? 

Meri Althauser: 

A lot of the products that lawyers use just offer support, just like ALPS has somebody you can call and say, "Hey, I'm thinking of doing it this way," or materials. And the same with, I used CLEO and CLEO was like that, and the state bar of Montana. So I felt like no matter what it was, there was always a resource that was easily there to help. 

In addition, Montana is a really small bar. We don't have a million attorneys, and we keep in touch with our classmates and our professors. And so I had friends who were doing it who I could ask, "Okay, how do you handle this? What's it like? Is it scary? Do you feel all alone? What are the biggest struggles?" And so I was able to just survey my friends, even talk to my professors who were teaching the law practice class to get any information and support that I needed at all. The legal community is just like, "Yes, do it. You're going to love it." So I think Montana is a really special place in that regard. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. I love when people support each other in being successful. Yeah. 

Meri Althauser: 

Totally. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. So speaking of challenges, what were some that you experienced? 

Meri Althauser: 

So there's always kind of a, oh, what do you call it? Now that I have to say it out loud, like imposter syndrome. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, yes. 

Meri Althauser: 

Like I'm too young and I haven't done enough stuff. I mean, back then I was too young. And oh, you just couldn't hack it at a real firm. And those kind of things. You're always kind of have a bit of self-doubt or feeling like other people are questioning or judging you, which I don't know if that's really real or just kind of perceived because it's not like any other attorney was like, "Oh, so you can't hack it. Stupid effort." I've never heard that. My friends talk about other people that way. So that's certainly a challenge. I was from time to time worried about not having enough business, but that was also never really real. 

It was almost like the universe provides. You'd notice that I'm finishing up a big project and I'm like, oh, crap. After I finish this project, I'm not actually sure what I need to do next week. And then the phone rings with a lovely person with a very tangible need that you're like, "Oh, this is what I'm doing on Monday." So that never actually happened, and it was actually kind of fun to do creative. I worked with an SEO person, and so what ad words do we use? What do I post online? That kind of part was kind of fun. Although at the same time it felt like it carried a lot of weight, like if I don't do it right, I won't have anything to eat. 

But that never happened. And then really just having the buck kind of stop with you about everything. On the one hand, it's a real blessing. I can go on vacation, I can turn on my auto reply. I can decide that I'm not going to take any cases. I can kind of control my own income in that way. But at the same time then, every decision and everything, there's nobody to bounce the ideas off of. There's nobody to share in the project management. Any client question or question from client's mom or grandma or cousin, it's always back on you. And that can feel like a lot of pressure and it would just be nice to share that with somebody. But then you'd have to share it with somebody. You won't have the same autonomy. So it's kind of like a battle that you've chosen. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's funny about imposter syndrome. I think we all assume that everybody else knows what they're doing and they're going to know that I don't know what I'm doing. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. It's so easy to think that everyone's got it all figured out except you. 

Meri Althauser: 

Right? Yeah, I know. Why is that our default setting? I know I have that conversation with students at school all the time because they're really afraid of getting cold called in school, like they show on Legally Blonde, and then she always gets it wrong, and everybody's making fun of her. And really everybody's just thinking, "Oh, thank God they didn't call on me because I thought the same thing. I would've gotten it wrong too." Nobody's judging each other in class, but it is really hard to swallow your own advice sometimes. 

Rio Peterson: 

Absolutely. We're so good at giving it to others. We're just like, "I don't know. I've never heard that before." And something that you kind of touched on was there's nobody to bounce ideas off. There's nobody else around. And I would imagine that gets kind of lonely, and I know isolation is something that a lot of solos really have to deal with and navigate. Did you realize how isolated you were when you were practicing, when you had your solo practice? 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. I don't think I did. So I had been in solo practice for a number of years and I was having a conversation with somebody from my building who was a marriage counselor. I worked in a building where it was just like a coworking space, and there was all sorts of different people there, and he had left. So I was just having coffee with him. And then he said, "You know, if I look back on it all these years, I wouldn't have spent my time alone in that basement. It was really lonely." And he only realized it because he had left. And the thought had never really occurred to me. And I'm like, "What are we talking about? We see each other for coffee all the time." You can really call any of your friends who are attorneys to bounce actual legal ideas off of. It really had never occurred to me, the loneliness. And I didn't even really absorb it that day when he said it. 

But then when I got offered this job at the law school, and I have always loved my law school, and so every once in a while I've just considered going back. And so I kind of applied for the job for admissions thinking, I'm actually not sure if I want it yet because I feel good about what I've got going on here. And so they offered me the job, and the next day I went and I started reading the settlement brochures for the case that I was going to handle as a settlement master the next day. So that's where people send you, here's all the crappy stuff that this person did and why they're a jerk, and here's all the crappy things that this person did and why they're a jerk. And then I read them together and I find a way to mediate the case and get them to settle. And I spend all day doing so. And I started reading them and I started sobbing so hard, I actually fell to the ground. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, wow. 

Meri Althauser: 

It hit me in that moment when I had something else to compare it to that, "Oh, my life could maybe not involve this amount of bad stuff," that I realized how hard I had emotionally been working in order to get this type of information from people. And then I just set the emotion aside and I start kind of working the Rubik's cube of it all. But really I felt like I was the only one working the Rubik's cube. Like they're going to tattle, they're going to tattle. They're going to try to pull each other in different directions. They're going to try to convince me to go in different directions, but I'm the only one with the cube that I can see it all and solve it all. And you have to set aside so much emotional baggage, even just to hear the bad things that people are saying about each other, that I just didn't really realize that emotional load that I was putting in until I had something else to compare it to. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Meri Althauser: 

And that was a type of loneliness. It was just like, I'm the only one working this problem. So yes, I did have an aha moment where I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think I need to take a break. Maybe if we could change something." 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. I think it's often something that we don't consider is that emotional work is work. It's a lot. It takes quite a toll on your body, both physically and mentally. And I think we were talking about this earlier, where you get so used to borrowing from your future self just to get through the day that you don't even realize that you're doing all of this and that you've hit a point that where maybe you need to change. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. And I even consider myself pretty good at managing the emotional toll. I didn't let people's moods bother me. I was able to work with the problem. I was staying healthy. I know once you've had a really crappy day, you need to kind of flush all of that garbage out of your body with some exercise, or time and nature. And I write articles on how to stay well as a practicing attorney. But that still wasn't quite good enough I think in that moment to realize when I had this realization that I might not have to have to work that problem anymore. And then came in the imposter syndrome syndrome, like, "Well, aren't I a dumb dumb? I'm not even doing my own wellbeing good enough." It spirals. Look, everyone's going to know I'm not supposed to here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. It's difficult. It's a difficult reality to face, I think. Yeah. What's some advice you'd have for solos trying to balance life and their practice and the toll that that takes? 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. I think being able to identify the untold work that you're doing, really capture it, name it to tame it, find something to do to counteract or help with it. If I had to do it all over again, recognizing how lonely it is, I would find a way to be creative about, "Okay, how do I have a thought partner, but still the same freedom?" So maybe does that mean I contract with somebody during mediation days that we work together about it? Or do I at least have an assistant or an associate of some sort who I feel like can have my back from time to time? It might be how do we balance the being able to be autonomous but not be alone? Do they have to be mutually exclusive? 

But the second piece of advice would just be to follow regular all the wellbeing stuff. Other people's bad vibes are contagious, and so you need to be able to have a really good method other than just stuffing it down or ignoring it to not catch other people's bad vibes. And then you also need to take care. Stress that you feel actually just still lives in your body. It just lives in your blood. It's a cortisol. It's different hormones, and it'll stay there unless you flush it by physically moving it out of your body. So I think a default mechanism just to go home, veg out, have some beer or watch some Netflix, but that just lets it all stay there so you haven't actually flushed it. So if that's your coping mechanism, at least go for a walk first. [inaudible 00:20:46] some water. And it is amazing how some time in nature and some walks really do make you feel better. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, yeah, I know. I always say, I got to go for a stupid walk for my stupid mental. I think your body gets really good at convincing you that just sitting around is actually going to be fine. That's going to work out totally fine for you. But in reality, you need to be moving. And as much as it might suck to get out and get it started when you don't feel like it is really important, and it helps a lot. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. That's really good advice. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, for sure. 

Rio Peterson: 

So you're not practicing anymore. You're not a solo practitioner anymore. You are now the Director of Admissions. And I know you were saying that sometimes law students can give you a hard time for not practicing anymore. How does that feel? What do you have to say to somebody who's thinking about maybe they've gone to school, they're a lawyer, and maybe they're like, I want to do something else with this knowledge. I want to do something else with this. What would you say to that? 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, I think just along the same lines as the imposter syndrome, I think the courage or anyone's goals to do something that is not a traditional legal job really feels like it might be shrouded in some sort of shame or that you couldn't hack it or something like that. Again, something that's probably mostly all in your head in that there are plenty of great pathways that don't have to involve legal practice, that include all the critical thinking, all the leadership skills. Really going to law school is learning how to take a whole bunch of balls of yarn that are all entwined, that all seem like they have the same priority and the same urgency, and being able to pull them apart into a nice order of operations. And we're going to do blue first, and then we're going to dig yellow. 

That's what thinking a lawyer really is. And it has so many applications elsewhere. So I know happy attorneys who are real estate agents and who run nonprofits. I love working at the law school. I feel like I can coach and mentor and help law students form good habits from the get-go so they don't get that burnout feeling that I got. I'm helping them at the source, and I feel like that's where my impact could be better. So we just need to erase any of that shame or judgment that we might feel about doing something different. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really love what you said too about all of those things that you learned to become a lawyer being just applicable to so many wider different settings and situations. And absolutely, critical thinking skills, there's a lot to be said for that in everyday life. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, definitely. 

Meri Althauser: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. What would be some advice that you'd give to a law student, a new law student, or someone even thinking of applying to law school? 

Meri Althauser: 

Oh, my gosh. 

Rio Peterson: 

You're on the spot now. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. I think it's really important to make sure you know your why about why you want to be a lawyer. And then think more about that why, to make sure that it is kind of burnout proof or more universally applicable. So for example, when I said I want to go to law school to represent kids in court, that was super specific. And I did it, but it wasn't quite broad enough so that if I felt burnt out about representing kids in court, or really at the end of the day, it didn't pay enough and so it wasn't going to be a sustainable long-term big picture thing, I felt really lost. And so making sure that a goal is more process oriented, like "I want to go there because I want to be there for people in their time of need." 

Rio Peterson: 

Well, that's process. You can win on that every day. 

Meri Althauser: 

As long as you're not the person who ghosts their clients and actually isn't there for them. 

Rio Peterson: 

And there's a lot of different ways you can do that too. 

Meri Althauser: 

And there's a lot of ways you can do that. So yeah, so really honing in of that, why do you want to do it? Because it's a really big, I mean, it's a big financial investment. It's a big academic investment. But it's more emotional investment than I think we're really prepared for because it's not like you would think. Like, "Oh, if I'm going in to be a counselor," that's a big emotional investment and that's probably my strong suit. But people going to law school, their strong suit might be political science, history, logic. And there's not the same expectation or preparedness for the emotional investment that they're making for society. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. I think I'm kind of thinking about another Legally Blonde quote. I think the teacher, doesn't she say that the law is reason free from passion, doesn't she? 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. That rings a bell. 

Rio Peterson: 

So yeah, and I think it's such an interesting thing to say because it's just, I mean, the law maybe is theoretically free of passion, but the people who practice it aren't. 

Meri Althauser: 

No. 

Rio Peterson: 

There's feeling and emotion no matter what. 

Meri Althauser: 

And the real stories that got them there are real stories of real people's lives that have real consequences depending on how good you are at your reasoning. I think that kind of maybe tips over into more of a coping mechanism that's like, "Well, we'll just stuff it down." We'll just say it's free from passion, and we'll pretend it's free from passion and we'll be in denial that there's any emotion involved, and that's how we will be fine. 

Rio Peterson: 

If you have passion, you're doing it wrong. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yes, yes. 

Rio Peterson: 

And then you're burnt out. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, is there anything else you want to add or you'd like to say to the audience out there, to our friends and listeners at home? 

Meri Althauser: 

Oh my gosh. Come to the University of Montana Law School. It's the best law school. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. Fantastic. 

Meri Althauser: 

We're friendly there. It's a good school. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. Fantastic. You have great people to guide you. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yes. 

Rio Peterson: 

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for chatting with me today. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, you're welcome. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, I really, really appreciate it, and I want everyone to know to stay tuned, because you will likely be around a bit more. We might be getting some content from you and having some more discussion. So yeah, looking forward to it. 

Meri Althauser: 

Yeah, likewise. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks so much. Thank you so much to all of our listeners at home and wherever you may be. Have a wonderful week. 

—

Rio Peterson: 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to In Brief episode 83, Women Lawyers on Guard. My name is Rio Peterson. I am the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS, and today, I'm going to be chatting with two fantastically inspiring women, Cory Amron and Corrine Parver. Cory, Corrine, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thanks so much. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you, Rio. 

Rio Peterson: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

I'm really pleased to be here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. So, before we dive in, I know we've got a really interesting conversation ahead of us today, which I've been very looking forward to for the past few weeks, since we had our first chat. But before we started, I wanted to find out if you could tell us a little bit about you, who you are, where you live, where you came from. Corey, why don't we start with you? 

Cory Amron: 

Okay, great. Alphabetical order. I live in Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, D.C. I've been here for yeah, 30 some-odd years. I'm now retired, but I worked primarily for a number of law firms that, some of which are no longer around, but most recently retired from the firm of Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease, which started as a Midwest-based firm, here in D.C. 

I have been working over my 40-year legal career not only day-to-day clients, et cetera, but also on women's and diversity issues. So, for instance, I was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, the second chair. In 1991, I took over right over right as Anita Hill was testifying in the Senate at Clarence Thomas' confirmation hearing. So, that was kind of a trial by fire. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Cory Amron: 

So, I've also had a lot of experience working on sexual harassment and things like that, and then, fast-forward, co-founded Women Lawyers on Guard in 2017. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great. All right, fantastic. Corrine, how about you? 

Corrine Parver: 

I'm also a retired lawyer. First career was as a physical therapist for 15 years before going to law school. So, I went to law school primarily because I wanted to work in the health law area. My practice, when I was a partner in a law firm, was geared towards policy, regulations, as opposed to litigation. 

After I retired from practicing law, I was a law professor for close to 10 years, where I created the Health Law and Policy program at American University Washington College of Law and enjoyed teaching the young students and remained involved with the law school over the past few years, even though I am retired from actually teaching, and joined forces with Cory and our gang of warriors in 2017 to now be the president of Women Lawyers on Guard Action Network. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. So, you both retired to then go on to do more incredible things in your post-retired life. Fantastic. Now, you mentioned you both founded and you run Women Lawyers on Guard. We know that's a nonprofit organization that's been doing some really especially important work around understanding and addressing sexual harassment in the legal profession, and that's what obviously what we're here to talk about today. So, before we really dig into the deeper part of this conversation, I'd love for the audience to learn a bit more about what Women Lawyers on Guard does. What is your mission? Why don't you tell us a little bit about how everything got started? 

Cory Amron: 

Okay, so in the end of 2016, I was a member of a national network of women lawyers, and we decided that we really needed to do something, both to protect women's rights that we had worked so hard over 40 plus years, and also expand women's rights into the next couple of years. So, we organized Women Lawyers on Guard that first year, in 2017, to bring together our volunteers, because as I said, we have a network around the country, with the legal needs of other nonprofits. 

Corrine and I went around and met with a lot of nonprofits and asked them what their legal needs were, because we weren't quite sure what exactly we wanted to do. We wanted to do something. And frankly, our volunteers didn't know exactly what they wanted to do, either. So, this was sort of marriages made in heaven, and we would match our volunteers with those legal needs. 

After about a year or so of doing that, we decided we really needed to focus our areas, and that's when we did some very heavy-duty strategic planning and came up with three areas that we were going to focus on. So, sexual harassment obviously was key, because right at that time, #metoo exploded, but we decided also that we were not going to just do one area, but we also picked women's reproductive rights, which actually at that time was not exploding but is of course now, and gender and workplace equity. Those are the three. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. I'm curious to know, how was it that sexual harassment and this area was something you both identified as an area that you wanted to be involved in? Is this something that's impacted you directly in your life? I mean, you both had pretty incredible, long careers, so I suspect that at some point, you may have encountered this. 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, as Cory said, the #metoo explosion made it even more impressed upon us that we needed to speak up for this particular area, and there were other groups that were focusing on, for example, Hollywood and the restaurant industry, and the marketing and public relations areas. We thought we needed to focus on the legal profession, and that's because we had heard stories for years, the years that we practiced, that this was a concern with people. 

We wanted to be able to represent their interests and try to do something about it, and that's how we got really involved in focusing on the legal profession, because no other group was doing that on a national basis. There were some people statewide doing certain surveys and the like, but not on a national basis. And because we were, and are, a national organization, that's what we decided to focus on. 

Cory Amron: 

And just if I could add too, that when we started to talk to lots of people in the profession when #metoo exploded, and came to determine really that there were those who didn't see it happening in the legal profession, either because well, because it wasn't happening to them, and so they just thought, "Well, we have all of these policies, and we have these trainings, and that's ... we're good to go." 

Then, we talked to other people, and not just young people, who said, "Oh my God, let me tell you what happened yesterday to me," or to my colleague, or to somebody I was in the room with, et cetera. It was like, "Ugh." We'll get into our survey, but that's kind of what led us to do that. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. Right. Absolutely. So, really realizing that despite best intentions, this is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis. So, let's talk quickly a little bit about DWL's mission. I know you mentioned that you focus on three areas, and what is the overarching mission of your organization? 

Cory Amron: 

Well, we have a very broad mission because again, as I mentioned, we didn't quite know what we were going to do at the beginning. So, our mission is that we are a national network harnessing the power of the law to ... well, to go after and make sure that people have equality, they have justice, and there's equal opportunity for all. So, it's a very broad mission. We have a 501(c)(3), which is the one behind me, and we have a 501(c)(4) which is what's behind Corrine, so that we can do different things in these spaces with the different organizations. 

For instance, obviously we do a lot of programming around these topics, and of course with the pandemic, we've been able to do that around the country. We not only sign onto amicus briefs, but we've also written amicus briefs, particularly one in the Dobbs case, on behalf of women lawyer organizations, which of course was ignored. We do studies, obviously we'll talk about them, and initiatives around these various topics. 

And of course, we have this network that we activate when needs be, and we also advocate. As I said, we have different arms that we can do different types of things, but we've done lobbying and with letters, advocating to policymakers. We sign petitions, and we get out there and march. 

Corrine Parver: 

I've had some really interesting experiences doing that. One of the other things that we do also is work in coalition with other groups there from out of the University of Texas, The Council on Women and the Law and the National Conference of Women Bar Associations, and the National Association of Women Lawyers. So, we have done programs with all of those groups and attended various coalition meetings to learn about what these groups are doing. The American Bar association also, as Cory had mentioned earlier, has a commission on women in the profession, and we are looking to collaborate with them, as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right. Fantastic. I know we're kind of deviating just a little bit, but we will definitely be talking about the survey, but I'm curious to know, so obviously, you're doing a lot. You're doing a lot of work, and so is the organization run primarily by volunteers? I'm guessing you have a pretty incredible team. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yes, we are. We are 100% volunteer-driven, and it's pretty much been the same board of directors that have been together since its inception. We've had some people go into certain government roles that prohibited them from continuing to be on our board, but they all, they continue to support us. We have a Facebook presence. We have a LinkedIn presence, and Instagram, trying to make ourselves known via social media. So, through that, we get our messages out to the various communities. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. It's really wonderful that you're devoting your time to this undertaking. It's fantastic. 

Cory Amron: 

And we're always looking for more to grow our network. 

Rio Peterson: 

Fantastic. I think at the end of the chat, we'll have a chance to ... We'll plug and let everyone know where to get ahold of you and how they can participate. 

Cory Amron: 

That's great. That's super. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right, so now, we've kind of alluded to a survey a few different times, so I would love to dive into that, because it's really, really fascinating. So, in 2020, I know you published a report titled Still Broken, and that shared the results of the national survey that was conducted by Women Lawyers on Guard, and the intention of the survey was to better understand not so much the prevalence of sexual harassment but rather the experience of those affected by it, in addition to uncovering the impact that this has on the legal profession. So, I would really love to know if you could share with us some of the methodology behind the survey itself, and expand on how the survey is different from typical surveys about sexual harassment. 

Corrine Parver: 

What we were very fortunate in being able to collaborate with a well-known researcher who is a woman by the name of Dr. Arin Reeves, who is also a lawyer in addition to having her PhD in certain aspects of statistical analyses. We put together a group that went through the actual drafting of the survey questions, and it took us a good couple of months to be able to go back and forth to hone in on all the areas that we wanted to investigate. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

Cory? 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, so what else? My job actually was sending this out and trying to get people to respond it. So, it was not a survey where it was a closed box of respondents. It was a survey where we were just trying to get as many people as we could to respond to it, both women and men. Lo and behold, we did get a representative sample, even though we hadn't put that sample together, but we analyzed it afterwards and compared it to the demographics that the ABA keeps about lawyers, and was very representative of the box of the profession and where people were geographically, and ages and things like that. So, it was, we felt, a pretty good picture of what was going on. 

We were also, because we asked people to tell us the sort of 10-year tranche when something that they were talking about in the survey occurred, we were able to measure change over time, and I think that's one of the things about the survey that's been extremely valuable, to be able to say, "This was like this, and now it's like this." 

Corrine Parver: 

We also gave the respondents the opportunity to comment throughout the survey questions. So, when it came time to look at an issue of great import, we allowed comments. 

When we collated all the information, we gathered literally hundreds of different comments from our respondents, and included some of the quotes from their comments in an appendix in the Still Broken report. So, I would encourage everyone who listens to this podcast to actually go online to our website and read the report, and also the appendices, so that they can see the lasting effect of some of the experiences that they went through. 

Rio Peterson: 

Absolutely, and that's something that really stood out to me when I was reading the report. I think it's very often that we overlook the context surrounding these types of experiences, and I found that that really just added so much depth to understanding the issue and just understanding the experiences of those who have been impacted by sexual harassment in their workplace and just in all different ways. It was really unique, I think, the way that you've approached this. Yeah. Can you share with us some of the results of the study? 

Cory Amron: 

Yes, absolutely. Well, first, I guess I wanted to say some of the positive things that we saw. There were some. For instance, we asked about the culture of harassment within the person's employment setting, and as I mentioned, these are settings all across the board, everything from the judiciary to academia, to law firms and associations, the government, et cetera. 

What we found was that, at the very least ... We gave them choices. They could say it was often part of the culture. In other words, it was just ubiquitous. Or they could say it was part of the culture, so it was within certain departments, or groups, or whatever. Or they could say it was rare, rarely manifested itself. 

So, 30 years ago, we found that the respondents said 51% of these incidents were often, often part of the culture, 38% just various departments, and only 10% was it rare. Now, we've found, and these will be easier to see when the people read the report, 25% was often. So, it went from 51% to 25% was often. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Cory Amron: 

So, that actually shows that there is change, and that the change is for the better. However, they also said that 48% part of the culture. So, if you add often and part together, you find what you see is that 30 years ago, 89% of these cultures had either often or in some places in the employment setting, whereas now, it's 73%, right? 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

So, it's better, but it's obviously not right. So, that's one of the more positive aspects. Another positive aspect we saw was that, we asked about, in one place, who was doing the harassing. We found that a lot less now from professors in law school and a lot less now from judges in court. However, partners- 

Corrine Parver: 

And there's always a however. 

Rio Peterson: 

There's always a however, yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

However, partners and supervisors still kind of similar statistics from 30 years ago, and now, there's maybe somewhat more from clients. 

Corrine Parver: 

Another positive finding was that, in comparison over the 30-year span that we asked about, is that there were fewer sexual assaults and rapes nowadays than occurred in the past, although I think what we saw an increase in was a lot of verbal comments, name-calling such as the like. So, there was a plus on one side, but then again, the bubble expanded in another area where there is more name-calling and appearance criticisms, et cetera. 

Cory Amron: 

So, some of the negative results that we found were, as we mentioned, it's still insidious, and we called it insidious and alarming, the incidents. We'll talk about some of these things later, but the barriers to reporting were absolutely identical today as they were 30 years ago, things like, they didn't think they would be believed, or they thought they'd be retaliated against, nothing was going to happen, et cetera. 

The price to the people who were harassed, and by the way, most of these people are women, not all of them, but most of them, was just devastating, and long-lasting. I mean, there was one quote where, "Even though this happened once while I was a law student over 30 years ago, it still haunts me." 

So, the consequences to the people who are harassed, long-lasting anxiety in the workplace, fear of retaliation, loss of productivity, loss of confidence, and in the entire workplace, you find loss of productivity, anxiety, et cetera, things like that. So, the consequences to the workplace, even if it's not just the people who are harassed, is consequential, and in fact so consequential that we made a determination, not statistically, but that the consequences to the people who were harassed was greater than the people who were doing the harassing. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Right, and unfortunately, that sounds ... Yeah. That sounds not surprising. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, unfortunately. 

Corrine Parver: 

Another major finding that was a little bit surprising to us was that people at every level of the profession have experienced harassment of one form or another. Professors, judges have responded to us that in their capacity at really the highest levels of the profession still have experienced that kind of harassment. 

Cory Amron: 

Partners, general counsel. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. I think that was something that really disappointed and surprised me deeply. You would think that, once you reach a certain level in your career, you maybe garner enough respect that that type of behavior is curbed in others, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and I definitely found that to be very surprising and discouraging, in a lot of ways. I mean, you work really, really hard to get to where you are, and you still have to [inaudible 00:25:49] that same sort of nonsense, it's very disappointing. Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that, at least the way that we look at this, that sexual harassment is not a sexual thing. It's a control thing. And so people find ways to control other people, whether those people are partners or associates, or supervisors, or general counsel, whatever. This is a tool that some people use to control others. So yes, it's somewhat surprising, but maybe not so if you look at it through that lens. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Absolutely. That's an excellent, excellent way to think about it. Was there any other findings that you both found surprising? 

Corrine Parver: 

I think the numbers that we were able to calculate on the issue of reporting sexual harassment, that was a bit surprising, that the vast majority of people don't report. Either they don't have the right circumstances in their place of employment for them to report an incident. For example, if there is someone working in a small law firm, and there is on HR department, or even if there is, it could be the spouse of one of the senior partners, or the named partner of the small firm. How do you go about doing the reporting in that circumstance? So, the numbers were really quite staggering, as far as many people not reporting incidents. 

Cory Amron: 

It was something like 86% currently are not reported. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Cory Amron: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. That's a very large number. So, I know that the goal of this study is not only to understand these experiences, but also to take these findings and use them to impact some kind of positive change in the legal professional. So, I'm curious to know, thinking about all these points that we've just touched on, what were some of the recommendations that came about as a result of the survey? 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, go ahead. 

Corrine Parver: 

No, go ahead. 

Cory Amron: 

No, you. No, you. 

Corrine Parver: 

There's so much that we want to say, we want to make sure we get it all in. 

Cory Amron: 

Right, right, right. Well, I just want to mention three, three recommendations. There were a lot of recommendations, and Corrine, please pick up after I finish. The three that I want to mention are the reporting, because of just the terrible statistics, something we call transparency, and also individual accountability. 

So, the reporting, you can have the greatest policies, and training, and all that in the world, but if people don't feel comfortable reporting, and of course all the barriers that we just mentioned, then you're not going to hear about it. You're not going to be able to fix it. So, you need not only better reporting mechanisms, you need multiple reporting mechanisms, and you need support for reporting. That somewhat goes to the culture, so that has to come from the top down. I've heard male general counsels say that if you put better reporting mechanisms into place and your reporting goes up, you're actually doing a good job, because now, you're finding out about things that were happening that you did not know about before because there were too many barriers. So, reporting. 

The second thing is transparency, and what that means is what the workplace knows. Oftentimes, in the statistics that we found from the survey, we found that even in the 14% of incidences that were reported, 50% of those, there was absolutely no consequence, and another 20%, the person who'd been harassed was never told what the consequences were. 

So, knowing what happens and what steps the employer took is key, I think, in first of all creating a culture of A, reporting, and B, a lot less sexual harassment, but it also, everybody knows that it happened. I mean, if the employer thinks that this is under wraps and, "I'm doing my privacy thing by not telling anybody what we did," which employers do say, "Oh, privacy, and we can't tell anybody," everybody knows what has happened, and everybody needs to know that something was done about it. And it doesn't always have to be the person was fired, okay? 

Which gets to individual accountability. In the most egregious cases, the person actually is let go, and if it's a law firm, sometimes what happens is they just go across the street with their clients, leaving the firm to clean up the mess, because now, there is not only somebody who's been harassed, but now, you have ... and particularly because a lot of these people are rainmakers, so you're leaving behind a lot of people who now have no work to do. And in the worst possible case, people are suing employer, and the employer now has to come up with funds to settle these lawsuits. Sometimes, the individual goes off Scott free. 

So, there needs to be individual accountability. We've been looking and talking to a lot of people about the ethics requirements and disciplinary requirements, and that's okay, as far as it goes, but there has to be a lot more thought given to how to make sure that the individual is accountable for what they've done. 

Corrine Parver: 

So, the consequences really aren't just for the individual who was harassed, but to the location of the employment, the place of employment, whether it's even government, or a small firm, or a large firm. The business imperative exists for companies to act properly in informing the employees or partners, but the people in the workplace what has occurred, because the gossip will permeate the institution. People will know, as Cory mentioned, and so the consequences financially and otherwise are of concern. 

Cory Amron: 

But there are also a lot of positive things that employers can do to get ahead of the situation before it gets to that point. So, positive reinforcement for mentoring and for let's say 360 reviews to try to figure out what's going on, to putting in place conversations about what is appropriate, what is not appropriate in this particular organization. I know of general counsels who go, and magic partners, who go around to all of their offices to lead by example and talk about what the culture of the place is. So, positive reinforcement, not just always negative consequences. 

Corrine Parver: 

Two important recommendations that really laid the foundation for the next initiative that came out through the publication of the report and the survey findings, is that we need to come up with a creative way in order to make a shift in the landscape. Not that the teachings and videos for example that companies use to inform their employees about the latest EEOC regs or what has happened from the Supreme Court in cases, what the obligations are, the dos and don'ts, focusing mainly on the don'ts, the recommendations to engage in conversations with primarily, at least initially, with men, to involve men and to have men become active allies for their female colleagues. Out of those recommendations came our Conversations With Men initiative. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. Yes, absolutely, which is I thought just so creative. So, why don't we just, yeah, let's dive into it. Would you like to tell us a bit about it? The initiative is Conversations With Men, and so what does that look like? 

Corrine Parver: 

A good segue into it. 

Rio Peterson: 

Segue. 

Corrine Parver: 

Which is still going. The power of male allyship is, we deem to be, quite significant and crucial, and a lot of the work that's being done in the legal profession on these issues has been done by women, primarily. You'll have a lot of women's initiatives in law firms, women in charge of mentoring and education that really has nothing to do with the practice of law but working in legal employment settings. So, that has been something that we wanted to make sure that we were able to develop an initiative that would address those issues. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, and we did a lot of research just looking at who was doing what and what exactly were they doing in the male allyship space. We talked to some of the experts, people who've written books on the topic, and we convened some thought leaders to talk to us about what we might be able to do. 

We also convened what we called an expert taskforce. We had people on that taskforce like Chai Feldblum, who was an EEOC commissioner. She was the author of the seminal work on sexual harassment in the workplace for the EEOC. Corrine mentioned that our Still Broken survey was spearheaded by Dr. Arin Reeves. We got her also to help us structure these conversations, because we wanted them to be open and honest with prompts and very thoughtful information. 

But we also decided, with the help of that expert task force, that the facilitator should be ... We knew the facilitator was going to be a professional, but we decided that it was going to be a male. We thought that was important because we wanted no barrier to honest conversation. If they wanted to talk about their locker rooms, go for it, okay? 

But we couldn't find a male facilitator that had this expertise. I mean, there's just a tiny handful of these people. So, we paired up a professional facilitator, who was actually a clinical law professor at Harvard of facilitation and mediation, we paired him up with Dr. Reeves, and together with Women Lawyers on Guard, we structured the sessions. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Let's talk a little bit more about those sessions. What did the mechanics of those meetings look like? I know this is still, this project is ongoing. So, how did it start? What was the first couple sessions like? 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, we decided that we would ask our network of women lawyers to nominate men to participate in the focus groups. We sent letters to ... Once we had the information about the men they were going to nominate, we realized quickly that everybody was very enthusiastic and accepted the invitation almost instantly. 

Rio Peterson: 

It's what you planned, right? [inaudible 00:39:46]. 

Corrine Parver: 

Right. So, we convened focus groups of 10 men, and each of the focus groups met twice. They had an initial meeting with the facilitator. We also had a male note-taker who was introduced at the start of the session and then sort of was blank space afterwards, so that we were able to get notes from each of the sessions. 

Cory Amron: 

Anonymous, by the way. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

The people did not know each other, who were in the groups. We made sure that the groups were diverse in every respect you could think, area of the country, legal place of employment, seniority, and the like. 

Cory Amron: 

Race, ethnicity. 

Corrine Parver: 

Ethnicity. Yeah. We tried to over every- 

Cory Amron: 

We had gay guys. We had a disabled person. Yeah. 

Corrine Parver: 

We had professors. We had judges, partners in law firms, general counsel of corporations. So, we had 50 people in the five focus groups. They met twice officially, and the facilitator had a curriculum and encouraged ... Really, it wasn't a lecture type of curriculum. It wasn't professorial. It was a true conversations that were structured over issues of sexual harassment. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right, and so for the first session, they would have a discussion and talk about things, and then what happened in the second session? 

Cory Amron: 

Well, first of all, before they got to the first session, they were told that they should read Still Broken. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. 

Cory Amron: 

We gave them a bunch of resources to look at, but Still Broken was at the top of the list. So, the conversation centered around what was happening and what they had read, what they had experienced, the types of prompts that was structuring the discussion. By and large, these were guys who obviously had ... well, had been nominated, right? So, they wanted to be there. By and large, they were shocked and credulous. They were just like, "Wow, really?" Because again, they were the ones that really weren't seeing it, for the most part. There were some that were working in their places of employment on these issues, but for the most part, these were people who were not seeing it. 

So, in between the first and the second session, they were asked to talk to women in their lives, their relatives, their colleagues at work, their neighbors, whatever, just to ask them, "Just talk to me about sexual harassment." Not were you sexually harassed, but just talk to me. 

To a person, when they came back into the second session, they were blown away. Absolutely blown away. They had no idea that their wife, let's say, this was the way she comported herself, or this is what the experiences that she has seen, or just that part of their life, their lived life. So, they were extremely, very, very impacted by this. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. So, you mentioned that initially, this was two sessions, but that these conversations are still continuing today. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, we had provided the men with some active ally actions that they could take once the two sessions, two conversations were complete, and it was an extensive list of things that they could do. About a dozen or so of the 50 men decided that they wanted to continue the conversations with the facilitator, and they've been meeting now how long, Cory? Over a year. 

Cory Amron: 

Over a year and a half. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah, with a facilitator. 

Cory Amron: 

Every month. 

Corrine Parver: 

Once a month, every month. We are now seriously trying to plan the next cohort of 50 men. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Did it surprise you that they wanted to continue the conversation? 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes? 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah. Yeah. We were constantly getting feedback, whether through the notes from the note-taker or from our conversations with the facilitator, which we held religiously. Some of the discussions also entered into the area of gender discrimination and the role of women in the legal profession, which was fine with us, if the conversations expanded to include that type of discussion. The facilitator always brought the focus back into what are the active ally actions were they engaging it, et cetera? So, they didn't veer too far off of the topic, but they obviously were seeing changes that they were able to impart within their places of employment, and they were just enjoying the comradery that was developed and, "This is what happened to me and my firm," type of discussions. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Cory Amron: 

One thing that I also appreciated and would not have otherwise appreciated was how they talked about the nuances of what maybe ... Like if you were a bystander, and you saw this happening, they brought a lot of that into these discussions and talked over, "Oh, what should I have done?" Or, "What did I do, and was that the right thing to do?" 

Talking about these nuances, I think made them realize that you know, not every situation is the same, and you just don't have one script that you can work off of in every single situation. So, I thought that was fascinating, that they came to that realization and were very, very attuned to not necessarily what they wanted to do, but what the person that was being harassed, I hesitate to say needed, but from that person's perspective, what might the bystander do? 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, what could be helpful or useful in the moment. 

Cory Amron: 

Yes. Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

Which is what led us to develop a Bystander Intervention Toolkit, which we're in the process of finalizing. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, fantastic. I think that's such an important way to help people frame a situation, is perhaps not so much think about yourself in that moment, but how can I be of service? How can I be helpful? And also, the importance of recognizing it's a dynamic issue. There is not a one-size-fits-all solution for every situation, and that's a really powerful tool. I mean, it sounds like it's inspired some pretty tangible, positive change, really, at the end of the day. 

Corrine Parver: 

Right. 

Rio Peterson: 

I'm curious to know, how does that make you both feel? Do you feel accomplished and fantastic about that? Because you should. It's pretty amazing. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. I think the bystander toolkit will really be of help, particularly when these occurrences take place in a group setting. One of the things, the surprising things also that we discovered was that it's not just in a single office with one-on-one interactions. It could happen, and does happen, in group settings. 

So, if you're a fella, and there's five guys around and one woman, and someone makes an untoward comment, how should you react? What are the things that you could say or do in the moment to diffuse a situation or, "We don't talk like that around here," or things like that, you know? "That's very surprising you should make a comment like that," and the like. 

Cory Amron: 

And actually, sometimes they are coming to the realization that the person who's being harassed has it under control and that it's best not to be the knight in shining armor zapping in or whatever, being patronized or whatever. So, that's also an important perspective, trying to discern the difference between those situations. It's hard. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right, trying to navigate the nuances. 

Cory Amron: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Peterson: 

Certainly not a map we're all just born with, so it's very, very important. Oh, that's fantastic. So, we've got the bystander toolkit coming up, where you're working on facilitating a second round of conversations with men. What else is next? Is there more on the horizon for Women Lawyers on Guard? 

Cory Amron: 

Go for it. 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, I don't know that we can talk too much without getting our board approval on that. 

Rio Peterson: 

So yes, but to be coming soon. 

Corrine Parver: 

But I think in the other areas that we're working on, the reproductive healthcare rights, is a never-ending avenue for us to give our assistance. There's been so many court cases that have altered the landscape, and so that is something that's taking up a fair amount of our time right now, as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Absolutely. It's a massive mountain to scale, that one. Yeah. Well, this is fantastic. I know we've got just a couple more minutes left. I would love for you to tell us how people can get involved with Women Lawyers on Guard. Where can they find you? How can they lend their support? 

Corrine Parver: 

That's a wonderful question to end with. 

Cory Amron: 

Well first, if there's anybody who would like to nominate a guy for our upcoming sessions, we would love to hear from them. My email address is C Amron, so camron, C-A-M-R-O-N @womenlawyersonguard.org. So, we'd really love to hear your nominations. 

Corrine Parver: 

And we'd love to have you join us. There is no fee to join Women Lawyers on Guard. The website is www.womenlawyersonguard.org, where you can see all the reports of the work that we've accomplished thus far and also take a look at some of the amicus briefs that we've participated in. That's all online. We would love to have your listeners join our mighty band. 

Rio Peterson: 

And we would love for them to do that, as well, and we'll make sure to put the website and your email, Cory, in the show notes so that if anybody would like to get in touch, they have an easy way to do that, and definitely nominate someone to participate in more Conversations With Men. That'd be fantastic. Well, thank you both so much. This has been really incredible. It's really incredible work that you're both doing, and I'm very happy we got to discuss it today. 

Cory Amron: 

Well, thank you. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. We really appreciate you inviting us. 

Cory Amron: 

Yes, and ALPS has been a stalwart supporter of ours, so we're very appreciative about that. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, wonderful. Well, hopefully once you have the toolkit out and the next round of Conversations With Men, we can do this again, keep the conversation going. 

Cory Amron: 

Sounds good. 

Corrine Parver: 

That's a date. Thank you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, everyone, and this has been episode 83 of In Brief, and we will see you next time. There we go. We're done. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yay. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. Oh, thank you both so much. That was fantastic. 

Corrine Parver: 

I'm glad that you found it worthwhile. Good. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. Thank you for your enthusiasm. It wasn't just like, "Oh, let's see, what's the next question?" 

Rio Peterson: 

Well, it's definitely something I feel is very important, and it hits close to home in a lot of ways. I'm just so blown away just reading through Still Broken and the Conversations With Men. It's just such a fascinating approach, too. The way you've tackled this issue, it's really inspiring. I've really, really enjoyed digging into your work and getting to talk with you both about this. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you, especially because there have been some who have looked at the construct that we're trying to bring forth, which is active male allies, and said that they can't ... not that they can't support the initiative, but they can't use their DEI dollars for it because it doesn't either A, they can't see the obvious impact on women, or B, they can't spend money on something that is just male-oriented. I'm like, "But you don't see the tunnel." 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah, very frustrating. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, it is. It's very frustrating. 

Rio Peterson: 

There's a very larger picture you're not seeing there. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. 

Corrine Parver: 

And for us, the funding issue becomes an issue. It's very important that we can be able to garner sufficient funds to keep these programs going, because we don't have a fee to belong to the organization. So, like what ALPS has given us in contributions has been very important. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right. Well, hopefully we can keep that going, keep that support coming. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you so, so much. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Absolutely. 

Cory Amron: 

Great to see you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great to see you both. So, I will let you know when the episode publishes and we can tag you in the social posts, and get the word out there. Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

Great. Great. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

Great. Thank you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Thank you both so much. I hope you guys have a great day. 

Cory Amron: 

Thanks. You, too. 

Corrine Parver: 

Bye. 

Rio Peterson: 

Bye-bye. 

For those of you that aren't familiar with me, I've been practicing at ALPS, serving in the role of risk manager for over 26 years, and, recently, it's been about two and a half, maybe ... Coming up on. Well, two and a half. Two and a half. I got to think through this. 

I have been blessed to be able to have my wife and I move to Florida, so I'm coming to you from our remote location here in St. Cloud, Florida on a beautiful day. 

I want to continue with some conversations that I've had over the years, and this fits in the category of listening to your life, focusing on some growth issues, and really the purpose of this particular podcast is to talk about how to build, and, perhaps, even more importantly, how to maintain a successful law practice. 

There's a lot written out there on the importance of marketing, networking. I've lectured, and written on a lot of this, myself, and I really don't want to dismiss that. That's very important, in terms of building a practice, as is understanding the marketplace, having all the correct tools. There's lots of things, if you will, on the business side that need to be addressed, and they are very important. 

But the older I get, I continue to discover, and appreciate the value of something else, and it really is what I would describe as the foundation, and foundations in relationships, as an example, and in many aspects of our lives, I've come to learn, are so important, whether that's a foundation ... To become a foundation for your children, as they grow, to have a foundation built on commitment in personal relationships, particularly, in the context of a marriage. It's just something that I have found to be very, very relevant. 

So, I'm going to talk about the foundation necessary to build and maintain a successful law practice, and really what I'm talking about is wellness. I have written and talked for years about how impairment issues are significant, in terms of their role in practice claims, in grievances, and all that, but I'm coming at it from a different angle, and I really do believe that a foundation in the practice of law, a personal foundation, based on wellness is absolutely essential, and fundamental to the long-term success of a successful law practice. 

And I'm going to be, as we talk today, sharing a little bit about myself, and I'm not here to suggest, in any way, shape, or form that I've got it all figured out. I absolutely don't, but I do want to say I'm on a journey, and it is a wellness journey. I have yet to find the end point, if you will, and I mean I remain a work-in-process. 

That's going to be true for me for the rest of my life, because life is a journey, and I guess, at some point, the journey will come to an end, and perhaps, in some way, that's an end point, depending on what you believe, but while we're here, in a physical body, in this wonderful place we call Earth, for all of us, it's a journey, and so I encourage you to consider that, and let's talk about what is important, in terms of wellness, as we go through this journey. 

In my mind, wellness ... This is far more than just about health. Okay? I'm going to talk a little bit about health, but it really is about all aspects of one's life. We need to have wellness in our personal lives, in our professional lives, in our spiritual lives, it just goes on and on. 

And, again, to the degree that we struggle individually with any aspect of wellness, in any aspect of our life, that can create some problems. How do you think impairments arise? If we're not taking care of ourselves, we can get overwhelmed, we can get burned out, we can get depressed, we can turn to alcohol, et cetera, et cetera. I don't want to rehash all that. 

All I'll say is to really stay strong, to stay focused, wellness matters. Let me ask some questions just to set this up. Are you happy in your life? In terms of generally happy. I have days where I'm not happy. Things can be kind of crazy. I've had a rough week, to be honest with you. A colleague recently passed very unexpectedly, and that's been difficult. It's been very difficult. I've gone through some health issues, nothing overly concerning, but some surgery that was necessary, and, let's just say, it was a little rougher than anticipated, so there are normal stressors in life. Things happen, but I would say, generally, I have an overall sense of happiness, an overall sense of fulfillment, an overall sense of purpose. 

Is life stress-free? No, but even the times ... Even good things happening in life can be stressful, so it's about wellness. How do we handle the stress? How are we working through the issues? 

Okay. That's the broad stuff, but let's dig in a little bit, and talk about really what wellness means, if you will, in the practice of law, and talk about why it's important. 

Let me knock it out there, in terms of the first topic, because it's so significant. We do need to set some boundaries. We're not going to really talk about how can we find, and maintain wellness here. We do need to set boundaries, and you hear these discussions all the time, and, honestly, speaking personally, "Well, it's about maintaining balance," and I just ... It drives me crazy. I fail to understand how if we find some balance between two aspects of our lives, that that solves anything, because by even framing it that way, the assumption is that some aspect of your life is unhealthy, and if we bring some other aspect of your life that is healthy into balance with this, somehow that fixes everything, and, no. No. All aspects of your life have to be happy, and healthy. 

And, typically, when we're talking about balance between professional life, and work life, there's this assumption that we're devoting too much time, and things are out of balance, and it's not healthy for us in terms of our professional life, so let's talk about setting boundaries, and we could talk for a long time about all the different ways to do this, but what I really want to say to you, whether you're brand-new in practice, or have been practicing for 50 years, and still struggle with this, sometimes it's important to hear from a fellow lawyer, a fellow ... Someone that gets it with you. 

Life can be crazy, both externally, in terms of your personal life, and professionally. It's okay to take care of yourself. Self-care, self-prioritization is not selfish. It's not saying to your client that, "You don't matter to me." You need to work, to have a life. That's really what we're doing here, so set some boundaries. 

If you work great in the morning, or some people are morning people, some people are afternoon people, whatever time of day is really good for you to knock some work out, protect that. Don't have the phone ringing all the time, and people scheduling appointments. Have some quiet time, and really prioritize that. Stick to it, and give staff the ability, or the permission, if you will, to enforce the time that you set aside. Turn off notifications, don't check your email, et cetera, et cetera. I would schedule some breaks throughout each day, in terms of the work day, primarily, even if it's just 10 minutes now and again to get outside, and get a little sun, to get outside and just clear your mind. 

I have found that to be very effective. Sometimes I just need a mental break, and so I'll go out, and just stroll a little bit, and that can provide clarity. I can problem solve at times doing this, because I give myself permission not to worry about it, and I give myself permission to just go, and be calm. 

So, set some boundaries. On personal time, you don't need to be available 24/7. So, unplug, turn this thing off, get off of the Matrix. That's okay. It's not selfish. It's something you deserve, and it's how you stay professionally sharp. If you're never recharging your batteries, just to even have some time to de-stress and get the work done that needs to be done, or have time to clear your head, it's all good. You have to have that, or the ax is going to get dull. 

So, another thing that I strongly encourage you to do is just invest in your physical health, because, again, boy, I could tell you some stories over the years with all the consulting I've done, and I have worked with more attorneys than I ever thought, who had all kinds of health issues, that were tremendously impacting their ability to competently, in a few situations, serve their clients. 

I literally had to go into one solo practice, at one point, and tell them, "You're done practicing today," and it was not a conversation I was looking forward to, but, at the end of the day, I got to tell you, you know what the response was? Just one of relief. Finally, somebody gave him permission to say, "It's okay. You're done. You can't ..." He was able to acknowledge, and finally just say to himself, "Okay ... It didn't need to be that way. Get some exercise." It improves cognitive function. I mean it really does. Eat reasonably well. All this fast food crap that's out there, we all know that just shoving junk into your body morning, noon, and night, day after day is going to not serve you well. 

You want to try to get a good night's sleep, and just rest. Again, that needs to be prioritized at times. Yes, there will be times, perhaps a hearing coming up, or something, and where some of these things have to go by the wayside a little bit, and that's okay, but you got to get back into the routine. 

As you go through this journey of living, and being an attorney, and serving your clients, you still have to care for yourself. One of the things that I do, and if you've listened to some of my other podcasts, I enjoy tremendously going out, and cycling. I do a lot of cycling, and that is just a place, again, where I can be calm, and where I can just enjoy the moment, and, for whatever reason, it works for me. I love it. Even if it's indoors, at times, you're ... Depending on the hour, and time of day, and weather, I do a lot of riding indoors, and that's where I get some of my best writing in, believe it or not. I put in anywhere between 1500, 2000 miles a year, and it is a great workout indoors, and I just love it. 

Playing tennis is another thing I've taken up, I got back into, after a number of years, but doing it here in Florida, we're very blessed to be near the USTA, the USA's Tennis Association, national campus, and I'll be honest and say, there are many times where I either have a tennis lesson over there, or here at the local courts, meeting with some friends, and playing, I'll tell you honestly, there's a lot of times where I just don't want to go. It's been busy, been a crazy day, and I just, "Ugh." I've never missed, though. I always just force myself to do it, and here's the crazy thing, never once have I regretted going, and I've always had a blast every time. 

So, invest in your physical health. It pays back in spades, in terms of energy, staying mentally competent, still enjoying what you do. If you're out of shape, overworked, poor diet, poor rest, it's no wonder so many lawyers struggle in our profession with just not being happy, and it's not working, and they're just going burnt, because, again, they're not taking care of the physical health. Extremely, extremely important. That's the foundation. It honestly is. 

Prioritize mental and emotional wellbeing. I'm not a mindfulness guy, but I really, really need you to hear the mindfulness movement has really helped so, so many people. Try it out. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, okay. Meditation. You just need to find ways to manage stress, and those are two excellent ways. I have to be honest, and say I've tried them some. I will admit, I've not really gone gung-ho on this, but I'll go back to cycling. For me, that's where I can find calmness. To me, I guess I'd say that's the way I meditate, and it's a very I guess non-traditional way, perhaps, I don't know. I'm not a guru in meditation, but it works for me, so find ways. 

I do need to say, if you feel that you are struggling in some ways with burnout, depression, anxiety is another thing that I have seen recently, in a very dear and good friend, that I'm concerned about, and I do try to listen, and say, "We got to address this. What can I do to help?" 

But if you feel that there's some challenges there, I strongly support, and encourage you trying to find some help, whatever that might be. Visiting with a colleague perhaps, a pastor, a social worker, a psychiatrist, depending on the issue, the answer or solution to this is going to differ, but, please don't ignore that. It's just not worth it. 

On a parallel, or tangent here, please don't minimize the importance too of building, maintaining, and, by that, I mean nurturing, your support systems. They're so important over the years, and, boy, have I come to learn that too, whether it's colleagues, friends, family members, extended family members, your significant other. These are the people that are here for you, and can do wonderful things to help care for you, to be supportive of you, to be a cheerleader for you. 

Of course, the gift is a two-way street. You need to invest in them as well. But isn't that what the journey is all about? What's the point of going through a journey of life without anybody to validate the journey? To go with you? To share the experience? And to, also, have you experience someone else's journey? Again, this is a two-way street. There's more than just one relationship there. 

Let's talk a little bit about the office too. It's important to create a positive work environment, whether that's a home office, which is where I'm sitting right now, or an office, a brick and mortar law firm, but you do need to make it a positive kind of thing. 

I have created a calming space, and you really can't see the whole thing here. If some of you can't listen, over the years, I have ... I'm a Disney person. My wife and I have been members of the Disney Vacation Club for years, and years, and years, and, literally, have traveled a number of places around the world with Disney. Kids were raised Disney. We have a lot of fun. I am in a Disney space. Again, that's calming to me, and it's full of pictures and all kinds of things that are memories. You can see some in the back ... Well, see this side of the background here. There's a Disney cruise ship. There's a photo of myself when I was quite a bit younger with my daughter, when she was a lot younger, on my back, hiking in Glacier National Park. 

There are things that are very special, and memorable. That's a calming positive workspace for me. Let's create a culture of respect, and support among staff, and colleagues, at your firm, assuming you're not just a true solo. Let's encourage open, honest communication, respectful, but we need to talk about if somebody's having a problem, or you're having a problem with somebody, "I can't trust this individual to do things," and you don't want to delegate, or something, we need to work through that. 

On healthy relationships, again, just left alone and unaddressed, really begin to impact the health and wellness of the workplace setting, so let's address that. I would encourage you to engage in continuous learning, and here's an interesting ... Yes. I'm talking about CLE, and maintaining our competency, whether that's through webinars, but maybe networking, and mentor kinds of stuff. It's very, very important to ... You can read up on journals, and publications, and there's all kinds of things that you can do professionally, and I do that, I go to conferences, I present webinars, and there's a lot of learning that goes into being able to present a webinar, or put together a CLE, and I, obviously, attend a lot of CLEs, and that helps keep me sharp. 

But I'd encourage you to go further. The mind needs to stay active, and the mind needs to be stimulated. I'll be honest, and say, at times, the ethics world, which is a lot of my world, and cybersecurity, those are very, very stimulating topics for me, and I love working through hypos, and reading things, and having a lot of fun, and just like, "Oh, how do you solve this?" But, also, I love physics, I love to cook, and so there are this aspect of continual learning, even learning to play tennis, and trying to study the game, how do you position yourself, and what are the tactics on a double score? As an example. 

I got to cook ... I cook a variety of cuisines, Chinese, Mexican, Spanish, the list just goes on, and that, again, helps keep me sharp. So, I think continuous learning is so, so important, so find the things that interest you, that, again, that keep the desire to learn, and to grow alive. That is going to bring out so much more in terms of even just who you are, and how successful you can be in building, and maintaining your law practice. 

Finally, I would say give back. Give back. There's all kinds of ways you can do this, pro bono is a great way. You can volunteer for legal aid organizations. You can mentor. There's a lot that you can do professionally, and just get involved with state bar, local bar, and present some [inaudible 00:24:22] now and again. 

But you can also just give back in so many other ways, whether that's getting involved with any local charity organizations, Boys and Girls of America, being ... Working in a museum, working at a children's hospital. Just the list just goes on and on and on. I've done some of these things over the years with a volunteer thing, National Cancer Institute, and I have worked at a children's orthopedic hospital years ago, as a volunteer. Boy, was that crazy? I learned more from kids that were dying, I am not kidding you, than I have ever learned in any other setting. The professional and personal growth with that experience, I will never, ever forget. 

So, there's just a variety of things, but being able to give back, it feeds and nurtures the soul, if you will. That's my personal experience, and, again, it helps me be the best person that I can be, and I'm always open to growing and learning, because, again, that's the point of the journey. That's the point. 

I guess I have one other thought too. I would encourage you to focus on spiritual as well. I'm not sitting here saying, "You got to go out, and go to church," so many times a month. That's not what I'm getting to, but I do believe there is value in perhaps appreciating just that the gift that you've been given, the gift of having the opportunity to have a life's journey, and the older I get, I can appreciate ... They always talk about this attitude of gratitude, but just acknowledging life's good, and I'm very thankful, and I do feel blessed, and this isn't about placing some God a way ... It's just about this ... I just acknowledge that the journey I'm on, and the life that I've been given is of value, and I try to figure out what my role is with it, what my purpose is, and for a lot of years, I've had to have a purpose. 

I have a purpose. I do. How you answer that, what is your purpose, it may change over time, and it's not always easy, but it's also not that hard. I have been so proud of just the dad that I have been over the years. Did I do it perfectly? Oh, heck no. I assure you, but I've been a really good dad. I really have. 

That's one purpose. I've raised five wonderful, beautiful children. I am very proud of who I am as a husband. I am proud of who I am, as a friend to a number of people, and very proud that they chose to be my friend. I could go on with all this, and it's not important, I'm just trying to give you some examples, but find a purpose, and this whole spiritual side, I think, again, can be so fundamental in terms of grounding ourselves, as we build this personal and professional foundation. 

We need to be strong in character. We need to be strong in knowing who we are, what we have to offer, what we want to offer. I'm trying to say, again, this is how you bring out the best in who you can be, and that will serve you, your support systems, your clients, everybody that you work with, and for, better than anything else I can think of. Marketing, very important, but if this foundation isn't there, the marketing efforts aren't going to work out for the long-term anyway. You're going to have your challenges, and struggles. 

So, I guess I'm going to leave it at that. I hope you have found something of interest, something of value with this soliloquy, and I really would love if any of you have thoughts, and want to share stories, or talk about any of this. Please don't hesitate to reach out. I am a risk manager for ALPS, but that doesn't mean I'm their risk manager. ALPS hires me to be your risk manager, and I'm a support system, and someone that's here just to enter into relationship, so if you ever care to chat, just give me a call, or send an email, we set something up. It's MBass, M-B-A-S-S, at ALPS Insurance, one word, A-L-P-S, insurance dot com. 

That's it, folks. Have a blessed day, and stay strong in the practice. Bye-bye. 

—

Rio Peterson: 

Hello everybody and welcome to episode 81 of the In Brief podcast. I'm your host today Rio Peterson, coming to you live from Chicago. And as we all know, I am the bar partnership strategist here at ALPS and one of your new hosts for the podcast. So today I am sitting down with the fantastic and fabulous Tamara Nash. Hello. 

Tamara Nash: 

Hi. 

Rio Peterson: 

How are you? 

Tamara Nash: 

I'm great. How are you today? 

Rio Peterson: 

Good, I'm fantastic. Better that I get to sit here and chat with you. So we are both attending BLI, the Bar Leader Institute conference here in Chicago. And so we thought this would be a great time to sit down and talk about a lot of, well, all of, or as many as we can, the exciting things that Tam is doing because you do all the things. So yeah, happy to have you. Thanks for joining me. 

Tamara Nash: 

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Fantastic. All right, so let's get started. I would love to hear a little bit more about you. I mean, obviously I know a little bit about you, but our listeners don't. So why don't you tell me a little bit about who you are, what you do, and yeah, we'll go from there. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, I would love to. So those kind of questions always strike a chord of panic. Who are you? It's like, "Well, let me encapsulate my life in this one sentence." I always like to start that with I'm a proud first-generation attorney, born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska, and then transplant to South Dakota, a proud South Dakota young lawyer, but I can only say that for one more year and then I'll be aging out. So I'll go kicking and screaming to veteran attorney status. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Tamara Nash: 

O I guess a quasi veteran attorney status, but... 

Rio Peterson: 

Young veteran attorney. 

Tamara Nash: 

Young veteran attorney. Yes, I like that. We'll bring that term into use. I am the oldest sibling of three. I'm very close with my siblings. I have a brand new nephew and I have a niece. I'm quite obsessed with them. I bring them up any chance that I can get. I was a prosecutor for about eight years and then recently made a transition into academia. I currently have the joy of serving as the director of experiential learning and a lecturer at the University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law. And I am kind of a serial joiner. I really like bar service, so I do quite a bit in the South Dakota State Bar as well as the American Bar Association and the American Bar Association Young Lawyers Division and just try to squeeze in time to read and bake when I'm not doing all of those things. 

Rio Peterson: 

I do all of the things when I'm not doing all of them. 

Tamara Nash: 

Basically, yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And so I think it's incredible that you do all those things. It really just shows that you're so passionate about what you do. And so something I would really love to hear is a little bit about your origin story because I know you mentioned that you're a first-generation lawyer, so that's a really, I think, exciting thing when somebody in your family takes that next step. So I'd love to know more about what inspired you to become a lawyer. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. So I love telling this story. It's something I'm super proud about and something that has always followed me. It's always like a little seed or flower I carry with me everywhere. So I think I come from a family of helpers, a family of people who always want to improve the world, make the world better and have done that in kind of their own little way. But no one in my family ever really went to professional school, ever did anything like this. I mean, my grandfather had a third grade education and started his own business. So I mean, so amazing feat from that, a Black man from Mississippi. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

So extraordinary journey and path that he lived. But my kind of story was inspired by an amazing teacher. My sixth grade teacher let us create a mini society. So we had our own money, we had our own name, we had our own businesses, and one of our classmates had a hot dog stand, which beside the point of how weird and creepy that is, that sixth-graders were selling hot dogs to other sixth-graders, we had a mini society day where some of us were selling... I had a supply store with my friends, they had their hot dog stand, but apparently my friend's classmates thought he wasn't pulling his end of the labor. And so they fired him. 

And my teacher said, "Well, you can do something about that." So our class had a wrongful termination lawsuit and some of us were jury members, some of us served as attorneys. I was his attorney. One of us was a judge. And it just changed something inside of me. It was the coolest thing I've ever done. And my teacher was like, "You seemed to really enjoy that." And so he brought in three Black women to talk to me about what it meant to be a lawyer and what they did every day. And I sat with them in the school cafeteria during the school day and just learned about it. And it planted the seed inside of me of what I could do and what my life could be. 

And I kind of had ups and downs through school. I didn't do very well the whole time. But when I got to college, that dream came to fruition. I took the LSAT, the law school admissions test and was like, "I can do this, and went to law school. And so I went to University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law and the dream of following in the footsteps of helpers and my family kind of came to life. So it all started with a hot dog stand. 

Rio Peterson: 

Did you win? Did you win the case? 

Tamara Nash: 

We did. We did. Yes. But really we were all winners. We were all winners. 

Rio Peterson: 

That's really incredible. It's really a testament to the power that education and certain adults in your life can have to influence and inspire the direction you go. And do you still keep in touch with that teacher? 

Tamara Nash: 

I do. So his name is Mr. Summit. We keep in contact periodically on Facebook. And I very much believe that my journey and my life has been influenced and my trajectory has been changed by people who have intervened and got involved and influenced me in these monumental ways. And he's just one of the several examples of people who've changed my life. And so yeah, I'm so appreciative of him for something that he probably thought was no big deal, but literally changed the course of my life. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I love too that he thought to bring three women that you could relate to and connect with as a woman of color and show you," Hey, this is what you can do." 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

That's amazing. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

It's so powerful. I mean, you have to see it to believe it, and that's what he did. And it just planted the seed that took years to blossom, but when it did, it came with a vengeance. So it's really cool 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. That's a great origin story. 

Tamara Nash: 

Thanks. 

Rio Peterson: 

Was there anyone during your journey through law school and as a young lawyer who also inspired you in that way or pushed you forward? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. So I mean, sincerely mean it when I say I've had amazing mentors who've been pivotal in my life. As a young lawyer, I've had a few mentors who have just been wonderful, who've taught me how to be a young lawyer, how to navigate the profession, how to have empathy, how to have compassion, how to be a professional. 

I had one mentor in particular, I remember it's the summer between second year and third year, everyone's interviewing for jobs. And I remember walking out of that interview and I thought to myself, "Whatever I got to do to work for this person, I'll do it." Just you connect with a person and you just know this is who I am supposed to learn from. And fate aligned that I got that internship and it was with the US Attorney's Office in South Dakota. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, wow. 

Tamara Nash: 

And it changed life. And I'm still mentee with that person, and I still call on them when I want to know what to do in life or what decisions to make. And the coolest thing about it is that person ended up becoming a judge and then I ended up becoming their clerk by happenstance. We both kind of got the same job the next year. And so our lives kind of tracked for a couple paces after that. 

And so that person has been such a pivotal mentor and role model and encourager and champion in my life. And I think that's one thing that makes the South Dakota Bar so amazing is that it's such a close-knit community that I don't know a single young lawyer who hasn't been impacted by an amazing mentor, someone who's been a champion to them, cheered them on, encouraged them, provided opportunities. And I am so fortunate to be not at all from South Dakota, but benefiting from an amazing bar and amazing mentors. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And really the role of mentorship is so important, especially when you're new at something. I mean, whether you're coming into the profession as a young person or even maybe a bit later in life, it can be a very daunting and intimidating thing to be surrounded by all these very intelligent people who know what's going on. So it's really fantastic to know that it is understood that that is such an important thing for people to have that support when they're trying to figure out who they are and where they're going to end up in this profession. 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. And especially as a first-generation attorney where you don't have a parent who came before you who can tell you, "This is what you do when you go golfing," or, "This is how you interact at this fancy lunch." And for someone to just sit you down and tell you these unspoken rules or just to encourage you and remind you, you are here for a reason. 

Rio Peterson: 

You belong here. 

Tamara Nash: 

You belong. Exactly. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

And then just the power of someone saying your name in rooms you're not in, and to help you seek opportunities and achieve and push yourself, it is so powerful and it means so much. So it's really exciting. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And I think there's kind of a theme that I keep hearing when I get to speak to incredible legal professionals. It's that a lot of the legal community is of the opinion that success is not a zero-sum game. There's enough opportunity for everyone, there's enough success, and if we just work together and bring each other up, we're all going to do well. And... 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

... the world I think in general will do well from that. 

Tamara Nash: 

Oh, yes. Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, our whole profession succeeds. One of the cool things is there's a session here at BLI, the Bar Leadership Institute, leadership is a team sport. We all succeed when one of us succeeds. We don't take away from any of us or any one of us. And I believe sincerely that when we dig in and work together to do our joint mission, whether that's serving justice, whether that's a strategic plan, whatever the goal is, we all come out enriched for whatever that is. And that's how my mentors taught me. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes, yes. And so in your role as a teacher and a lecturer, is mentorship something that you speak about with your students and encourage? 

Tamara Nash: 

It is. Mentorship is such an amorphous topic to teach, though. It's so hard to say, "Mentor, find one." 

Rio Peterson: 

[inaudible 00:12:38] right now with somebody. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, exactly. But I do, and I try to bring in folks to come in and guest lecture and different guest speakers and bring in my mentors to demonstrate how important it is. And I talk and try to be open and vulnerable about how I've benefited from mentorship and why it matters and how to find mentors and how to engage with your mentor and how to give back to your mentors because it's not a one-way street either. It's not someone you just call up like, "Hey, Bob, need a job, what you got for me," kind of thing." 

So yeah, we talk about it. And I think it's one of those things that as you grow in the profession, you understand what it means, kind of like I understood the opportunity that my sixth grade teacher gave me much more as I got older. And so I think it's one of those pieces as well. But I think the students really enjoy meeting professionals, understanding what they do and understanding how those connections can continue to be cultivated as they grow in their three years as law students and then much more beyond as lawyers. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic. So you teach, but you were also a prosecutor for eight years? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, about eight years. 

Rio Peterson: 

Was that in South Dakota? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Okay. How did you like it? 

Tamara Nash: 

I loved it. It was very challenging, very stressful, but I loved it. I loved my office and the mission and just the pursuit of justice, it mattered, and it was a very meaningful job to have. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Got it. And so then after your time as a prosecutor, you've now segued into, you work with the South Dakota Bar, you do work with the ABA ,and you teach. What are some of the things that you do with the South Dakota Bar? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, so I have been fortunate enough that as soon as I was licensed, I had folks say, "Come to bar service. Welcome. Welcome." And so I've been involved in the South Dakota State Bar and the American Bar Association pretty much since the time I've had a license. And so with the South Dakota State Bar, I've been on the Young Lawyers Board of Directors. I've been fortunate enough to serve as our South Dakota Young Lawyer Section President. And with the South Dakota State Bar, I am our young lawyer delegate to the ABA House of Delegates. I serve on a few different committees within our state bar, with our law school committee. I also this year serve as chair of our diversity, equity, and inclusion committee. And it's just been really cool to be a part of a state bar and to serve and lead in a state bar that has given me so much and really has been the reason I have a career. So it's been really rewarding. I enjoy it. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And they recognize, they're like, "This woman gets things done. We need her to join the [inaudible 00:15:32]." Yeah, we know obviously ALPS works with the South Dakota Bar, and they're a fantastic group of people. So yeah, it's wonderful to hear too the impact that a bar and participating in your bar can have as well. And, oh, excuse me. Yeah, just the positive impact that can have in helping to push your career forward as well. 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

And helping you to connect with people. And I think also focusing on your passion. It sounds like you're very passionate about supporting young lawyers and helping them navigate the world, the legal profession, and becoming lawyers. I know... I mean, I think it's clear based on your work as well with the ABA, because you are the chair of the Young Lawyer Division this year for the ABA as well, right? 

Tamara Nash: 

I am. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. How did that come about? 

Tamara Nash: 

Oh, that's a windy, twisty turn of fate, truly a fate. And it's been such a remarkable just journey of kind of finding a home in the ABA. I attended my first ABA conference back in 2016 as a member of the board of directors for South Dakota, our young lawyer section. And I say this in all sincerity, although it sounds like a Hallmark card, knew I had found my home and found my people in my first meeting. And so instantly signed up for everything I could and tried to join all the things. And then someone was like, "All right, we'll need to narrow it down. So tell us one thing you want to do." And so I applied to become a scholar, which is a leadership development program at the Young Lawyers Division does each year. 16 young lawyers are selected to participate. And that we kind of lovingly and appropriately call a springboard into leadership. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great. 

Tamara Nash: 

And so that was kind of the first opportunity or segue into the Young Lawyers Division that I did. And after that held different positions as a director and committee leader and on different teams and on different boards. And everything that I did, I just kind of fell in love with the division more and lovingly call the division home, where I've made amazing, amazing friends that have kind of helped guide me through hard life stuff that we all live challenges, career changes, encouraged me as I'm negotiating new jobs, celebrating fun wins in life, and it's just kind of become this professional home that means so very much to me. And so I decided in 2019 to run a campaign, a year-long campaign to be secretary of the division and the successful candidate for that ascends to chair. And so that was four years ago... 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. 

Tamara Nash: 

... which leads us to today... 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. 

Tamara Nash: 

... serving as chair. 

Rio Peterson: 

Well, I would buy that Hallmark card. Yeah, I love that you found that community. You just instantly were like, "Yes, this is where I need to be." And it really shows through all the work that you've done. And I know a project that you have coming up is a summit for first-generation lawyers, which we're very, very excited about. Do you want to tell us a bit about that? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. So I'm so very proud, very excited to be a part of the first-generation summit that we're able to put on. So kind of context of stepping back, we as the Young Lawyers Division have a first-generation initiative. Something that we are incredibly proud of is creating community for first-generation law students and young lawyers. It was a gap that we had that we didn't have a place where we could say, "Hey, this is who I am and this is something I'm proud of, and here are resources to support me." And that is a gap that we filled last year, last bar year. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Tamara Nash: 

And a part of that is creating space where we can come together and be proud of who we are, to bring mentors into the space, to provide resources. And so on April 26th of this year, 2024, we'll be meeting in Houston, Texas to have a summit and really just celebrate that shared identity that I think we've all, a lot of first-generation, I should say, have gone through this transition of it used to be something that you felt, I wouldn't say embarrassed, but maybe felt like it used to be a barrier or a challenge. And now it's a badge of honor. To be a first-generation is synonymous with grit and tenacity and to be someone who perseveres. 

And we'll come together and celebrate that identity and that label. And we'll have high-schoolers there, we'll have college students there, law students, members of the judiciary and young lawyers, and just kind of celebrate that shared identity, build community and have some programming, have some networking breakfast, networking lunch, and really just celebrate who we are and that first-gen status. And we have some amazing partners, one of which is ALPS. We have the AccessLex Institute. And we have some of the Texas Bar Associations that have been fantastic partners, and South Texas College of Law has been a wonderful partner. And so we're just really excited to say, "We're here and we're proud of who we are and how can we help." 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. And I really love that you've included high school students in that as well. And I mean, giving them an opportunity to see the law as something that is viable and it is something they should be considering and that is open to them. And I know you've done work in the past with I think it's Project Destination, right? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. So I love that because I think it's, especially for someone who doesn't come from a family of lawyers, even thinking about being a lawyer is maybe something they wouldn't be considering without someone being like, "Oh, actually you should." 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, 100% 

Rio Peterson: 

"You can do this. This could be you." 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the profound ability to see yourself in someone who looks like you, to say, "I did it. You can do it." And to plant that seed that we know that sometimes can take years to blossom. I'm the example of that, that someone took the time to plant a seed in me, and it took years for me to even think back on that. But once I did, and once life happened and the universe aligned, that seed blossomed. And it's just to take the time to pour into someone, pour life into someone, invest in them and believe in them, and for them to remember to believe in themselves as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think seizing the opportunity to create visibility around, I mean, particularly women of color and showing other young girls of color like, "Hey, this is something that you can do." I mean, I think about media and stuff, it's not often that you see that representation. 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

So connecting with that is so important, even if you don't realize it in the moment. Looking back, just like you said with, as you've gotten older, understanding the opportunity that was presented when you met the those women lawyers. Yeah. It's amazing growing the gardens of tomorrow today. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes, exactly. It's so cool. And I always think even if students never become a lawyer, the impact that you can have is profound. And the ripple effect of the generations you impact afterwards are amazing. And there's a quote that I love of, "You plant seeds today so that generations can live in the shade tomorrow." Something like that, the quote, not precisely. But it's so cool that someone years from now can live the benefit because you put on a 40-minute panel. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Tamara Nash: 

And so it's really so cool and so truly just moving to know that you can change the course of someone's life. And I say that in a way of not like I'm important, but in a way that I've lived it. It has changed my life. And so I know the impact that it can have. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that generational element as well. I mean, maybe if a high-schooler comes to the summit and they don't become a lawyer, but maybe their kid does and maybe their kid becomes president because of it and changes the world. You never know. 

Tamara Nash: 

Exactly. 

Rio Peterson: 

You never know. 

Tamara Nash: 

Or someone becomes a court reporter or they go into law enforcement and then the next generation does something. It can just be so cool. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's very, very exciting. And so that's on April 26th. 

Tamara Nash: 

April 26th. 

Rio Peterson: 

At the Houston? 

Tamara Nash: 

South Texas College of Law in Houston. 

Rio Peterson: 

South Texas. Yes, in Houston. Okay. Fantastic. And we'll talk in a minute about how people can get connected with that. 

Tamara Nash: 

Sounds good. 

Rio Peterson: 

So something I want to ask because I think this is really a theme and overarching theme about what we've been talking about is just inspiring youth and creating and opening those opportunities. So what is some advice that you would give your younger self? I know this is a question you like to ask. Well, I'm asking you, Tam. 

Tamara Nash: 

All right. A piece of advice I would give my younger self is to stay rooted in your passion and your dreams and to trust the process and trust the journey. I think we get very convinced that success looks one way and that the path has to be one way. And we get so rigid and so distracted by other people's definition of success that sometimes we lose sight of our own passion, our own dream, and our own wants for our life. And so I would just remind my younger self that it will work out just as it should and that you can define success for yourself. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, I love that. I feel like that's going to be the title of this episode. I imagine your family's really proud of you, hey. 

Tamara Nash: 

I hope they are. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's great. I love that. I love that advice. And it is so true. I mean, we definitely get wrapped up in this idea that it has to be a certain thing. But that's the great thing about success in this life is that you really get to decide for yourself what is important and how that looks and where you want to take it. And that's a really powerful thing to know. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And I mean, obviously it takes time to learn that, but once you do. 

Tamara Nash: 

It's liberating. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes, it absolutely is. It's like, "Oh, I don't have to fit in this box. That's really awesome." 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's great advice. So tell us how can people find out about the summit? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes. So easiest way to find out about the summit is reach out to me directly. You can email me at tamarapnash1@gamil, tamarapnash1@gmail.com. And I would love, love, love to get you connected to get you there and to get you all the information you might need. 

Rio Peterson: 

Perfect. And we will make sure to put that in the show notes so that it's easy to find and everyone can connect with you. And yeah, we're really looking forward to the summit and I think it's going to be a fantastic success. 

Tamara Nash: 

Thank you. We're excited and we are appreciative of your partnership. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Anytime. We love young lawyers. Yeah, so thank you so much for chatting with me today. This was fantastic. I really enjoyed our conversation. 

Tamara Nash: 

Me too. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Anytime. You come back anytime. 

Tamara Nash: 

All right, be careful. 

Rio Peterson: 

This is just going to be our new show. And then they did a spinoff and it was great. 

Tamara Nash: 

And It kept going. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in. We'll talk to you next time. Have a wonderful day. 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode 80 of ALPS's In Brief Podcast. My name is Rio Peterson. I will be your host today. I am the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS, and I'm very excited to be here, kind of sharing hosting duties with Mark, who will be joining us on a future episode. But for today, you got me, and you've also got with you and myself with Susan Carns Curtiss. Susan, hi. Welcome.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Hi, Rio. Thank you for having me.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Thank you for joining us. So for those of you who don't know, Susan is not just a lawyer, but also the founder of an incredible group called GIRL ATTORNEY. So today, we're going to sit down and chat with her a little bit about her work as a lawyer and her work with the group. And in honor of Women's History Month, we're going to be exploring all of the incredible opportunities and ways that GIRL ATTORNEY has brought women together. So, Susan, do you want to start by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Sure. So I am an attorney based out of Oklahoma City. I am a personal injury attorney, and I handle cases just within the state of Oklahoma related to when someone's injured as a result of an auto collision. I do a little bit of other things, but mostly, if someone calls me about anything else, I tell them where they can find good representation, not from me. I know what I know and I know what I don't know in plaintiff's personal injury and, specifically, auto neg, auto negligence. So that's really my sweet spot, and that's what I'm focused on. That's what I do.

Rio Peterson:

Sick. And I feel like knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know is kind of a superpower, actually. I don't think a lot of people know what they don't know.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And truly, that's one of the most valuable things I've come to appreciate as an attorney, is the value of practicing in an area where you know what your limits are. So you're never going to know it all. And even if the laws on the books haven't changed, how it's applied, it is evolving. There's new fact situations, and people are always looking for new ways to understand how the law applies today.

So one thing, and we'll get to GIRL ATTORNEY later, but one of the most valuable things that I have gleaned from my years of watching women have conversations there is, yes, I should not dabble in anything else, because as they have conversations about nuances and areas of practice I don't have, I realize more and more, "Yes, good to know. Interesting." And it's just affirmation. My comfort level is to stay in my lane.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

No pun intended.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. And being a specialist is a fantastic thing.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Well, yes, focusing on one area of practice is what works well for me. So I can feel confident. Like I said, even when I don't know, I know what the boundaries are, I know what the questions are, and I know it's not a function of, "I just don't know this area of practice well enough." I never want my client to have their case handled by somebody who really doesn't know.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right?

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That's where you want your clients. So my personal injury clients, if they call me about estates, I say, "I love that you trust me with that. I do not trust me with that. So let me find you someone." That's my point.

Rio Peterson:

Fantastic. I love that. I feel like your clients can really trust you to do what's best for them and serve their best interest.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Hopefully. Hopefully.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

So how long have you been practicing law, Susan?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Since I graduated in '06, December of '06. And so, I took the bar early '07 and got sworn in a couple months later when, thankfully, I passed that sucker first try. So that's how long I've been practicing, and very thankful for that. Yup. It's been a bit.

Rio Peterson:

Awesome. What first drew you to law?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Oh, okay. And actually, we did not talk about this ahead of time, so you don't know, but I love telling the story.

Rio Peterson:

Excellent.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I was a juror. That's why.

Rio Peterson:

Wow, really?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I was a juror on a case in Oklahoma, of course. It was a bad-faith case, which is basically when someone sues their insurance company because they believe the insurance company didn't handle their claim properly, and not just a mistake, like, "They did bad. That's why it's bad faith." All right. So I'm a juror on this case, and it was a week-and-a-half-long trial. I, at the time, was working at a flower shop part-time, thinking about, "Maybe I should start my own business."

I checked out a library book for break time during jury duty on how to open a flower shop. This is kind of where I thought my life was going. And over the course of a week and a half, I thought, "Oh my gosh, this is the best show ever."

Rio Peterson:

That's so cool.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Well, I mean, truly, bad-faith cases, it's insurance. It really shouldn't be interesting, but I was fascinated with all of it. So long story short, at the end of that week-and-a-half-long trial, I reached out to the judge, a woman, because I was relatively new to Oklahoma City, and I didn't know anyone who was an attorney. Well, I didn't know any women who were attorneys. So there was a neighbor, who was a guy, who was an attorney. But anyway, I didn't know anybody. And so, I thought, "Well..." I mean, I was just so young, just such a baby, little baby adult. I was pregnant with my third when I was going through jury duty.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And so, I spoke with the judge and asked her, "Hey, can I take you out for lunch?" And she said, "No, but I can host you for lunch in my office." And so, we had lunch, and she was so, so nice. And I've done a little homework. I found out she was a parent. She had children. I've since met her daughter, and she's a lovely person and all this. But anyway, the point is, I thought, "Well, I guess, clearly, she's a successful woman attorney," even though she's a judge, not an attorney.

But anyway, I didn't understand all that. I mean, I knew she wasn't an attorney, but the point is, I was like, "She's a successful woman with a law degree," because I was thinking, "Maybe I should do this." So I met with her. And then after that, I called her back a month or two later and asked her, "Hey, I'm really still curious about this. Could I make your coffee and sweep your floor so I could see more about what happens in a courtroom?"

And I literally did that, and she was like, "Yeah. So I already have people that do that, but you are welcome to come in anytime." So I did. Over the next year, she was so kind. She let me come and watch. We'd sit and talk about things after they happened out in the courtroom. I mean, it was nothing that was even on the other side. I know she didn't cross anything since she wasn't supposed to.

But she would let me hash out my questions about, "Why did it look this way?" or "Why did they handle it this way? Why didn't they do this?" and then her two cents on it. It was just a really amazing experience. She actually also would let me read the briefs that had been submitted to her. Again, all public record, but it was a unique experience. She'd say, "Why don't you go read this stuff and let me know your thoughts on how you think I should rule?"

I know nothing. I was like 0% helpful to her. She was just being nice to me. But it did really get me interested in being a lawyer and being a litigator, and grew my appreciation and my understanding beyond that of being a juror, because that was clearly a front-row seat to what litigators do, but getting to have a better feel of what happens up until and what might potentially even help resolve a case without a trial.

Anyway, so yeah, a year and a half later, I was on a jury in June of '02, again, pregnant with James, my youngest. And then in the fall of '03, when my son was nine months old, I started law school. So I had three kids. And yeah, it was incredible.

Rio Peterson:

That's so cool. That's so cool. And really, kudos to the judge. Sorry, what was her name?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I didn't say. Her name is Nancy, Nancy Coats.

Rio Peterson:

Nancy? Yeah. Well, kudos to Nancy for really nurturing your curiosity and providing that vehicle for you, really, that ability for you to explore and dive deeper into that. That's a really incredible story. Have you kept in touch with Nancy at all?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Oh, yes.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm the president of her fan club. Wait, she doesn't really have a fan club. But yes, we absolutely have, and it's so sweet. In fact, she just got honored a few months ago, and she invited me to sit at her table. Right? I was her guest at this thing.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, that's wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So that is the long story short as to our relationship.

Rio Peterson:

Gorgeous.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Absolutely. She has maintained a relationship with me and invested in me, and she tells me all the time how proud she is of me.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And it's funny. And actually too, another fun, crazy thing about this: The defendant in that bad-faith lawsuit, we found in favor of the plaintiff as against the defendant. The defendant was Mid-Century Insurance Company, which is a subsidiary. I may not be using the right word. But basically, they're under, and also, they are a Farmers Insurance company.

Rio Peterson:

Got it.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

When I graduated law school, my first litigation job was with Farmers Insurance.

Rio Peterson:

Was it with Farmers?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

That's great. What a small world.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Oh, yeah. So small. My eventual boss, I mean, technically, he was a colleague. He wasn't really my boss. But he had decades of experience on me, and we both worked at Farmers. He was my boss in my mind. He was on the stand for four or six hours of this trial.

Rio Peterson:

That's incredible.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Crazy. And they did know. They did know. Yeah. But they still hired me. And we entered a verdict against Farmers for, I think it was 2.1 million.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Anyway, at any rate, it wasn't like chump change. It was real dinero. Anyway, but yeah, that's crazy. It is crazy, but it is true. That is how I ended up in law school. I just was a fascinated juror, and did homework that just made sense to me. At one point, Judge Coats said to me... I don't remember now if it was weeks or months or years into it, but she, at one point, said to me... And this did stick out. She said, "It took a lot of guts to reach out to a judge."

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if someone would've told me it takes guts to do this, I would not have done it." It just made sense to me. I was just like, "Who else am I going to ask? I don't know any women attorneys. This is the one woman attorney I've ever been exposed to in this city or state. I might as well ask her."

Rio Peterson:

Did you?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So, yes-

Rio Peterson:

It seems like she would know.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

... I had no idea. I just was a desperate person for information, and she was nice enough to respond. So yeah, it is kind of funny how, looking back, I accidentally did things just by following my nose that led me to the right place to be at the right time. Yeah.

Rio Peterson:

Wow, that's such an incredible-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm very thankful.

Rio Peterson:

... origin story. I really love that you reached out and that she received, and here you are. It's really incredible. And I think that that's also a really good, possibly, segue into how you came to found GIRL ATTORNEY, because I think there's a lot of parallels with women lifting each other up and helping each other kind of get further and move forward. So tell me a little bit about how GIRL ATTORNEY came to be.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I worked at Farmers for a few years, and I had a great experience. My colleagues were great. The company was good to work for. Our clients as lawyers were the insureds. And I was in an office where it was very clear, my loyalty was to my client, not the person who paid my check, because you can see how that could be an issue. And all I can say about the office I was in was, is there was never a question. Never. Your loyalty, your obligation is to our insured, not to Farmers.

And it's rare anything came up, but I never felt like there was a pushback when there was something. Anyway, so great experience, but I was 13... 12 or 13. I can't remember. I think it was 12, maybe it was 13, jury trials, three-and-a-half years into doing the work with Farmers, and I started to feel a tension about whether or not I have been given this opportunity to go to law school to save an insurance company money.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Again, I worked with great people. You need to have good, nice people on both sides that will advocate hard for their clients. So I always took a lot of pride in the work I did, but I would often get verdicts for zero for the plaintiff, or very little for the plaintiff, which, by the way, my clients loved, the adjusters loved, Farmers loved. I was not loving myself as much as each trial went on. I thought, "Oh." I mean, you win one, two, three, or four, and you're like, I was anyway, "I'm a killer. I am so good at this. Oh, I'm a boss. People love me."

Okay. But eventually, this is happening over and over and over and over, and I thought, "I mean, I know I'm just doing my job. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'm just trying to get the impression that the system is slanted in favor of my position on the civil side." And that was my experience. That is not always the case, but it just ended up being my experience.

And so, I was this many. I was at least a dozen trials in, and I had gotten one verdict total. It was my second trial, where a verdict was more than our last offer. But everything else was a zero or it was less than our offer. And so, it's a win. I mean, that's how they calculate a win. So even if it's a plaintiff's verdict, if it's real low, then... If it's lower than our last offer, it's a win.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I started feeling like this wasn't the long-term career for me, because I wanted to be able to go and fight hard on behalf of my client, respectfully, but hard and focused. And if I somehow accomplished more than maybe I meant to, I could still be excited. Right? Instead, I was like, "Oh, man. I zeroed him out again." Like, "Thank you. Thank you. Adjusters love me." But I just wasn't enjoying it, because I thought, "Some of these people really should be getting something, and they should be getting more."

And so, it was around that time, a lawyer from the other side reached out and asked if I would be willing to switch to the plaintiffs' side. So long story short, I ended up doing plaintiffs' work, and that's when I came to find out or more clearly understand that there are so few women that do plaintiffs' personal injury work.

Rio Peterson:

Oh.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I mean, even my own experience, every jury trial I had was against a guy.

Rio Peterson:

Ooh, interesting.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

There are very few women that do plaintiffs' personal injury work. So it was going to trial lawyer conferences and having... Occasionally, I did. I had bad experiences, and somehow connected to the fact of being a woman among... three women among 100 men at a conference. Right? So sometimes bad things happened, but really no worse than what anybody experiences out there as a woman in a profession, period.

Rio Peterson:

Being a woman in the world is-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It happens.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And not in a passive way, but just to say there's just like... That was the norm. That's a baseline. But also, I would have people just being polite, saying, "Oh, so whose wife are you?"

Rio Peterson:

Oh, yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right? They're not even trying to be a jerk.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But I was constantly expressing to people that, in one way or the other, "Oh, I actually belong here. Oh, so anyway, funny story, I'm one of you. I hear you. I don't have that bonus body part, but this is news to you. This is not a reason to assume I'm here as a spouse." Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. "I assure you that I can be here."

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But all that to say too, these are people who are not trying to be ugly. They were trying to be polite to somebody's spouse. But it's just these culture norms, and living and then now working in a very male-dominated space is what led me to look for a space online. I literally looked for it in the back of a room at one of those conferences. I was like, "Now I'm getting on my laptop looking for something. There's got to be something out there."

And, of course, there's women's bar associations, and they are awesome, and there are organizations for networking for women professionals in general. But I couldn't find something across the US that was a community for women attorneys. And maybe it existed, but I couldn't find it. So anyway, that is really the shortest version of the GIRL ATTORNEY origin story. I was looking for a place, and then I created a space where women attorneys could be a part of it, and no one would say, "Yeah. I'm sorry, do you belong here?"

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Yeah. "Is your husband coming to the meeting? Should we wait for him?"

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. "Who's endorsing you today? Who's sponsoring you?"

Rio Peterson:

"Who vetted you?"

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes. But that led to me starting a Facebook group, and this was in 2016. I really did, at that point, only imagine... No, it's '14. Anyway, whenever it was. Whenever I started it, I imagined... It was on Facebook, and it was before a lot of law firms even had Facebook business pages.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I imagine today, I say it's kind of like people who have... TikTok feels like, "Well, that's for younger people." I can say that because an old person. And kudos to all the people who are in their 50s and older, and they are rock stars on TikTok. I'm like... But it feels foreign to me, right?

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And so, when I created this group on Facebook, I imagined it would be a social space. I never imagined what it became. And that's really a sweet testament to what the community is, which is, it's very organic. It's what the women bring to the group, which allows other women to receive from the group. But yeah, it started as just a social... I added, I think it was just under 50 people.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

"Hi, everyone. You're all my Facebook friends who are lawyers. I know all of you." I literally did this. "I know all of you, but you don't necessarily know each other. So I'm just thinking, if you want, you can introduce yourself, and you're welcome to invite other women." And that's how it started. So that was 50-something women.

And then about a week later, there were 1,000 women in the group. And then within a few weeks, people started asking practice questions. Kind of like if you walked down the hall and you asked the lawyer at the other end of the hall, "Hey, how would you file this?" or "Have you ever filed one of these? Do you have a template or a go-by that I could look at?" Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

People started asking those questions. And sorry, I'm going on a little bit.

Rio Peterson:

You're great.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But anyway, so that... Okay. And people were saying, "Hey, I woke up at 3:00 AM with a sick kid. I've got a docket in such and such county." There's a call. Their docket call... "Is anyone possibly going to be there already who can answer for my case and let them know XYZ?" And otherwise, total strangers were saying, "Yeah. I'm going to be there. Happy to help." Right?

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I know, right?

Rio Peterson:

Like a very organic process.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yup.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That led to somebody saying, "Hey, can we get a separate group for just our state?" And I think that was Texas. And so, I started a Texas group. And then, of course, I'm based out of Oklahoma, so most of the women were in Oklahoma. I started a separate Oklahoma group. But that original group is the one that we call GIRL ATTORNEY - NATIONAL now. And so, that's just because sometimes things are federal questions or it's something that you really just...

I encourage people, if they're going to join a state group, to also join the national group, because sometimes people will ask a question, "Oh, I'm looking for an attorney in Tennessee," because they think, "Oh, I don't need to join the Tennessee group." They don't need to join the Tennessee group. But if they do, they're going to get 30 people answer their question, as far as if they need a referral, or if they need a question, they asked.

In the national group, though, it does give sort of a clearinghouse for just addressing whomever, because it's not a state-specific question, or you're just asking, "Hey, does anyone know anyone in this other state?" that they'd recommend, or raise your own hand. So that's how it happened. And now, just recently, just within the last week, we confirmed we're over 37,000-women strong.

Rio Peterson:

That's incredible, because I think when we talked a couple weeks ago, it was like 34-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Close.

Rio Peterson:

... or it wasn't too long.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

36.

Rio Peterson:

34.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It was 36.

Rio Peterson:

But still, it's incredible. I mean, it started with just 50 people being like, "Hey, you guys, maybe we could chat." And now you have 37,000 members, and you have chapters in, what, all 50 states, I believe. Isn't it?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Okay.

Rio Peterson:

Oh my God.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I have a group for every state on Facebook. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the Vermont group. Okay?

Rio Peterson:

Well, come on, everybody. Anyone listening from Vermont, let's go.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. And it really is interesting. It just happens organically. What typically happens for a group to hit the ground running, all the groups have existed now for a few years, but for a group to just take off, it usually... And this is by observation. I've never asked anybody to do this, but this is what happens. One person in a state decides to do what I did with the first group. They add not one or two people, but they literally invite 50 friends, and they're like, "Hey, ladies, this is a space we can use."

Rio Peterson:

Right. Oh, that's interesting.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

"Introduce yourself to each other." And whenever that has happened, it has just taken off from there, and it's just sweet. And there are some states... Let me give a good example. Ah, golly. Well, I won't name names, but there are some states where I swear all the people who are in the group are people who went there to say, "Hey, I'm looking to refer a case to someone in the state for a family law issue." And no one's there to answer their question. Right?

And so, now we've got five or six or eight people in certain state groups where the only people in the group are people who are like, "I would like to hire a lawyer here." But there's no one in the state who's been added or found their way there yet. So it is interesting. I feel no urgency. Technically, it is GIRL ATTORNEY, LLC, but I don't charge for membership. It's more or less run in terms of the members as a nonprofit.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Now, I'm not speaking as someone who does nonprofit law, so don't misunderstand that as like a legal term. I'm just saying there's no membership fees. There are no boards. I think the value is not creating yet another organization to ask for your time or money. Right? Nobody needs that. There are ample nonprofits. There are wonderful, professional, your bar associations, whether it's the state bar for everybody or a women's bar, or the plaintiffs' bar, the defense bar.

All those organizations already exist and provide great opportunities for leadership, education, and I like to add to that. I like to support what the bar associations are doing. I try to follow as many as I can on social media. I repost their events into the groups. But we're here to support women helping women. That's what I do. The no-fee is also partly based on my desire to create a space where, whether someone has had their law school paid for, they have no debt, and maybe they're going straight into big law. I mean, good for you, girl. Go get it. That gal's got plenty of extra dinero. And if I charged whatever a year that she thought it was worth, she can and hopefully would pay it. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But there's also women who've graduated with a mile-high pile of debt and who are in public service work. And guess what? If I charged $5 a year, I mean, is it worth it? Yes. It would absolutely be worth the $5, but it would also be a reason somebody said no, because they're like, "That is technically not necessary, so I'm not going to pay it." And I want everybody to be in there regardless of their economic situation and also regardless of their connections in the legal profession, because many women come from legal families, and there are plenty of women who do not.

And they don't have the connections. They don't know who's who in their state, in their city, and the GIRL ATTORNEY community helps provide access to them. There are partners in law firms in the very same Facebook group as the brand-new associate. I love that. And when I see partner so-and-so post a meme, and her associate gets to laugh at it with her, I'm like, "That's kind of like passing the woman in the hallway and giving her a high five."

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Who gets to do that? Law firms can be very not chill.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So this creates a space where they can help each other. Also, this associate gets to contribute to questions, pick up cases, and it's potentially an opportunity for that partner to see this gal going and getting it done. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So it's just a way to facilitate connection and, hopefully, elevate women in the profession, which helps elevate the woman in her community, which helps her help her own family, and make a difference... Well, I guess I sort of did that backwards. I mean, really, ultimately, I want her to be helped individually, professionally, and also, it impacts her ability to help her community, and it helps everybody.

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely. And something I really, really love about this and about the GIRL ATTORNEY community is that success and opportunity is not a zero-sum game. There's enough for everybody.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

And I really feel that just how GIRL ATTORNEY has evolved and grown is really testament to the fact that there was a major need for a community where women feel equal, where they feel seen, where they don't feel embarrassed about asking a question, or where they have opportunities to connect with each other on an equal footing, is really incredible. And I'm so excited. I'm so excited that it just keeps growing, and that women keep connecting, and that it keeps just building. It's fantastic. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm thankful.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. I mean, I hope we all are, because it's great.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yeah.

Rio Peterson:

And so, I know we've got just a few more minutes left here, but I did want to talk about some of the people and experiences you've had through GIRL ATTORNEY and through building this. Now, I know that you put on a conference just before the great pandemic.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

And so, I know you've gotten to connect with some pretty incredible people. Can you tell me maybe who was someone that really stood out to you or a moment that really made you feel like, "This is a really good thing that I'm doing and building"?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Okay. I've got two answers to that question. One, I have to give explicit props, express my admiration and appreciation for the role that Judge Coats had in facilitating the conversation, which led to the opportunity. Right? So that was, for sure, a difference maker for me. I have no idea if she would've not been willing to make time in her schedule to meet with me. Maybe I would've never taken those next steps.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And then, otherwise, I can say broadly just the fact that I get to see all these women helping each other, and making each other laugh and encouraging each other. So without singling any one person out, just to say, that has really made an impression on me. Okay. I have a theory. I'll try to be as quick as possible.

Rio Peterson:

Okay. I'm ready.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So we have heard for years that women are hardest on women. And I will tell you, one time, we had a situation in Oklahoma. It was a few years ago, and it's a good story. But the point is, on the other side of... They had the teacher walkouts. There were a ton of teacher walkouts in maybe '17, '18, I can't remember which year, across the US.

And in Oklahoma, we had... There was a woman in the GIRL ATTORNEY Oklahoma group who said, "Hey, who wants to go down and support the teachers?" I'm thinking, "We'll go down on Friday, if anyone's interested." Well, a whole bunch of people were like, "Yeah." Long story short, yes. A lot of people said yes. And this lawyer then posted on her social media, something like, "We're going to be there, legislators. You're on notice, and you'll know us when you see us. We'll be the women in black."

And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I just love that." Assertive, right? But she just threw the gauntlet down. Funny story. Then she goes to take a shower, and her husband's knocking on the door of the bathroom. He's like, "Did you post something on our social media page?" Because the post blew up. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So we ended up having about... Gosh, I don't want to exaggerate. Well, we had hundreds, maybe a couple hundred, I can't remember now, women from all over the state that showed up. And by the way, men who covered their dockets so that they could be there that Friday. Right? Super sweet. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So we show up, and this all was facilitated. It was not the group that organized it. It was a woman in the group who asked, "Hey, anybody else want to do something about this?" Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And people were like, "Yeah." So this question was asked on a Thursday. By Sunday, we're being interviewed by CBS Nightly News.

Rio Peterson:

What?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I know. It was insane.

Rio Peterson:

Incredible. That's incredible.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It was insane. Women on Sunday night were like, "Hey, should we have tables out there to pass out things to teachers tomorrow morning?" And by Monday morning, at 5:30 in the morning, there were three tables donated, brought, and set up. Someone had a tent. We had cookies to pass out. We had gas gift cards to pass out. And here's the thing: No one was in charge of this. It was women going, "Well, I could do this. I'm going to go do that."

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It didn't need to be cleared through anybody. It wasn't like we're looking for volunteers to do. It was just women thinking, "Here's the situation. I could contribute this way." One person thought to call the bar association and ask, because it's right next to the Capitol, if we could organize there, and they said, "Oh, yes. You can come and organize, but don't park in our parking lot." Okay. It didn't even occur to me.

So we all show up, because, again, I'm not in charge. But in the end, we were a visible group in support of the teachers. Laws don't change because a bunch of people show up on one day. It's just not the way it works, unfortunately. But we were able to show up in force. We get there. I get word that there's a local high school band that heard we were going to be marching from the bar association to the Capitol and wanted to lead us in.

Rio Peterson:

I love this.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I was literally in that moment when they were like, "They're all here." I'm looking over, and there's literally... It's the Norman High School Band. And I think there's two bands here, so I don't remember which one. But anyway, they're there, and I am like, "Oh." I'm like, "No, no, no," because I'm not like the, "You'll see us, the women in black." Right? Someone else said that. I did show up in black, but I also was just stressed. Right?

I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, it's not about us." And even in that moment, they're like, "Oh, we're here to do this." And I was like, "No." I started to say no, and I thought, "No, but it isn't about you. It's about the teachers, and it's about this band. They also want to participate. We all want to be here and show our visible support for these people."

Okay. On the other side of that, this is getting to my point, I heard more than one person say, "See? Look what happens when women help women." And I couldn't help but think, Rio, I don't think any one of those women were pushing down their natural inner bitch.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Believe me if you need to.

Rio Peterson:

No.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But I do not think that anyone was not being themselves.

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I thought, "Wait a minute. What if that narrative is, 'I understand. There's competitive people in the world who are very unpleasant. They are both male and female'?"

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I think based on what I observed, because I was like, "Wait, wait, wait," this is incredible. All these women, nobody was asked to do anything, but they all were now operating in a space where clearly what they wanted to contribute was going to be received. And look what happens when you create a space where women get to lead.

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

They get to follow their own lead, their heart, their mind, use their experience, their access, their connections. Guess what happens? A really wonderful, beautiful thing. When we came around the corner, the band, the teachers cheered. They felt loved. They were literally crying. We're crying, they're crying. It was a powerful thing. And all of it happened because there was a space where women got to trust themselves and do what was next. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I was like, "Oh my gosh, this really makes me wonder. This whole narrative of women who are attacking women, who created that narrative?" It would've been, in my opinion, the dominant society, quote, unquote, "society," of whatever fill-in-the-blank business culture that now, a few decades ago, not that many decades ago, maybe five decades ago, started allowing a woman. Oh, now we have two women. It must've been quite the spectacle, right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And whether you're the first or the second woman, you're not the majority. And the people who are observing are telling the story of what's going on, and they basically pit these two people against each other-

Rio Peterson:

Yup. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

... or maybe there's three, or maybe there's four. And I have a suspicion, with zero data to back it up, that this whole narrative of women are fighting women is because they were pit against each other, but not because women fight women.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Right. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

What do women do? Look at the bathroom in the bar. That's what women are, right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

They're like, "Girl, you got this. He is not good enough for you."

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That's who we are.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I'm not saying that men can't support each other. It's not a contrast. It's not a zero-sum game. Right? Like some people, "We're the gender who's nice to people." Not that. I'm just saying, this narrative is wrong.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I saw it in this microcosm from Thursday to Monday. I was like, "What even just happened? What just happened?" And then in the years since, I just get to see it every day in the community.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It's the most delightful, amazing, kind of sacred thing. And I just hope I don't screw it up. That's really my goal. That, and I don't want to get hit by a bus and not have a succession plan. That's my other big problem right now.

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm like, "Oh, I don't really have a structure. I oversee this space, and what happens if something happens to me?" I really got to get that in order. Right? But anyway, that's what we do. That's what it does.

Rio Peterson:

It's incredible. It's incredible.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It's women helping women.

Rio Peterson:

It really seems to me too, to your point, about competition between women. What better way to keep women from succeeding than to pit them against each other?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Absolutely.

Rio Peterson:

It's the thinking that they have to compete with each other for a seat at the table, when in reality, we need to just maybe make that table bigger, and then that makes room for everyone.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And, of course, we're talking about GIRL ATTORNEY, and it's about women, and it's Women's History Month. It also was just Black History Month.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And, of course, there's all sorts of faces where, similarly, if you're not the dominant culture, you are pit against each other.

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yup. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I don't want to equate like, "Oh, because I am a woman, it's kind of like being a Black person." No, no, no, no, no, no. No. I do not have that same experience. But I would be remiss to say, "Hey, women are really left out. Women have been pit against each other," without saying, "Hey, look, that is a thing." And then if you also are not a white woman, which, if people are listening to this and not watching it, I'll tell you, I'm a white woman.

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And so, I have only that. But that's another reason why access is so important to me in the groups, because I think it's important that the space invite everyone in, because if you're not white and you're a lawyer, male or female, you're a minority in the space.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

You are.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right? And then there's sexual orientation. There's so many ways that you can be basically pit against other people and made to feel that you're not a full member. You're not a full member.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So this all started because of my experience just being a woman. But the more I learn about the experience I have had and what I feel, the more strongly I feel about broadening that welcoming experience to anyone who has been made to feel that they don't... "Oh, wait. Why are you here?" That they aren't actually a full member, just because they don't look like the dominant. So first, we've got white men, and then we've got white people. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And it goes out from there. But it's so important to me that the group be a welcoming place for everybody, and everybody has access to everyone.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Level playing field.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. It's really inspiring, Susan. Really, this has been such an incredible conversation. I had no idea about supporting the teachers, and just the depths that this community has, I guess, explored and is starting to explore, and how open it is to anyone, regardless of experience, background, where you came from, what color you are, sexual orientation, anything. We need more of that in this world. And so, it's really fantastic that you're creating that, and I think that's a pretty incredible thing.

And not only that, but making space for it. Not just to be the thing that you started, but to be something that all women have a hand, all members, and everyone who's part of it has a hand in building and crafting and making their own. That is a really special thing, to be able to make space for others to claim it as their own as well.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I hope so.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, I'm going to get weepy. I'm getting weepy. It means a lot. It really does. It means a lot. So I know we've run over time. I think we could probably just talk about this forever. But maybe let's wrap up with, can you just quickly tell everybody where they can go to join GIRL ATTORNEY, and how they can find out more? Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So all of the groups are... There's two things. There's a website, girlattorney.com. Also, if you go to boyattorney.com, it goes to girlattorney.com.

Rio Peterson:

Wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

LOL. But anyway, and from that site, it will tell you how... It tells you more. Alternatively, and there is a directory that you can register for on the group, on the website, and that gets you on the newsletter, stuff like that. But alternatively, if you do have to be on Facebook, so you got to deal with Mr. Zuckerberg-

Rio Peterson:

On the book of faces. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yeah. Yeah. If you can get past that hurdle, and you are on Facebook, then the fastest and easiest way to get to any of the groups is to go to the GIRL ATTORNEY, LLC Facebook business page.

Rio Peterson:

Okay.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

On that page, there's a tab somewhere that says, "Groups." You may need to go to the one that says, "Other." And under Other, you'll find groups. But from the business page, there's a tab that says, "Groups." And under the groups, every single one of the groups is listed with a button there, the Facebook button, where you click to join. You'll need to answer a few questions. And once you have answered those questions, I'll get alerted, and I admit you.

And then from there, you can request to join any other group. And it's basically automatic because of the way Facebook has set it up, that once you've been admitted, cleared for one GIRL ATTORNEY group, you're automatically approved to any other. It's usually, you just request and you click Refresh after being admitted to the first. So that's it.

Rio Peterson:

Perfect.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And then you can help, be helped-

Rio Peterson:

Fantastic.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

... et cetera, et cetera.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wonderful. Oh, that's so fantastic. Well, this has been great, Susan. Thank you-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Thank you so much for your time.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing and telling us about this really exciting kind of group that you built and just grown. Yeah. And I hope many more people join, and it just continues to grow and create space for everyone.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Me too. Me too. Thank you so much again. Really, it's an honor. I appreciate you so much.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, thank you. I appreciate you too, Susan. All right, everybody. Well, join us next month or next week. I guess we'll see. We've got a couple new podcast episodes coming out pretty soon here. But otherwise, have a fantastic day, and we will see you... Well, you'll hear us soon.

Transcript: 

Rio Peterson: Hello, everybody, and welcome to this month's installment of In Brief. This is episode 79, and I am your host for the first time ever, Rio Peterson. I'll be joining you, hopefully more frequently in a rotation on the podcast, and very much looking forward to it. So this month is Insurance Careers Month, and so we thought it would be really, really appropriate to speak to the two people here at ALPS, who really make sure that people can have careers at ALPS and bring us new talent, and really keep the lights on and run all the things. So I'm going to be talking to Liesel Brink and Amber Kuhlman. Kuhlman. 

Sorry, Amber. So Liesel, do you want to start by introducing yourself, telling us a bit about who you are, what you do here at ALPS? 

Liesel Brink: Sure. Thanks so much, Rio. This is an exciting opportunity. So I am your manager of HR and payroll coordinator here at ALPS Insurance. Do everything from hiring, recruiting, all the way to payroll. 

Not to take any of this under from Amber, I can't do it all on my own. I've been with ALPS for, it's going on nine years, and yeah, been a great time so far. 

Rio Peterson: Awesome. How about you, Amber? Tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. So I'm Amber. I'm the HR generalist here at ALPS Insurance. I've been here a little about year and a half now, but in my role, I focus more on the onboarding, recruiting side of things, but I also participate and help out all things wellness with our employees, so that's great. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, that's right. You kind of run things on our Employee Wellness program, which I will speak from experience, is an incredible program and definitely a major perk of working here. So thank you both for all your work and for putting that together for us. It's really fantastic. So we're kind of taking some time to explore careers in insurance this month. 

I don't think necessarily, an industry that a lot of people wake up when they're like five or six, and they're like, "Ah, I want to work in insurance," but so I think it's really important that we can take some time and kind of explore what we do and all of the incredible kind of opportunities and possibilities that exist when you do choose to pursue a career in insurance. So I'm really curious to find out kind of from both of you like, "What was your life before ALPS? What did you do? What was your world before that?" 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, I can start off. It definitely wasn't insurance. This is my first job in insurance, but prior to coming onto ALPS, I actually came from retail sales, so very different. It's a great learning opportunity, working with individuals, helping them find what they need, but definitely enjoy the insurance side a lot more. Love the stability within insurance. 

Everyone needs it for a variety of things, whether it's car insurance or attorney's liability. So I love that aspect, and we have a lot of opportunities at ALPS as far as diversity within our department. So there's Liesel, myself and HR, but there's also business development folks in sales. We have our claims attorneys, account management, maintaining our policies, and everything else you may need from finance all the way to the C-suite, so it's great. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. Fantastic. And Liesel, what about you? Where were you at before you found your way to ALPS? 

Liesel Brink: So before ALPS ... I mean, how much time do we have, Rio? 

Rio Peterson: We've got a couple minutes. 

Liesel Brink: Yeah. So I've been doing HR for about 25 years, and in the last, ooh, 12 mostly in HR, previous to that, nonprofit work, and many people know in a nonprofit, you become a jack-of-all-trades, right? 

Rio Peterson: Absolutely. 

Liesel Brink: You do a little bit here, do a little bit there, and that's where I started in human resources, HR, people operations. So for me, what really resonated were employee benefits, and so being able to talk with individuals about what truly they get with the benefit and having that understanding come to light is what fulfills me the most in my role. I not only worked in a nonprofit, but I too did some retail, but it wasn't retail-retail, it was concessions, some more food. Sorry about that, Amber. That was a really long stint. 

And then, I also worked for a third-party administrator, which is insurance adjacent, and then from there, came to ALPS Insurance. I did do three years as a paralegal assistant. Learned a lot. Not sure I'd go back, but who knows? Someday, maybe. 

Rio Peterson: You never know. You never know. 

Liesel Brink: Exactly, exactly. But yeah, that's kind of my journey in the insurance world, mainly having the most excitement and fulfillment from the employee benefits side. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, got it. Fantastic. So how did you two find your way to ALPS? Was it sort of like serendipitous? Did you seek it out? 

Yeah, I'd love to hear. Maybe Liesel, we'll start with you. 

Liesel Brink: Yeah, sure. So I was actually headed back to the university for a degree in computer science, and I received a phone call from an acquaintance at a local company, and they shared with me, "Would I be interested in considering?" And at the time, ALPS wasn't sure what they were going to fill this position as. They needed a payroll person, and so I decided, "You know, I'll have that conversation with Chris Newbold," the Chief Operations Officer. "I'll just talk to him, and nothing's going to come of it." 

And then, four interviews later, I was made an offer and decided, "Hey, why not try payroll?" And then, because of the previous experience, grew into the HR role. 

Rio Peterson: Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. And Amber, what about you? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. So I kind of go back to the university as well, with my connection with ALPS. I took a human resources course, in which required you to network with a human resource professional. 

Rio Peterson: I love it. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I got connected with Liesel for a group project, and then we worked on that together, and then I was interested in being an intern, because then, I was very interested in HR after that class and everything. So then I did a summer internship, and then Liesel realized, "Oh my gosh, this girl's so much help." 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Amber Kuhlman: So then, she was like, "I need someone full-time." So then, she posted an opening for a full-time role, and then now, here we are, so yeah. 

Rio Peterson: Fantastic. So you both dazzled each other, and you were like, "This needs to continue. This is an excellent partnership." 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. 

Rio Peterson: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. So it sounds like we have a pretty good connection with the university. And I understand you two also just did some kind of speaking yesterday. You spoke with the HR Program, is that right? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. Is that something we do quite a lot of? Is ALPS pretty involved in working with the university and connecting with students? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I know Liesel has presented before. That was my first time presenting to a management course. However, we do often go to their career expos, so when we are hiring and recruiting, it's a great way to network with local folks and get connected with them, so it's great. 

Rio Peterson: Got it. Fantastic. So let's maybe shift a little bit and talk about kind of ALPS in general. What are some different career paths that somebody could explore at ALPS? I know we've got quite a lot of things. 

I know, Amber, you touched on them a little bit before. Maybe we can dig a little bit deeper into that. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. Amber, jump in when I'm off track. So for individuals within ALPS, when they come in and they've learned their job that they were hired into, we always encourage individuals to learn more about different departments, and we encourage them to do continuing education. If it's a department that they were hired into that doesn't require licensure, we encourage them to consider that. We encourage them to do continuing educations, whether it's a CPCU or an IEM, or any of the credentials that you can get in the insurance industry, we encourage them to do continuing education. 

So when a position in another department might open, they can be considered, if it's something that truly interests them that they want to try out. We start individuals, a lot of times, in our lead generation specialist roles, and then from there, they learn a lot about marketing, and sales, and account management, and the insurance, like how insurance actually works in the lingo and the terminology. So it's a fantastic place for individuals to start, and we usually implement an interim program within that lead generation specialist role to get people considering like, "Could insurance be for me?" That is, to be honest, your opportunities are only limited by what you put on yourself. I know that's cliche. Sorry to be cliche, but- 

Rio Peterson: I love it. I love it. 

Liesel Brink: It's one of those things where truly, if you were in sales and you were interested in underwriting, we would love for you to pursue what that might look like. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Liesel Brink: We do not put limits on individuals. In fact, we encourage individuals to become more involved in improvements that we're making within our product, and then also, just be more helpful to individuals in different roles, cross-education, which is super helpful. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, fantastic. And then, I'm kind of wondering, so lead gen, that's obviously part of our sales team, right? And so what I'm hearing is that's a really good place for someone to start. If they don't know anything maybe about insurance, they don't really ... Maybe they're fresh at a university, maybe they're just trying to figure things out. That's a good place for them to start, and to kind of get a broader overview of the rest of the functions of the company. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. The lead generation specialist role, our client processing specialist role, that's an administration position. And not to change the topic, Rio, and I know we'll come back to this, but what I appreciate most about the insurance industry is that you can learn it on the job while doing it. 

Rio Peterson: Yes. 

Liesel Brink: You don't need a college degree. College degrees are great, but you don't need a college degree to be successful in the insurance industry. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: That is the biggest takeaway I try to leave with individuals that I talk with. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, that is absolutely fantastic. It's really good to know that as well, because I think that's something that can really intimidate a lot of folks like, "Maybe I don't have the right education, the right credentials," so it seems very accessible industry to get into. I know for myself, I mean, coming from the tech industry, I did not know anything about insurance, and let me tell you, I have learned all the things, and that is, I can definitely attest to what you just said, I have learned them all on the fly as well. So that's really important, I think, for people to keep in mind is that you can be taught. You can learn it and go forth and achieve big things. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: And if I may, I would share that it's not always easy to break into the insurance industry, however, if you align the skill sets that you already have with the skill sets that are necessary within the insurance industry, such as detail-orientedness, follow-through, dedication to the job at hand, if you align the skill set that you currently have with those needs, you can get into the insurance industry. 

Rio Peterson: Got it. What would be some kind of obstacles or some things that would make it difficult for somebody to break into the industry, is maybe not knowing anyone who's already in the industry, just kind of not having any knowledge of it? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, I- 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I would say not having the knowledge. I don't think, especially coming from the university, they don't really say push insurance or mention it, really, as a career path. That would be a good one. So I would think the biggest obstacle would, for sure be just not knowing it's out there and kind of where you can go from there, for sure. 

Rio Peterson: And it's kind of surprising to me that they don't push that or even recommend it, because to me, insurance is pretty good industry. It's pretty fail-safe, like recession-proof when times are tough, everybody gets insurance. Everyone needs insurance, like it's really- 

Amber Kuhlman: I think there's a misconception with insurance, that it's all sales. 

Rio Peterson: Yes. 

Amber Kuhlman: So that's another one, I mean, but realizing there's office positions as well, like what Liesel and I do, HR within insurance, or finance, or marketing. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Amber Kuhlman: It's all needed, so yeah. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, claims, we hire lots of attorneys as well, and so yeah, there's lots of different options out there, absolutely. So what would you suggest maybe for someone who was looking to get into insurance, like say they were like, "That's the thing I want to do. I want to find out. I want to break into that industry." 

What would be a good way? I know, Liesel, you mentioned kind of aligning the skill set you already have. Would you recommend maybe reaching out to recruiters or HR staff such as yourself, people, operations, et cetera? 

Liesel Brink: So that's a great question, because different individuals, like the hiring teams, different companies think of things differently. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Liesel Brink: For me, I would be happy for anyone to connect with me on LinkedIn. That is a fantastic way to start your network. You can connect with one individual, and then from there, you actually can learn more about other individuals within the industry. They post fantastic things from, I believe it's in invest.org, and how you can use the skills that you already have in the insurance industry. Networking outside of the computer, of the internet, it was also very helpful. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Liesel Brink: I know once in a while, we go to our business after hours for the chamber, and there are a variety of different industries, industry specific organizations that you can connect with, especially in more urban areas, so that would be a consideration. Amber, what am I missing? I know a lot, so ... 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I mean, I would say, just kind of going back to the university, connecting with their resources. Often, nearby universities have a lot of connections with surrounding companies, and who knows, they might be an insurance company, so ... 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you both mentioned the career, the job fairs as well. It's probably a good place to make some connections. Fantastic. I know for myself, I also knew someone who worked at ALPS, and was able to make the move that way, so definitely a lot to be said for putting yourself out there and meeting people and making those connections. 

So let's kind of shift a bit back to you two, and tell me a little bit of like, "What are some of the things you like best about your roles, and maybe also working at ALPS specifically?" Amber, you want to start? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, I can start. 

Rio Peterson: So I'm going to put you on the screen. 

Amber Kuhlman: No, that's okay. Some things about my role that I like is really focused on the wellness side initiative that we strive for. As far as work-life balance or wellness program, really, making it a place that people want to come to and enjoy working with their fellow coworkers is kind of, yeah, a big part of it, for me. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely, Amber. The people are great to work with, what continues for me to bring me back every day, but also, for me, the type of work that I get to do, it's never the same thing every day. The process might be the same, but the individuals are different, the circumstances are different, and so that truly is what the variety is what I enjoy the most as far as human resources and specifically ALPS. 

Rio Peterson: Got it. Fantastic. So talking a little bit about the wellness program, was that in place? I know, Amber, you've been here about a year and a half, but, Liesel, was that in place when you started at ALPS? 

Liesel Brink: So when I started back in 2015, it was not in place. We implemented little things here and there. At that time, I believe it was once a year, we tried to do something fun, and then it went to a quarter. Every quarter, we tried to do something, and then we aligned with a tech company, and then they offered physical, mental, emotional, and then also financial wellness options, and so that kind of started us off. I believe that was in 2017, and then the tech company decided that it wasn't what they wanted to focus on, and so we then went to a homegrown kind of wellness program. That is what Amber has definitely made her own over the last year and a half, so ... 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, fantastic. Amber, do you want to tell us a little bit more about the program, kind of what kinds of benefits we offer, kind of how you come up with all these awesome ideas, because I know there's always something great going on in that program? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, yeah. I get my awesome ideas from all the subscriptions I have. I will say, all the wellness networks, for sure. 

Rio Peterson: Awesome. 

Amber Kuhlman: Awesome. Can't take credit for them all, but no, it's great. I love planning. I try and do a monthly highlighted activity that focuses on kind of those four functions that Liesel touched on, financial, mental, emotional, and physical, so I really try to get those all in the mix. They're all equally important. 

So each quarter, I focus on one of those, and we award our employees for staying healthy in many different ways, so there is an incentive a little bit there, but they get gift cards. It's a point-based system. They get gift cards in PTO quarterly, so there's that, but it's always really nice when we hear the feedback from employees that stop by and really enjoyed a walking challenge that we had going, or earlier last summer, we did a stair challenge, and seeing everyone come up the stairs as opposed to the elevator was great. And yeah, I love seeing that, so it's good. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, it's fantastic, and it seems like that's something I noticed right from the get-go when I started at ALPS. Everyone's very engaged with the wellness program. It's a very big hit, and just the benefits offered in it are really fantastic and very thorough. It's definitely another benefit to working at ALPS. Just putting it out there if anyone seconds, so ... 

Liesel Brink: But if I may, one of the important wellness aspects I find too, is the financial wellness that we focus on. 

Rio Peterson: Yes. 

Liesel Brink: We've partnered with a fantastic company, Best Money Moves out of Illinois with Ilyce Glink. She is the CEO and founder. They have come up with some fantastic opportunities for employees to learn more about how to save. They do monthly webinars. We've learned to, over the years, that if you help individuals understand their financials, that it could lead to less stress within the employee population. So I just want to do a shout-out to Amber for continuing that program with them because it's definitely very helpful. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, absolutely. And financial wellness tends to be something that isn't normally included in wellness, but you're so right, it is really deeply connected to a lot of the stress people experience, because financial literacy is something that we're not really taught in schools in any capacity, so it's really, really important to be able to provide that peace of mind and those tools to everyone. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Liesel Brink: One of the other benefits that we've come up with, well, that most companies provide is the Employee Assistance program, where individuals have access to talk to professionals for personal or professional reasons. If things are going on or they want to bounce ideas off of someone, that's not their supervisor or their family, we offer an Employee Assistance program that has an in-network list of providers that we can go to for free visits, but we've also implemented a reimbursement if our employees want to go to out-of-network providers, and that was a huge, huge implementation last year. Something brand new that we hadn't heard a lot of companies doing, so we're like, "Let's try it," and it seems to be going well, so ... 

Rio Peterson: Fantastic, and you've gotten ... I'm guessing you've heard some good feedback about that program? Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: So we've heard a little feedback, right? It's an anonymous program, so it's one of those things where we do get some numbers about, like if they have an intake, but we get to know other information other than that. So it's great that we are giving utilization. We have, I believe, 13% utilization rate, Amber, where the national is four to six usually. 

Rio Peterson: Whoo, that's fantastic. Love that people are taking care of themselves and that they're able to do so. 

Liesel Brink: Exactly. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, it's fantastic. So what are some of the other kind of benefits and perks that we've got here, working at ALPS? I know there's quite a long list. Do you guys want to take us through a couple of them? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. One of my favorites, I'll highlight, is the Lifestyle Spending Account. Coming from a different company, that's a benefit I haven't had before. So the Lifestyle Spending Account, ALPS gives us funds monthly that we can utilize towards a variety of things, whether it's an event ticket to go to the movies, or maybe a concert. Pet insurance can go towards that, or just your typical gym membership, so it's great. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, my standing desk. Thank you guys. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yes. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, I'm a big fan of that program too. 

Liesel Brink: Nice. For me, we have an Adoption Assistance Program. We also offer discount interest rates through SoFi, and we provide a high-yield savings options through that SoFi option too. We do a 6% match at 100% for our 401(k), so that is something, and we're fully vested as of our first contribution. So for me, those things have been very beneficial for ALPS employees. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. And it is something that I've really noticed about ALPS too, is that as an organization, we are very invested in our employees, not just well, their employees, but in their futures as well, whether that is moving on to the next company or into retirement. I mean, I know that a large number of our staff has been at ALPS for 15, 20, 25 years, so it's really, I don't know, reassuring and nice to see that we are so invested in everyone regardless of where they're at in their career path. I don't think a lot of companies think about that, so ... 

Liesel Brink: Yeah, Amber does a great- 

Rio Peterson: It's [inaudible 00:27:46]- 

Liesel Brink: Yeah. Amber does a great job with the training and development, and ensuring that our continuing education classes are getting credentialed for continuing education. It's one way we support our employees in licensure, and then we also encourage individuals and have supported them in earning their additional certifications of their choices. 

Rio Peterson: And I think we do student loan assistance as well, don't we? 

Liesel Brink: We do have a Student Loan Assistance program. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: And we- 

Rio Peterson: Then, we do all the things. There's too many things to list. We do everything. 

Liesel Brink: I mean, we do employee photos, fun photos, so they're not the stuffy headshots, which is super fun. We have an employee that has a hobby to take photos, and they've been so kind to provide us with photos of employees, so that's super fun to do. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, and they're so well done too. They're really nicely shot. That's fantastic. So we've got just a couple more minutes here. I think, first of all, what are some of the roles that are currently open at ALPS, if anyone out there listening is interested in checking us out? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I'll highlight the business development representative that we have open, specifically outbound. So we are looking for individual to come on and do sales. So you're interested in that, definitely connect with us on LinkedIn. It is also posted on LinkedIn, so check it out. But yeah, I'll let Liesel highlight the other one. 

Liesel Brink: Yeah. We are looking for a claims attorney. This position does require an individual to have their Juris Doctorate, so that is an important aspect of this. We will train an individual and get them licensed as an adjuster. However, we do need them to have that Juris Doctorate. We do hope and ask that they've had five years of experience working in the field of law, because what they'll be doing is helping our insureds during their time of need when a claim actually happens. 

So understanding a little bit about how things work in the practice of law is super helpful in this role. Happy to talk to someone about that. If they have more interest, they're welcome to reach out to us. I don't know if you want me to put my email, lbrink@alpsinsurance.com. Happy to have that conversation. 

Yeah, but if someone already has previous claims experience, we'd love to have that talk too. So yeah, reach out. Yeah, or if you live in Montana or want to move to Montana, it's a great opportunity. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, Missoula is fantastic. It is a really fantastic spot. And so we've got, LinkedIn is a good place to reach out. We have a career section on the website, yup, so we can reach on your website. 

Liesel Brink: Correct. 

Rio Peterson: Can reach out to Liesel directly at lbrink@alpsinsurance.com. And yeah, we hope that you consider a career in insurance. It's a really fantastic industry, and I mean, I'm a little bit biased, but ALPS, in particular, is a pretty incredible place to work. So that's my two cents about the whole thing. Is there anything else? 

Liesel Brink: We agree. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yes. 

Rio Peterson: Is there anything else you two would like to add before we sign off? 

Amber Kuhlman: No. Thanks for tuning in. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. So well, thank you both for joining me. This has been fantastic. And for those of you listening, we will catch you next month for the next installment of In Brief. Again, I'm Rio Peterson, and thanks for tuning in. 

—

Transcript: 

Hello, I am Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Of course, that's where our home office is, and if you ever get out to Missoula, you should stop by. It is a beautiful, beautiful area. 

It's a time of year where you get to thinking about all kinds of things. We have a year coming to an end, and boy, what a crazy year this has been, huh? And a new year starting. And these are the times where at least I do, and I don't think I'm alone or unique in this, just start to do some processing, start to think about what was good about the year, what things need to be done. And also, I've been with ALPS now coming up in 26 years, and I've been thinking more and more about what's next for me. Again, I've got a lot of years left, God willing and knock on wood here that ALPS will want to continue to have me. 

But I want to say a lot of years, I don't know, five, six, maybe eight more years of work here, but I also think about retiring and what's next. And there are interesting things you start to think about just looking at all kinds of stuff. And I won't get into my sort of what's personally going on with me, but it does bring up an important topic, and that's the topic of succession planning. And I want to talk a little bit more about this in some interesting ways. It's something I've been talking about writing on for years. 

I can simply say it doesn't happen overnight. I'm in a community where I see lots of people. We're in a 55 plus community now down here in Florida actually. It's been just a wonderful, wonderful decision for us. But I see a lot of people in retirement. I see some that have been very successful and I have seen and visited with some where it's not working. There's different drivers behind why retirement happened for some. Some had happened earlier than they thought, think health issues as an example. Others are still very, very active in second or third careers. Just because they retired doesn't mean... They retired from their profession perhaps, but they're still doing all kinds of other things. 

So I want to talk about this. The first thing I want to say is regardless of your age and where you are in terms of your practice and your career in law, it's never too early to start. We've been dealing with the transition issues and decisions and financially restructuring for, oh gosh, now it's been a good six to eight years easy. And of course, we're blessed that we have the ability to retire at some point here. Again, I can say I've worked with lots and lots of lawyers, and I mean that literally who are not financially in a situation where retirement ever seems likely, and it doesn't need to be that way. So I just encourage you to start early, particularly on this, just the savings side, if nothing else, but okay, back to succession planning. And we're going to also explore backup attorneys in this context, which is the central issue I want to focus on here. 

But before we get there, being a lawyer is hard. I understand that. And it can be quite a challenge. It's an ever-changing landscape, if you will, in terms of the introduction of AI and how that's impacting things, but also different types of clients and different types of matters and all sorts of things can go on. And as some of you may know, if you've followed me over the years, whether on the blog or podcast, I've been at this a long time and I've done a lot of consulting and I have worked with lawyers that have dealt with cancer as an example. And one lawyer in particular was so involved out of necessity, don't get me wrong here, but so involved in his cancer treatment, having to travel and be gone extensively for chemotherapy. And the practice was being neglected in very, very significant ways. And there was some fallout unfortunately to that. 

I have been involved with numerous lawyers that have had, let's just say, challenges with competency. When there's dementia, which is, again, it's just a very serious problem with our profession. It's not unique to lawyers, but there's a lot of issues I've seen over the years that have led to claims and all kinds of things, unexpected things happen in life, in other words, but it's just wild in terms of all the crazy things I've seen. 

So I want to, again, to underscore, we need to think about succession planning. This is not something we do, again, in the twilight of one's career. I really see it as a strategic and forward thinking approach. That's what we need to be thinking about. It's going to benefit you regards to, it's obviously more important if you're in a solo space, but it's important even if you're in a small firm or even larger firms. Now, sometimes the problems, the issues that come into play as you get into larger firms are a bit different than what you're dealing with in small firms, but we do need to prepare for the unexpected. It is about, at the end of the day, taking care of our clients. 

So let's move forward here and talk about some other reasons why I see this as mitigating risk, preserving client relationships, again, thinking more importantly in the solo space, but again, absolutely not limited to this, but if we are unexpectedly taken out by a car crash, I've got a story about that. Won't bore with it today, bore you with it today, but someone ended up in a coma for quite an extended time, and a number of matters were neglected. So I see this as a competency issue thinking about rule 1.1. A diligence issue, 1.3, and there's some language in the rules, particularly in commentary and at least some of the states and in the ABA model rules that talk about the diligence mandates and attorney moving forward with some type of succession planning. It's just not optional. 

So I see it as an ethical obligation. I see it as taking care of one's career, reputational kinds of things. Particularly if something goes wrong, something unexpected happens, I see it as taking care of clients, building relationships, because we can talk about it. So it's about ensuring coverage in the event of some short-term health issues, but it's also about taking care of things in the unexpected deaths or long-term disability scenario too. Again, we could talk for quite some time about stories of how this has just been a problem. 

So I hope that kind of helps. I know it's a little bit of a ramble here and I've got all kinds of things going on in my head, but I really hope that you begin to get a sense of the importance of succession planning from a business perspective, from an ethical perspective and from a malpractice perspective. 

Let's move more now toward really what I want to focus on and center on. And it's really looking at a basic decision of backup attorneys. Now, before we dig into this, one of the things that I have found over the years is some attorneys are reluctant when asked to be a backup attorney. They're reluctant to agree to do so for a variety of reasons. But two of the more common concerns at times, I think, also used as excuses are I've got my own full-time practice, and how in the world can I handle two practices at once? Well, a successor attorney/backup attorney isn't necessarily charged with running a full second practice. In the backup situation, you're just covering for somebody for emergencies. Well, they're on a two-week vacation or whatever it might be, or whether they're in the hospital for a week or so for some immersion kind of thing. If it's an unexpected death, you're really being brought in to wind up the practice and oversee that. You're not running a full practice, you're not charged with taking on all of these clients and immediately doubling the size if your practice. 

And something else to think about whether you're agreeing to do this, being asked to do this and thinking about agreeing or doing the asking. The backup attorney/successor attorney situation doesn't have to be limited to just one individual. I have seen some situations that have been very, very successful in terms of there was an untimely death. And what happened was, for instance, a group of three, four, I've even seen five attorneys will agree to be there for each other and we have this group. And so if I'm the person in this group that passes unexpectedly, the other four can share the load. One might be responsible for putting out fires, one might be responsible for contacting clients, getting that letter that goes out, et cetera, taking care of those kinds of things. So you just split, you split the workload. Can make it very, very easy. 

The other excuse that I hear at times is the, well, is my malpractice going to cover me? Is there some... And again, I don't want to be sued for all this stuff. Well, first off, understand, again, in the winding up of the practice, you're really not doing anything legally. You're administering the duties of transition of client notification, et cetera. Now, I guess, at times, if you pick up a matter and once you make it your own, of course, your policy is going to be in play. But I could see there could be some situations. We try to figure things out, put out fires. Maybe something goes a little wrong here or in the backup situation. I can't say 100% for sure because policies differ between carriers, et cetera, et cetera, and the circumstances are going to dictate. But here's how I look at it. 

A carrier wants to make sure that when something goes wrong, again, an emergency illness, we like people taking vacations to stay fresh because burnout leads to depression and addictions and all this. We want to see lawyers take care of themselves. So getting some vacation time is a good thing. But if a backup attorney or successor attorney isn't trying to help, good Lord, it would make no sense for a carrier to say, I'm not going to defend this, or we're not going to get involved. It's just not a decision I would think any carrier is going to be feeling good about making. That's not in their best interest. Maybe that's another way to look at it. So I just don't think the coverage issue is as significant as some want to make it. 

There is language, I should say, in a number of policies that will describe or are in terms of under the definition of insured, will include a description of attorneys who are stepping in to help administer the winding down of a practice. There for backup. As long as they are doing so under the authority of an agreement of some sort, that kind of thing. 

Okay, so let's put that outta way or put that out of the way. So the next thing, and I've been asked at times, what do I do? How do I go about selecting a backup attorney? And this really gets to the heart of the issue. If you're working within a firm setting, hopefully there's someone else within the firm that has the skills and et cetera that can step in. If you are one that's, and again, typically it's going to be in a small firm setting that has some unique skills, well, you're going to have to find somebody outside of the firm and name because if no one else in the firm has the ability, that doesn't really solve the problem. So you might need to look external, but let's talk about that in the context of the solo attorney. 

And really what you need to do is just try to identify someone who is going to be competent. That is your obligation. So they have to have the skillset necessary to step in and understand what's going on in your practice, both as a backup attorney if ever needed, and then again, as a successor, should that ever come into play as well. They need to have good communication skills. They need to be experienced in the practice. And we need to think about, I guess, conflict concerns too. They should be somebody that isn't going to bring to the table or have all kinds of conflicts in light of their practice and yours. It can't be somebody that you're constantly on the other side of, is constantly opposing counsel to many of your clients. That's going to be problematic. So we just need to think about, again, is this person competent, diligent, a good communicator, as conflict free as possible, et cetera? And that can really be a good thing. Okay? 

And I guess the other thing, needs to be somebody that's going to have the time or the ability to make the time to step into this role. If someone is constantly on the road just by virtue of their practice and being available on not necessarily a minute's notice, but being available at times, if that's going to be problematic, that might not be the right fit. So again, we just need to look, does this work for the individual that you are asking? 

When we finally identify the individual that we think is going to be a good fit and this individual agrees or group of individuals, please don't overlook the importance of letting key staff know that this step has been taken care of, who this individual or group of individuals are, when and how they are to be reached so that the staff in the event of emergency know what to do. Again, I could tell stories where staff had no idea that there was a backup attorney, had no idea what they were supposed to do in a situation like this. The was a new receptionist and that was the only position she was charged with and she had no clue, was not really experienced in the legal profession or working in the legal profession and just sat there taking calls day after day. And a number of claims rose out of that because it was person injury plaintiff attorney who was in a coma for a while and some statutes ran during this time and she just sat there, had no clue. So again, we need to let people know. 

Some other things to think about. You might want to have a formal written agreement with the backup attorney successor. One and the same in most instances or group, and that's document or at least outline if you will the terms of the engagement, the scope, the responsibilities. There may or may not be compensation here. And you have to figure out if there is going to be some compensation, and particularly in the succession plan, successor attorney coming in and winding up a very busy practice, that can take some work and some time. And you can deal with covering those expenses in a variety of ways, not the least of which might be some type of key person life insurance, but there are ways to deal with this. But I like the idea of having some type of agreement so that we're all on the same page and really understand what the expectations are. 

And a number of times too, this can be a two-way street, if I ask you to be my backup attorney and you agree, and it might be, well, I agree to do the same for you. And so we can have these discussions and really talk about what are the roles going to be. 

So it's also worth letting your malpractice carrier know. There are some carriers out there, particularly in the solo space that will request knowledge of, or you need to report who is this, other carriers mandate or require it. They may not agree to insure you perhaps in a formal designation because they want to know who to contact if something happens here again. 

Some things to think about in terms of preparation. I would periodically review the plan and the agreement just because things change over time. And as you think about that, here's this other side not coming in. We've talked about, here are the roles, responsibilities, what we're anticipating, what we think we should be doing for each other, et cetera. But we should also perhaps have some type of writing. Could be a letter kept in a drawer somewhere, staff knows about, and this is primarily for the succession plan situation, but you need to think about setting forth the things that the successor attorney needs to know to run your practice, to be able to wind down your practice. 

So where's the calendar? What are the passwords to key programs or applications or laptops? That kind of thing. What about signature authority on the trust account? I don't want to see money locked up. And there are different ways to deal with that. Could even be just a contingent signature authority agreement of some sort. So there are a number of things you can do here, but I have seen situations where an attorney passed and none of this was done, and a lot of time and money was needlessly spent on trying to literally hack into computers because that's where all the information was and no one had any idea how to get in. So there has to be some ways to do that. 

And here's an interesting thought on this one. You can set up emergency access to password safes. More and more of us, if you're not using a password safe for cybersecurity reasons, boy, now's the time. That's a conversation kept for a whole nother day. But there's one way to do some of this. You can have emergency access and set that up. It varies in terms of what you can do and how you do it with these different password managers, but it's just another thing to think about and nothing to look at. There's all kinds of spins on this, but I'm hoping you have found something of value here and some encouragement to move forward. 

The one final thought I have is at the beginning I was talking about, well, there's this piece of client communication, and I want to take that just a little bit further. I also mentioned reputation can be an issue here and the failure unit to have a backup attorney leading to mistakes because you never get out and take a vacation or take care of yourself and prioritize wellness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You can get run down, burned out, depressed. Reputation can suffer in that way. Reputation can suffer because there is no plan. And you're in the hospital for four, six weeks in a coma, going back to that one story that I've been alluding to, and your reputation is dead there. 

But there's another angle to this reputation piece, and I see it as communicating the decision. I have some language and you're welcome to email me or look it up. I have some of this on our website, but if you have trouble finding it, you can let me know. But consider putting some language in your engagement agreement. And it might say something, I'm just going to read a short little paragraph as an example. But think about the message that you're giving. So I'm a new, our potential prospective client coming in, looking and all that, we're talking and I see this language, or you might even highlight it for me in the agreement, and it'll say something like this: 

While I strive to deliver excellent legal services to each and every client, I also have an ethical obligation to protect your interests during any extended absences such as a vacation and illness or any event of my unexpected death or disability. To accomplish this, I have named, of course, you insert the name for your backup attorney as my backup attorney who will be available during any extended absences or will step in to assist in the closing of my practice, should that ever prove necessary. I will personally provide you advanced notice of any planned absences, and my office staff or backup attorney will contact you with information on how to proceed should any unexpected event ever occur. 

I guess I'm a risk guy, okay, I get that. But I got to tell you, if I saw something like that, I would say this attorney is really thinking through the issues and doing everything he or she can to see that his or her clients are taken care of. And he's really thought this through. I want to work with someone like that. Wouldn't you? That's demonstrating commitment, loyalty, diligence, competency. And that just speaks volumes to me. So there's this other reputational angle to it that's saying, he's thinking about this, she's thinking about this. I like this. I'm going to work with them. Then you deliver. Man, I'm even more excited and I'm going to go out and just tell people. How do you think referrals... Referrals come on reputation and good work. Good reputation, you provide great service and all of that, referrals are going to come. So I think there's an angle to that as well. 

So I've been rambling on here for I don't know how long, but I hope you found something of value. I really believe that it's hard to do this at times. It's hard to get started. But I really do believe in the value of this. And once you have this taken care of, I think you're going to sleep better. I think it's going to be one less thing to worry about, and you can concentrate and focus more clearly on some other things in terms of just taking care of your clients. So name that backup attorney if you haven't. Name that successor attorney if you haven't. 

And once you do, please, please take the time. Take advantage of what you've just done and make sure you're getting that extended vacation from time to time to stay fresh, to nurture the significant, important, I'm sorry, the important and significant support systems in your life. Go on a cruise with your spouse. Go visit the grandkids and children for a week, whatever it might be, because wellness is so, so important in our profession too. It just helps you stay sharp. 

That's it for me. I hope you found something of value, and please don't hesitate to reach out if there's anything I can ever do for any of you. You do not need to be an ALPS insured to visit with me. There's no costs or fee to visit with me. If there's something I can do, hey, I'm here. My email address is mbass@alpsinsurance, ALPS Insurance, one word .com. 

Have a good one, all. 

Bye-bye. 

Transcript: 

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at Alps, and welcome to another episode of Alps In Brief, that podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. As you can tell, it's the end of the year and I'm trying to get ready and set for the holiday celebrations and whatnot, just having a little fun. 

So I thought about what to do for this month's podcast. I thought, why not share my 25 holiday risk tips as a countdown. And these are risk tips for 2023, the end of 2023, and maybe we'll do this every year. Who knows? We'll see. Let's jump right in, shall we? 

Number one, don't wait for that after Christmas sale. Make sure your firm's security software and operating systems on terms of all the devices, the servers, the computers, the laptops, everything. These updates need to be current systems need to be patched, and the reason is I just want to make sure you're properly protected during all of that online holiday shopping. 

Number two, the turkey helpline. I remember back in the day, they used to have these shows you could listen to, and my memory was it's on the radio, but you could listen to people calling in. They record some of these crazy calls to the Turkey hotline. I remember a woman very upset that her bird tasted like soap. And apparently what she had done was read in the instructions, you should clean your turkey before cooking it, then rinse it out, that kind of stuff. 

And apparently she used a lot dish washing soap and that's going to taste like soap. That's not how you clean a turkey, but I always got a kick out of that. But sometimes things don't work out quite as planned when it comes to the holiday bird, and some people really don't know what they're doing with these turkeys. And there is a turkey hotline out there to help you out, use it. 

Well, in a similar vein, if you have no idea how to properly secure your smartphones or other devices, the files that you have in cloud storage, even your home router, if you're using it for work, rest assured there's a support line for you too, and that's just called your IT support. Whoever he/she/they may be, please don't hesitate to reach out and get the help that you need. 

Number three, untangling the lights. As you search your attic or your basement, wherever you have your holiday decoration stored, remember to protect and organize your firm's virtual storage space so your digital files don't end up sort of in a similar mess. I remember year after year for a lot of years, trying to untangle all of these light strings and checking for the bulbs, etc. It's just a headache, just a headache. So, let's try not to let that happen with our client files that are virtually stored. 

Number four, make a list and check it twice. And before taking on a new matter, make certain that you and your client are in total agreement on the scope of representation, and that might even include discussing what you're not going to do. And then of course, make sure that you thoroughly document all that in writing because after all, memories really can be short. I mean, even Santa, after all, why do you think he has a list. 

Number five, up on the house top. Some of us excel at navigating a snow covered roof to hang the lights. Boy, there's some guys around here, I've seen this here, I'm thinking, these guys don't excel and you're just worried that dickens that somebody's going to take a fall. But on others, you really do need to learn that the annual trip to the ER can get expensive. 

The point of all this is no one excels at everything. Learn to say no when you really know that you should don't dabble and don't take on clients that you can't work well with. Otherwise, the control of your professional life is going to end up in someone else's hands and that someone else could easily be a problem client that just isn't worth it. 

Number six, let's talk about Santa's laptop. If you're traveling for business or a family gathering, always carry your laptop with you rather than checking it with your baggage, because sensitive information, perhaps your naughty and nice list, could end up missing. I really can share over the years when I look at some of the cyber claims that we've had, stolen laptops, lost laptops are not uncommon. So really try to stay in control of that as you travel. 

Wrapping the gifts, when it's time to wrap up a client matter, tell the client what your file retention policy is and document what they want to have happen to their file at the end of your file retention period. This is one of the most common calls that I get to this day. What do we do with these old files? Because we've never dealt with it. We've never informed clients what to do or what our policy is. And taking care of that at the time you know where your client is and you're closing a file can really solve a lot of headaches down the road. Or I should say prevent a lot of headaches down the road. 

Number eight, to Grandma's house we go. If you need to check in with the office on your way to wherever you're traveling, remember to use a VPN when traveling. This is especially important if you're going to be using open public wifi, if you're using a hotel signal or even a signal at a friend or family's home, you need to encrypt your data stream in these situations. It's just essential as I see it. 

Number nine, remember the reason for the season. Providing pro bono legal services is really a wonderful way to not only bring a little holiday cheer to someone else, but it really may just change their life. Don't minimize it. Give back. 

Number 10, hang your stockings with care. According to the most recent ABA profile of legal malpractice claims, almost 52% of reported claims in recent years were based on a substantive misstep, such as a failure to know the law or properly apply the law, and conflicts of interest. So don't dabble and don't short shrift your conflict resolution process unless of course you enjoy finding coal in your stocking. 

Number 11, no two snowflakes are alike. As with client expectations, no two clients are going to be alike either. Really take the time, learn to listen, ask the questions, try to determine each and every client's unique legal needs as well as their desired outcomes in order for you to meet their needs as best as you possibly can. 

Number 12, don't become Scrooge. If a client becomes delinquent on their account, investigate early, and either work out an alternative arrangement or get out if you can. Allowing someone's past due balance to soar when they are already unable to pay and then suing them for your fees when you're finished could result in a haunting tale of a malpractice counterclaim. Not fun, not good. 

Number 13, bells will be ringing, while a wonderful sound this time of year. Be careful not to have an alarm sound due to a shortfall in your trust account. Never allow the proceeds of a check to be dispersed prior to that check clearing. And remember, there's a difference between a bank saying, "The proceeds are available," and those funds being collected in good funds. And often that difference is five to seven business days and can even be longer in some instances. Caution is in order. 

Number 14, look out for the Grinch. Take the time to ask what can be learned from an experience with one of those problem clients, once the representation of course has ended. The failure to do so often means that another Grinch could be in your future. If you don't learn, you're likely to make the same intake mistake again. Ask the questions, look for the learning. 

Number 15, not a creature with stirring. To make certain no unwanted creatures are stirring in your office network, confirm that everyone in the office knows to never open an email or click on a link sent from an unknown source. Better yet, institute an ongoing mandatory social engineering training program that everyone must attend, everyone who works at your firm, including you. 

Number 16, let it snow. Clients will tend to more readily pay bills that are sent on a regular basis and that provide detail on each charge. Tell your story in the process of creating and presenting your bill. There is a huge difference as an example between saying, "Research five hours," and "Research case law on inviting nuisance, five hours." Let the client know the value they are getting, what they are getting, for the money that they're being charged. 

17, the ghost of files past. When it comes to computer files, delete is not always what it seems. If you don't want the recovery of deleted files rattling around late at night, you really need to electronically shred all that data by using a program that will overwrite it, thus making it unrecoverable. So before you recycle those phones or donate some laptops or whatever it might be, don't just delete files. You need to digitally erase them. 

Number 18, It's a Wonderful Life. George Bailey, if you recall, saw what his town would've been like if he were never born, such a great film. If you're a solo, however, what would happen if you were no longer around? Name a successor attorney to ensure that your clients and their matters will be properly cared for should the unexpected ever happen to you. Then sleep better knowing that you did the right thing. Succession planning folks is absolutely an essential obligation as I see it. Please take the time to do so if you already have it done so. 

Number 19, The Little Drummer Boy, just listening to some music last night. It was that time of year, once Thanksgiving rolls around, my wife has a rule, Christmas music is it until the end of Christmas. But bang that drum to get your message across. Make sure your colleagues are in step with the confidentiality rule. No files, for example, should be left accessible after hours. 

No one should use open public wifi networks or free email accounts like Gmail for professional purposes. And don't talk about client matters in public places. Sometimes maybe just a little review. Get the staff together for a 10 or 15 minute meeting over the lunch hour, have a little pizza or something. Maybe do this monthly. But just these gentle friendly reminders really can help keep the rules and our obligations fresh in our minds. That can be very, very helpful and very beneficial. 

Number 20, how about those New Year's resolutions? Enjoy the holiday party season more by learning what callback phishing is and how not to fall prey. Then relish in knowing that you now have a cybersecurity leg up on most of the other attorneys in the room. You really will. If the FBI just issued an alert talking about callback phishing, so binging it, Google it, or you might even go to a wonderful site. This is just an excellent, excellent resource. 

It is Know Be4, K-N-O-W-B-E, the number four, knowbe4.com, and look at some of their resources that are available for free. You could search callback phishing on their blog, and I assure you, you'll get some information and it's well worth knowing about. 

21, the night before CLE deadline, fulfill your CLE requirements on time. You might look with the Alps. We have a lot of CLE out there, online, on demand, and if you're not familiar with it, it's www.alpsinsurance, one word A-L-P-S, insurance, one word, .com/cle. After all, that December 31st deadline for some of us is fast approaching. 

22, setting out Santa's cookies. When do I remember those days? Our kids are all grown and adult now, and we are Brady family, but we had five kids in our blended family, and I do remember, and it was a lot of fun, setting out the cookies and doing all the things that we did. For many families, this is one of the last things done before the kids are tucked in and that little detail counts. 

Similarly, once a matter is closed. Don't overlook the last important detail of properly preparing a file for storage. Use a file closing checklist to make certain that all the closing tasks are taken care of. If you don't have a file closing checklist, I invite you to get one of ours. I have one available on our website. Again, it's alpsinsurance.com, and you can click under resources and there's a section there for sample forms, a sample checklist, and you will find a file closing checklist there. Perhaps that might be helpful to you. 

23, giving thanks. You really are being honored. Every time a client places a new matter in your capable, competent hands. Honor them back by sending a thank you note at the conclusion of every matter. Just say, "Thanks, it's been a pleasure." You may find that referral and repeat work just starts to go up and maybe even soar, because you understand and remember who has hired who. 

24. Give yourself a gift, and this is so, so important in my mind. Remember, one of the best ways to serve your clients well and truly to keep your practice thriving is to prioritize taking care of yourself. After all, gingerbread, which I love, always tastes better when life is good. Take care of yourself, and don't forget to nourish the relationships that you have with your support systems, whoever they may be. You want them around years from now as well too. So take that time.